How Do These Airborne Specs Look?

Discussion in 'rec.bicycles.marketplace' started by NYC XYZ, Jul 22, 2005.

  1. NYC XYZ

    NYC XYZ Guest

    Vis-a-vis the price, anyway -- $1,300 for 19-lb. bikes!!

    http://www.airborne.net/eready/janette/Store/05LXTI-special.asp

    http://www.airborne.net/eready/janette/store/05TB-special.asp


    The first link is to a TITANIUM frame upright, while the second is for
    the Thunderbolt with an aluminum frame. Oddly enough, the aluminum
    bike weighs slightly less than the titanium one?? Components, I
    suppose -- so what do y'all think of 'em?

    For example...caliper brakes?? 9-speed cassette??

    Which one would you get, if these were the choices?

    How do they compare to your current bike -- etc.?
     
    Tags:


  2. NYC XYZ

    NYC XYZ Guest

    Actually, they're $1,200 -- hot deal?

    And how's this seat?

    http://pedalpusherbikeshop.com/site/itemdetails.cfm?ID=438&Catalog=39&sort=3rdcharacter


    TIA!



    NYC XYZ wrote:
    > Vis-a-vis the price, anyway -- $1,300 for 19-lb. bikes!!
    >
    > http://www.airborne.net/eready/janette/Store/05LXTI-special.asp
    >
    > http://www.airborne.net/eready/janette/store/05TB-special.asp
    >
    >
    > The first link is to a TITANIUM frame upright, while the second is for
    > the Thunderbolt with an aluminum frame. Oddly enough, the aluminum
    > bike weighs slightly less than the titanium one?? Components, I
    > suppose -- so what do y'all think of 'em?
    >
    > For example...caliper brakes?? 9-speed cassette??
    >
    > Which one would you get, if these were the choices?
    >
    > How do they compare to your current bike -- etc.?
     
  3. Rich Clark

    Rich Clark Guest

    "NYC XYZ" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Vis-a-vis the price, anyway -- $1,300 for 19-lb. bikes!!
    >
    > http://www.airborne.net/eready/janette/Store/05LXTI-special.asp
    >
    > http://www.airborne.net/eready/janette/store/05TB-special.asp
    >
    >
    > The first link is to a TITANIUM frame upright, while the second is for
    > the Thunderbolt with an aluminum frame. Oddly enough, the aluminum
    > bike weighs slightly less than the titanium one?? Components, I
    > suppose -- so what do y'all think of 'em?
    >
    > For example...caliper brakes?? 9-speed cassette??
    >
    > Which one would you get, if these were the choices?
    >
    > How do they compare to your current bike -- etc.?


    One is a flat bar bike, the other is a drop bar bike. They are not
    comparable. If you don't know whether you're in the market for one or the
    other, you shouldn't be considering either one.

    I can attest to the quality and overall wonderfulness of the Airborne Carpe
    Diem I bought four years ago, FWIW. It's still my #1 bike, with somewhere
    around 14k miles on it.

    RichC
     
  4. Bill Sornson

    Bill Sornson Guest

    NYC XYZ wrote:
    > Actually, they're $1,200 -- hot deal?
    >
    > And how's this seat?
    >
    > http://pedalpusherbikeshop.com/site/itemdetails.cfm?ID=438&Catalog=39&sort=3rdcharacter


    Dude (or Dudette), you REALLY should visit a bike shop. You're all over the
    map -- and unlike most who want to spend, say, $60.00, you're actually
    talking about some real money. (Hint: why shop for a heavy, way-too-soft
    saddle until you actually TRY the one that comes with your new bike. A bike
    that OUGHT TO FIT YOU, by the way...)

    Bill "get thee to an LBS-ery" S.
     
  5. di

    di Guest

    "NYC XYZ" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Vis-a-vis the price, anyway -- $1,300 for 19-lb. bikes!!
    >
    > http://www.airborne.net/eready/janette/Store/05LXTI-special.asp
    >
    > http://www.airborne.net/eready/janette/store/05TB-special.asp
    >
    >
    > The first link is to a TITANIUM frame upright, while the second is for
    > the Thunderbolt with an aluminum frame. Oddly enough, the aluminum
    > bike weighs slightly less than the titanium one?? Components, I
    > suppose -- so what do y'all think of 'em?
    >
    > For example...caliper brakes?? 9-speed cassette??
    >
    > Which one would you get, if these were the choices?
    >
    > How do they compare to your current bike -- etc.?
    >


    why would you want a titanium hybrid?
     
  6. NYC XYZ

    NYC XYZ Guest

    Bill Sornson wrote:
    >
    >
    > Dude (or Dudette), you REALLY should visit a bike shop. You're all over the
    > map -- and unlike most who want to spend, say, $60.00, you're actually
    > talking about some real money. (Hint: why shop for a heavy, way-too-soft
    > saddle until you actually TRY the one that comes with your new bike. A bike
    > that OUGHT TO FIT YOU, by the way...)
    >
    > Bill "get thee to an LBS-ery" S.



    So how's the bike? =)

    These particular models are sold exclusively through the manufacturer,
    and only online, too -- at least at this price.

    As for the seat, I've never known a bike seat to be "comfortable," so
    anything the least bit ergonomic gets my attention.

    Seriously, how do the specs look? I want my shifts to shift right
    away, and I'm leery of the claiper brakes...but I'm only just
    above-average when it comes to bike knowledge and know-how, so I was
    hoping you could help.

    =)
     
  7. NYC XYZ

    NYC XYZ Guest

    Rich Clark wrote:
    >
    >
    > One is a flat bar bike, the other is a drop bar bike. They are not
    > comparable. If you don't know whether you're in the market for one or the
    > other, you shouldn't be considering either one.


    I prefer the more upright one (flatbar), but I'm thinking its
    components may be less than desirable, since it's a titanium frame
    selling for the same as the aluminum one which the same manufacturer is
    claiming to be spec'ed-out nicely (which may well be true since it
    actually weighs in slightly less than the ti!).

    > I can attest to the quality and overall wonderfulness of the Airborne Carpe
    > Diem I bought four years ago, FWIW. It's still my #1 bike, with somewhere
    > around 14k miles on it.
    >
    > RichC


    Yes, I know Airborne has a good reputation in general...just wondering
    about these particular models.

    Are titanium frames stronger than aluminum ones, typically? Lighter,
    more flexible or less? Etc.
     
  8. NYC XYZ

    NYC XYZ Guest

    di wrote:
    >
    >
    > why would you want a titanium hybrid?



    I'M SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ******GLAD****** YOU ASKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    It seems like manufacturers also think there isn't a market out there
    for folks who like their uprights (or upwrongs, as the 'bent crowd
    likes to crow!) comfy as well as light and speedy.

    I'm not into racing, but I do do a lot of bike riding for someone who's
    not into racing! So I want to be comfortable...but that also means not
    dealing with that extra five to ten pounds of a non-ti or carb-fi
    bike....

    I CAN'T be the only one who reasons this way...!

    I went to so many bike shops around NYC, and they all gave me that WTF
    stare...but it makes perfect sense to me! Why is the world so
    black-and-white anyway?? I like comfort, but I also like performance!

    When I lean more towards comfort (actually, when I have more cash) I'll
    get a recumbent bike...for now, I'm still leaning towards out-and-out
    performance -- but comfort's still a main, if not *the* main, factor!
     
  9. Hank Wirtz

    Hank Wirtz Guest

    "NYC XYZ" <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    >
    > Actually, they're $1,200 -- hot deal?
    >
    > And how's this seat?
    >
    > http://pedalpusherbikeshop.com/site/itemdetails.cfm?ID=438&Catalog=39

    &sort=3rdcharacter
    >
    >
    > TIA!
    >
    >
    >
    > NYC XYZ wrote:
    >> Vis-a-vis the price, anyway -- $1,300 for 19-lb. bikes!!
    >>
    >> http://www.airborne.net/eready/janette/Store/05LXTI-special.asp
    >>
    >> http://www.airborne.net/eready/janette/store/05TB-special.asp
    >>
    >>
    >> The first link is to a TITANIUM frame upright, while the second is
    >> for the Thunderbolt with an aluminum frame. Oddly enough, the
    >> aluminum bike weighs slightly less than the titanium one??
    >> Components, I suppose -- so what do y'all think of 'em?
    >>
    >> For example...caliper brakes?? 9-speed cassette??
    >>
    >> Which one would you get, if these were the choices?
    >>
    >> How do they compare to your current bike -- etc.?

    >


    You're paying attention to a 4-oz difference in weight, then
    contemplating putting on a 4-lb saddle? (FWIW, my sister-in-law has that
    saddle, and I guess she likes it, but it weighs more than her rear
    wheel).

    Low weight does not equal performance, except maybe psychologically. If
    you want to shave grams, pee before you ride. That's about the
    difference we're talking here. Performance is going to come from having
    a good-fitting bike that you ride a whole bunch.

    Like I say, fit is really the most important thing, and if you say you
    want comfort and performance, you are not likely to get either from a
    bike you can't test-ride first. Get yourself into a LBS and have them
    find you something that is just right for you. They can swap out stems
    and handlebars and seats (for a small upcharge usually, sometimes
    they'll do even trades) and get it dialled in. Mail-order shops can't do
    that for you.

    As far as caliper brakes...why not? These aren't mountain bikes. They're
    light enough and strong enough for 100% of the TDF field, and those guys
    descend at 50 mph. The _only_ reason they don't use them on dirt bikes
    is for tire clearance.

    Sorry if you're getting dogpiled here, but you really should do some
    test rides of both flat- and drop-bar bikes before you try to make your
    decision based on Ti vs. Al or 18.2 vs. 18.6.

    To answer your overall question, I'd go for the drop-bar bike, but
    that's because I like drop bars, not because of its componentry or frame
    material.

    Good luck!
     
  10. NYC XYZ

    NYC XYZ Guest

    Hank Wirtz wrote:
    >
    >
    > You're paying attention to a 4-oz difference in weight, then
    > contemplating putting on a 4-lb saddle? (FWIW, my sister-in-law has that
    > saddle, and I guess she likes it, but it weighs more than her rear
    > wheel).


    Holy Hell's Angels, that weighs more than my ass! Thanks for the
    info...hmm...wonder if there are any ergonomic seats that are very
    light?

    > Low weight does not equal performance, except maybe psychologically. If
    > you want to shave grams, pee before you ride. That's about the
    > difference we're talking here. Performance is going to come from having
    > a good-fitting bike that you ride a whole bunch.


    LOL -- of course!

    But the fit being equal, how do the specs read to you? I don't know
    why they bother with Shimano this and Bontrager that...do even the
    "pros" know what it means?? Reads like mattress advertising....

    I'm a fast rider...I can keep up with my messenger friend who races on
    the weekends (though we've never actually raced per se, given our very
    different bikes). I say this so that you know I'm not stuck on
    components like they were magic or something. In this particular case,
    my natural inclination is to get the flat-bar bike, but it seems like
    the componentry on the drop-bar may be substantially better.

    > Like I say, fit is really the most important thing, and if you say you
    > want comfort and performance, you are not likely to get either from a
    > bike you can't test-ride first. Get yourself into a LBS and have them
    > find you something that is just right for you. They can swap out stems
    > and handlebars and seats (for a small upcharge usually, sometimes
    > they'll do even trades) and get it dialled in. Mail-order shops can't do
    > that for you.


    Only problem is that these particular bikes sound like real sweet deals
    and aren't available except online from the manufacturer.

    What's the big deal with the "fit," though? An 18" frame is an
    18"...and the seat posts adjust, etc. I really wanted to know what the
    components of the drop-bar are like compared to those of the flat-bar.

    > As far as caliper brakes...why not? These aren't mountain bikes. They're
    > light enough and strong enough for 100% of the TDF field, and those guys
    > descend at 50 mph. The _only_ reason they don't use them on dirt bikes
    > is for tire clearance.


    I thought the V-brakes stop better? I went from cantilever brakes on a
    chromoly to the old Trek 7500 (the old one, not the current one -- why
    did they change the frame geometry? It seems like everyone's hybrid
    line has got the angled top tube now) with aluminum and V-brakes...cool
    stuff.

    > Sorry if you're getting dogpiled here, but you really should do some
    > test rides of both flat- and drop-bar bikes before you try to make your
    > decision based on Ti vs. Al or 18.2 vs. 18.6.


    I'm sure I won't like drop-bars since I think the typical flat-bar
    forces me to hunch over as it is! I always raise the headset (correct
    term?) myself...upright means comfort!

    > To answer your overall question, I'd go for the drop-bar bike, but
    > that's because I like drop bars, not because of its componentry or frame
    > material.


    I suppose I could always raise the drop-bars too?

    When hunched over, my back really becomes the rear suspension!

    > Good luck!


    Many thanks!

    What's it mean that the Airborne Thunderbolt comes in 10-speed (is that
    right, only ten speeds????) "double" or 10-speed "triple"????
     
  11. Hank Wirtz

    Hank Wirtz Guest

    "NYC XYZ" <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    >
    > Hank Wirtz wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >> You're paying attention to a 4-oz difference in weight, then
    >> contemplating putting on a 4-lb saddle? (FWIW, my sister-in-law has
    >> that saddle, and I guess she likes it, but it weighs more than her
    >> rear wheel).

    >
    > Holy Hell's Angels, that weighs more than my ass! Thanks for the
    > info...hmm...wonder if there are any ergonomic seats that are very
    > light?
    >
    >> Low weight does not equal performance, except maybe psychologically.
    >> If you want to shave grams, pee before you ride. That's about the
    >> difference we're talking here. Performance is going to come from
    >> having a good-fitting bike that you ride a whole bunch.

    >
    > LOL -- of course!
    >
    > But the fit being equal, how do the specs read to you? I don't know
    > why they bother with Shimano this and Bontrager that...do even the
    > "pros" know what it means?? Reads like mattress advertising....
    >
    > I'm a fast rider...I can keep up with my messenger friend who races on
    > the weekends (though we've never actually raced per se, given our very
    > different bikes). I say this so that you know I'm not stuck on
    > components like they were magic or something. In this particular
    > case, my natural inclination is to get the flat-bar bike, but it seems
    > like the componentry on the drop-bar may be substantially better.


    Better? Probably, but I wouldn't say substantially. Deore LX is probably
    somewhere between Ultegra and 105, but it's not really something that
    can be compared. One's a mountain group, the other's a road group.


    > Only problem is that these particular bikes sound like real sweet
    > deals and aren't available except online from the manufacturer.


    A bike that looks nice on paper but sits in the hallway because it's not
    as much fun to ride because the geometry's weird is not a sweet deal.

    > What's the big deal with the "fit," though? An 18" frame is an
    > 18"...and the seat posts adjust, etc.


    Sort of, but not really. I have a 21" Peugeot Orient Express and an 18"
    GT Avalanche. Because of seat post length, slope of the top tube, and
    rigid vs. suspension fork, set the bikes side-by side, and the cranks,
    seat, and handlebars are all pretty much in the same places (but the GT
    has a shorter wheelbase). Geometry is a big part of fit. Sliding your
    saddle on its rails or installing a longer stem will give different ride
    characteristics than a different sized top tube, even though the overall
    reach is the same. Raise the saddle to compensate for a shorter seat
    tube, and you're also moving it backwards. Slide the seat forward to
    compensate, and you change the reach. Put on a different stem, and your
    steering changes. It all ties in together. You can compare geometry, but
    it's tough to say what's best for you until you ride it in real life.

    There's a great anecdote on good bike fit in the R&E Cycle (in Seattle)
    newsletter this month, which I'll quote:

    From http://www.rodcycle.com/07_05_news.pdf

    "A couple weeks ago, a man came in (we'll call him Jim) during a busy
    spot in the day on a Thursday afternoon. I had just walked up from the
    frame shop, and noticed that Smiley and Scott had their hands full, so I
    stepped in to help him. He said he was looking for a new 'go-fast' bike.
    I asked him what he was currently riding. He said "well, I've got a 25
    year old Motobecane." I asked him if he'd been test riding other bikes,
    and if he'd ridden anything that he'd liked. He said "as a matter of
    fact, I've been test riding bikes for a year but I haven't ridden a bike
    that I liked better than my Motobecane." He was about to give up
    looking, but then a friend of his suggested that he look over our
    website (thanks friend). He liked our focus on comfort as well as
    performance, and thought our Rodriguez Arrow Race would be worth a try.
    I fit him to an Arrow Race, and set him up for a test ride.

    "As he left the shop for his test ride, a woman (we'll call her Jane)
    happened in to air her tires. Coincidentally, she was also riding a
    1970-80's vintage Motobecane. As I helped her air her tires, I told her
    about the man that had just left for a test ride whose current bike is
    just like hers. She said "this isn't my only bike, it's just the bike I
    ride all the time. I have an expensive bike I bought 2 years ago, but I
    don't like it." I asked her what kind of ike it was. She said that it
    was a carbon fiber race bike that she thought would make her fast, but
    instead only made her uncomfortable. I suggested that she schedule with
    me for some fit work, but she said "I think I'll just keep riding the
    Motobecane....it's comfortable." She went on her way.Well, 30 minutes or
    so later, Jim returned from his test ride. The verdict...all smiles.
    "Wrap it up!" He said, "this one's mine".

    "After a year long search, Jim decided that the bike to send the
    Motobecane out to pasture would be a stock Rodriguez Arrow Race.

    "Our commitment to blending comfort and performance has grown
    out of listening to you, and listening to our own common sense. When we
    build a 16 pound race bike for a customer, we want that bike to be not
    only light and fast, but the most comfortable bike they've ever
    ridden....a bike they WANT to ride every day. If I were going to race in
    the Daytona 500, I would want to drive a Nextel Cup car. Comfort and
    convenience wouldn't matter as I would be hopped up on adrenaline. But
    if I were going to buy a high performance sports car to drive down the
    coast, I don't want to have to crawl in the window. I'm going to want a
    radio, air conditioner, a heater, and doors that open. I might even want
    somewhere to pack a small duffle bag, and a seat for my wife (I know
    what you're thinking Chris, and she didn't make me put that in).
    The point is, even though I would be driving a high performance sports
    car, it wouldn't be the same car that Dale Earnhardt Jr. would drive in
    the Daytona 500. The same is true in a bicycle. Jane was sold the "Lance
    Armstrong, 16 pound, gonna go win the Tour De France" model. But she's
    not Lance Armstrong, and she's not going to race in the Tour. She
    commutes, and she rides long weekend fun rides with her friends. She
    would be much more comfortable on a 16 pound bike designed for her style
    of riding. It should be set up by someone who listens to what she's
    going to do with the bike, and fits her to it accordingly."

    > I really wanted to know what
    > the components of the drop-bar are like compared to those of the
    > flat-bar.
    >
    >> As far as caliper brakes...why not? These aren't mountain bikes.
    >> They're light enough and strong enough for 100% of the TDF field, and
    >> those guys descend at 50 mph. The _only_ reason they don't use them
    >> on dirt bikes is for tire clearance.

    >
    > I thought the V-brakes stop better? I went from cantilever brakes on
    > a chromoly to the old Trek 7500 (the old one, not the current one --
    > why did they change the frame geometry? It seems like everyone's
    > hybrid line has got the angled top tube now) with aluminum and
    > V-brakes...cool stuff.


    Any better stopping is likely due to larger pads. The V-brakes they use
    on some FBR bikes usually have road-sized pads. I have Kool-Stop salmon
    pads on my sidepulls and they stop as good as anything.

    >
    >> Sorry if you're getting dogpiled here, but you really should do some
    >> test rides of both flat- and drop-bar bikes before you try to make
    >> your decision based on Ti vs. Al or 18.2 vs. 18.6.

    >
    > I'm sure I won't like drop-bars since I think the typical flat-bar
    > forces me to hunch over as it is! I always raise the headset (correct
    > term?) myself...upright means comfort!


    I think "stem" is the word you're looking for, and that can be very
    difficult with threadless stems, since the height is changed with
    spacers, and the steerer's often already been cut too short to add more.

    You can get a riser add-on, but I haven't tried one.

    >
    >> To answer your overall question, I'd go for the drop-bar bike, but
    >> that's because I like drop bars, not because of its componentry or
    >> frame material.

    >
    > I suppose I could always raise the drop-bars too?


    Yup. And they give you more hand positions so hou can get some variety.
    Reduces numbness for me.

    >
    > When hunched over, my back really becomes the rear suspension!


    Then absolutely, raise the bars!

    >
    >
    > What's it mean that the Airborne Thunderbolt comes in 10-speed (is
    > that right, only ten speeds????) "double" or 10-speed "triple"????
    >

    10 speeds in the back, with a double or triple crank, so a 20 or 30
    speed system. The triple has a granny ring for the steeps.

    You're asking questions, which is a good thing. Hopefully the answers
    you're getting are leading you to more questions which will help you
    make your decision.

    Good luck!

    -Hank
     
  12. maxo

    maxo Guest

    On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 21:06:09 -0700, NYC XYZ wrote:

    > So I want to be comfortable...but that also means not
    > dealing with that extra five to ten pounds of a non-ti or carb-fi bike....


    A quality steel frame weighs about a pound more than a ti or carbon frame.
    Not insisting that you go with steel, but go with the frame that's got the
    feel that you like, no matter what the material. Weight's a hell of a lot
    more important when it comes to wheels.

    When you see a carbon or ti bike built up with an advertised spec of
    something crazy like 15 pounds, it's due to all the components being the
    lightest of of breed, not just the frame.


    :)
     
  13. Gooserider

    Gooserider Guest

    "NYC XYZ" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Vis-a-vis the price, anyway -- $1,300 for 19-lb. bikes!!
    >
    > http://www.airborne.net/eready/janette/Store/05LXTI-special.asp
    >
    > http://www.airborne.net/eready/janette/store/05TB-special.asp
    >
    >
    > The first link is to a TITANIUM frame upright, while the second is for
    > the Thunderbolt with an aluminum frame. Oddly enough, the aluminum
    > bike weighs slightly less than the titanium one?? Components, I
    > suppose -- so what do y'all think of 'em?
    >
    > For example...caliper brakes?? 9-speed cassette??
    >
    > Which one would you get, if these were the choices?
    >
    > How do they compare to your current bike -- etc.?


    Airborne is fine, if you don't mind buying a Chinese bicycle. I don't
    support communist dictatorships. I own three Taiwanese bikes, and an
    American bike. The American bike is head and shoulders above the Taiwanese
    quality wise, but it was far more expensive, too. I wouldn't buy the
    Airborne, but that's purely on an ethical level. I'm sure the quality is
    fine.
     
  14. Gooserider

    Gooserider Guest

    "NYC XYZ" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > di wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >> why would you want a titanium hybrid?

    >
    >
    > I'M SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ******GLAD****** YOU ASKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    >
    > It seems like manufacturers also think there isn't a market out there
    > for folks who like their uprights (or upwrongs, as the 'bent crowd
    > likes to crow!) comfy as well as light and speedy.
    >
    > I'm not into racing, but I do do a lot of bike riding for someone who's
    > not into racing! So I want to be comfortable...but that also means not
    > dealing with that extra five to ten pounds of a non-ti or carb-fi
    > bike....


    Aluminum can be SCARY light, and steel isn't 5-10 pounds heavier. Try 1-2
    pounds. I'm sure you couldn't stand to lose 5 pounds off your body, right?
    If you want to be comfortable, frame material is the least of your concern.
    Tire size and frame geometry have far more to do with it. That being said,
    don't you wonder why so many touring bikes are STEEL? :)
     
  15. Zoom

    Zoom Guest

    Gooserider wrote:
    > "NYC XYZ" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >
    >>Vis-a-vis the price, anyway -- $1,300 for 19-lb. bikes!!
    >>
    >>http://www.airborne.net/eready/janette/Store/05LXTI-special.asp
    >>
    >>http://www.airborne.net/eready/janette/store/05TB-special.asp
    >>
    >>
    >>The first link is to a TITANIUM frame upright, while the second is for
    >>the Thunderbolt with an aluminum frame. Oddly enough, the aluminum
    >>bike weighs slightly less than the titanium one?? Components, I
    >>suppose -- so what do y'all think of 'em?
    >>
    >>For example...caliper brakes?? 9-speed cassette??
    >>
    >>Which one would you get, if these were the choices?
    >>
    >>How do they compare to your current bike -- etc.?

    >
    >
    > Airborne is fine, if you don't mind buying a Chinese bicycle. I don't
    > support communist dictatorships. I own three Taiwanese bikes, and an
    > American bike. The American bike is head and shoulders above the Taiwanese
    > quality wise, but it was far more expensive, too. I wouldn't buy the
    > Airborne, but that's purely on an ethical level. I'm sure the quality is
    > fine.
    >
    >


    I don't mind buying Chinese bikes, I have three of them from this
    manufacturer. Whether a dictatorship is communist or capitalist is all
    the same to me.
    My titanium mountain bike has taken a pounding and is still going strong.
     
  16. Gooserider

    Gooserider Guest

    "Zoom" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Gooserider wrote:
    >> "NYC XYZ" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> news:[email protected]
    >>
    >>>Vis-a-vis the price, anyway -- $1,300 for 19-lb. bikes!!
    >>>
    >>>http://www.airborne.net/eready/janette/Store/05LXTI-special.asp
    >>>
    >>>http://www.airborne.net/eready/janette/store/05TB-special.asp
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>The first link is to a TITANIUM frame upright, while the second is for
    >>>the Thunderbolt with an aluminum frame. Oddly enough, the aluminum
    >>>bike weighs slightly less than the titanium one?? Components, I
    >>>suppose -- so what do y'all think of 'em?
    >>>
    >>>For example...caliper brakes?? 9-speed cassette??
    >>>
    >>>Which one would you get, if these were the choices?
    >>>
    >>>How do they compare to your current bike -- etc.?

    >>
    >>
    >> Airborne is fine, if you don't mind buying a Chinese bicycle. I don't
    >> support communist dictatorships. I own three Taiwanese bikes, and an
    >> American bike. The American bike is head and shoulders above the
    >> Taiwanese quality wise, but it was far more expensive, too. I wouldn't
    >> buy the Airborne, but that's purely on an ethical level. I'm sure the
    >> quality is fine.

    >
    > I don't mind buying Chinese bikes, I have three of them from this
    > manufacturer. Whether a dictatorship is communist or capitalist is all the
    > same to me.
    > My titanium mountain bike has taken a pounding and is still going strong.


    The problem with buying Chinese goods is the very real possibility that
    doing so supports our enemy.War with China over Taiwan is not out of the
    question. The Chinese have a horrible human rights record, you know. People
    there are routinely put in re-education camps, undergo forced sterilization,
    are placed in forced labor camps, and face other such horrible acts. Every
    dollar you spend on Chinese goods goes to strengthen them both economically
    and militarily. I would no more buy Chinese goods than I would buy conflict
    diamonds.
     
  17. >>Get yourself into a LBS and have them
    find you something that is just right for you. They can swap out stems
    and handlebars and seats (for a small upcharge usually, sometimes
    they'll do even trades) and get it dialled in. Mail-order shops can't
    do
    that for you. <<

    There are no small charges at an lbs. They will want $30 for a stem
    you can get for<$10 online. LBS have crappy return policies. Order
    saddles online then you can return them . Or get a Brooks B17 and be in
    bliss. I wouldnt hesitate to buy a bike online.
     
  18. Ron Ruff

    Ron Ruff Guest

    Both of those bikes are decent deals, but it is difficult to advise you
    intelligently.

    You want speed *and* comfort (ie an upright position with a big cushy
    saddle). These are somewhat exclusive traits.

    Speed is primarily a function of how much power you can produce, how
    much you weigh (important only on climbs), and what your air resistance
    is (important only on a fairly flat road or descent).

    In all of these, your body and position is much more important than the
    bike you have. Saving 8 lbs (on the bike or the rider) will only effect
    your climbing speed significantly, and that will only improve by a few
    % at the very most.

    If you want to go fast on the flat, you need to be in an aerodynamic
    position with your back nearly flat. You call this "uncomfortable" (you
    like to sit upright), but the most important property of a "fast" bike
    is that it allows this position. If this is difficult for you, then you
    will have to work towards it slowly, with stretching and training.
    Basically, you need to *make* it comfortable if you really want to go
    fast.

    Same for the saddle. The skinny, hard saddles are actually comfortable
    once you get used to them... much better than the fat cushy ones that
    come on cheap bikes. You need to be wearing decent shorts, of course.

    Personal experience... I recently upgraded my "road" bike from a $300
    MTB with a long low stem, barends, rigid fork, and 1.25" slicks, to a
    $3,000 Ti racing bike with Dura Ace. The new bike is about 10 lbs
    lighter, and I could get slightly more aero... I also think the tires
    have a little less rolling resistance. All of this resulted in a speed
    increase on my regular time-trials of 1-2%... and this is more than I
    expected.

    So, the bike alone isn't really that important. But if you would like
    to get a new one, and you are truly interested in going fast, then get
    a road bike with drop bars (they afford more position options that also
    have access to the brakes), adjust the position so it is comfortable
    *now*, and as you become more flexible, lower the bars and extend the
    reach. This is pretty economical and easy to do by changing the stem...
    as long as you get the right size frame to start with.

    BTW, Ti is great but aluminum and steel are also fine. Best not to
    spend too much money at this point, and make sure you get a good fit.

    Anyway, good luck,

    -Ron
     
  19. since you want a Ti bike, I would suggest that you go here:
    http://www.habcycles.com/
    Habanero frames are good quality, just like airborne. However, it is
    smaller volume, and the owner, Mark, will spend more time talking to
    you and answering all the questions that you have very patiently. Mark
    is a regular poster here and a nice guy, but don't talk politics with
    him.

    Andres
     
  20. NYC XYZ

    NYC XYZ Guest

    Hank Wirtz wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > Better? Probably, but I wouldn't say substantially. Deore LX is probably
    > somewhere between Ultegra and 105, but it's not really something that
    > can be compared. One's a mountain group, the other's a road group.


    OIC!

    THX!

    > A bike that looks nice on paper but sits in the hallway because it's not
    > as much fun to ride because the geometry's weird is not a sweet deal.


    See, this is what I don't understand...ALL bikes are inherently
    uncomfortable to me -- it's just a terrible position; I'm sure I've got
    a lot of nerve damage in the crotch already! =( And my back is ALWAYS
    worse off after extended riding. I take it like a running injury --
    can't be eliminated, even if minimized.

    Of course I want it as comffy as possible...but I guess I just don't
    know what it can really mean in the absence of the possibility of total
    comfort. Hell, even recumbent bikes can exacerbate existing back
    problems!

    The only bike I don't ride anymore is my old chromoly...I call it "the
    pig" -- tough bike, but there's just no going back to that heavy stuff
    anymore for me!

    > Sort of, but not really. I have a 21" Peugeot Orient Express and an 18"
    > GT Avalanche. Because of seat post length, slope of the top tube, and
    > rigid vs. suspension fork, set the bikes side-by side, and the cranks,
    > seat, and handlebars are all pretty much in the same places (but the GT
    > has a shorter wheelbase). Geometry is a big part of fit. Sliding your
    > saddle on its rails or installing a longer stem will give different ride
    > characteristics than a different sized top tube, even though the overall
    > reach is the same. Raise the saddle to compensate for a shorter seat
    > tube, and you're also moving it backwards. Slide the seat forward to
    > compensate, and you change the reach. Put on a different stem, and your
    > steering changes. It all ties in together. You can compare geometry, but
    > it's tough to say what's best for you until you ride it in real life.


    There's ideal, and then there's real -- unless I get a bike customized
    to my proportions, I'm afraid anything off the rack/shelf will be
    less-than-ideal.

    > There's a great anecdote on good bike fit in the R&E Cycle (in Seattle)
    > newsletter this month, which I'll quote:
    >
    > From http://www.rodcycle.com/07_05_news.pdf
    >
    > "A couple weeks ago, a man came in (we'll call him Jim) during a busy
    > spot in the day on a Thursday afternoon. I had just walked up from the
    > frame shop, and noticed that Smiley and Scott had their hands full, so I
    > stepped in to help him. He said he was looking for a new 'go-fast' bike.
    > I asked him what he was currently riding. He said "well, I've got a 25
    > year old Motobecane." I asked him if he'd been test riding other bikes,
    > and if he'd ridden anything that he'd liked. He said "as a matter of
    > fact, I've been test riding bikes for a year but I haven't ridden a bike
    > that I liked better than my Motobecane." He was about to give up
    > looking, but then a friend of his suggested that he look over our
    > website (thanks friend). He liked our focus on comfort as well as
    > performance, and thought our Rodriguez Arrow Race would be worth a try.
    > I fit him to an Arrow Race, and set him up for a test ride.
    >
    > "As he left the shop for his test ride, a woman (we'll call her Jane)
    > happened in to air her tires. Coincidentally, she was also riding a
    > 1970-80's vintage Motobecane. As I helped her air her tires, I told her
    > about the man that had just left for a test ride whose current bike is
    > just like hers. She said "this isn't my only bike, it's just the bike I
    > ride all the time. I have an expensive bike I bought 2 years ago, but I
    > don't like it." I asked her what kind of ike it was. She said that it
    > was a carbon fiber race bike that she thought would make her fast, but
    > instead only made her uncomfortable. I suggested that she schedule with
    > me for some fit work, but she said "I think I'll just keep riding the
    > Motobecane....it's comfortable." She went on her way.Well, 30 minutes or
    > so later, Jim returned from his test ride. The verdict...all smiles.
    > "Wrap it up!" He said, "this one's mine".
    >
    > "After a year long search, Jim decided that the bike to send the
    > Motobecane out to pasture would be a stock Rodriguez Arrow Race.
    >
    > "Our commitment to blending comfort and performance has grown
    > out of listening to you, and listening to our own common sense. When we
    > build a 16 pound race bike for a customer, we want that bike to be not
    > only light and fast, but the most comfortable bike they've ever
    > ridden....a bike they WANT to ride every day. If I were going to race in
    > the Daytona 500, I would want to drive a Nextel Cup car. Comfort and
    > convenience wouldn't matter as I would be hopped up on adrenaline. But
    > if I were going to buy a high performance sports car to drive down the
    > coast, I don't want to have to crawl in the window. I'm going to want a
    > radio, air conditioner, a heater, and doors that open. I might even want
    > somewhere to pack a small duffle bag, and a seat for my wife (I know
    > what you're thinking Chris, and she didn't make me put that in).
    > The point is, even though I would be driving a high performance sports
    > car, it wouldn't be the same car that Dale Earnhardt Jr. would drive in
    > the Daytona 500. The same is true in a bicycle. Jane was sold the "Lance
    > Armstrong, 16 pound, gonna go win the Tour De France" model. But she's
    > not Lance Armstrong, and she's not going to race in the Tour. She
    > commutes, and she rides long weekend fun rides with her friends. She
    > would be much more comfortable on a 16 pound bike designed for her style
    > of riding. It should be set up by someone who listens to what she's
    > going to do with the bike, and fits her to it accordingly."


    I totally agree. Thing is, $1,200 for this bike is quite a deal! I'm
    sure I'll fit...I've always bought pre-built bikes, and they've never
    felt totally comfortable, whatever that means when it comes to
    bicycling.

    > Any better stopping is likely due to larger pads. The V-brakes they use
    > on some FBR bikes usually have road-sized pads. I have Kool-Stop salmon
    > pads on my sidepulls and they stop as good as anything.


    Hmmm...I thought it had to do with the mechanics of the pull of the
    cable...a V-brake seems more powerful, from a mechanical POV, than a
    cantilever...I can't quite imagine in my mind's eye the same difference
    between a V-brake and caliper brakes operationally, but I have heard
    that V-brakes are second only to disc brakes.

    > I think "stem" is the word you're looking for, and that can be very
    > difficult with threadless stems, since the height is changed with
    > spacers, and the steerer's often already been cut too short to add more.
    >
    > You can get a riser add-on, but I haven't tried one.


    Yes, "stem" is what I'd meant! Thanks again for all the insight.

    > Yup. And they give you more hand positions so hou can get some variety.
    > Reduces numbness for me.


    GOODNESS, THAT'S TRUE! Duh -- I'd just never considered that there
    were more hand positions available with a drop-bar...yes, well, on that
    basis alone, I'd go with the Thunderbolt! Time to think of my wrists
    as well....

    > Then absolutely, raise the bars!


    It'll be a funny-looking bike, then. =)

    > 10 speeds in the back, with a double or triple crank, so a 20 or 30
    > speed system. The triple has a granny ring for the steeps.


    Eh? Is that what that "third gear" is called, a granny ring? For
    steep climbs, right?

    Cool -- it's the triple for me, then! =) I'm fast enough, but a
    granny ring will make me faster!

    Why would anyone do without it? Can't add much weight....

    > You're asking questions, which is a good thing. Hopefully the answers
    > you're getting are leading you to more questions which will help you
    > make your decision.


    They certainly have! You've clarified much for me in this one post
    alone. =)

    > Good luck!
    >
    > -Hank


    Thanks again; much obliged!
     
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