How do you properly use the front/rear brakes?

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Ac/Dcdude17, Jun 19, 2003.

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  1. Ac/Dcdude17

    Ac/Dcdude17 Guest

    X-No-Archive: Yes

    I always wondered. Is there a proper way to discriminate the use of front and rear brakes? I
    like the front brake better, because it gives much better deceleration since weight naturally
    shifts forward as you decelerate. Rear brake skids easily and I'm not a big fan of it.
     
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  2. A shy person asked:

    > I always wondered. Is there a proper way to discriminate the use of front and rear brakes? I
    > like the front brake better, because it gives much better deceleration since weight naturally
    > shifts forward as you decelerate. Rear brake skids easily and I'm not a big fan of it.

    You're on the right track.

    See also http://sheldonbrown.com/brakturn.html

    Sheldon "Stop!" Brown +-------------------------------------------------+
    | I will be appearing in the Midsummer Revels | Boston Children’s Museum, June 20 | (I’ll be the
    | front of the Dragon) | This is a FREE show! http://revels.org |
    +-------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone
    617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
    http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
     
  3. G.Daniels

    G.Daniels Guest

    opinion #2 the front wheel turns the bike, supports the bike.the rear supports and drives the rig
    along with a puny 1/50 hp. Not much power transmission for to overwhelm the good rubber stiction
    back there. aha! more excess grip at the rear wheel. and the current status is that more or less the
    bike is always turning. The Great Walenda only made it look easy. So, even if you're deeply involved
    in countersteering(and leveling out and maintaining the straight ahead
    f/r tire stiction with weight going straight down thru the frame into the contact patch is the
    raison of countersteer) down to the 7-ll, the rear has more excess adhesion capacity to use up in
    braking whilst the front, busy turning and supporting has less. taking these non-ideas to their
    basic conclusion-cooking along into the favorite mitty turn-where some expletive deleted has
    spread sand overnight-and the rider mitty brakes while leaning into to it or as approved leaning
    against it and hello tooth fairy. Too much for the front wheel. But,feeding in the rear brake
    first gives the rider a wee bit extra time to gauge the surface and correct if sliding what with
    that extra sick over the front who is really working its butt off trying to lead the bike's weight
    thru a corner. then, ease on the front and balance. crashing rear slide out first is more fun than
    crashing front slide out first. but s.brown is correct. there's more brake up front 'cuase the
    weight goes in this direction. and this continues overworking the front stiction.And if one really
    wants to STOP the front's the way to go.
     
  4. x

    x Guest

    RE/
    > I always wondered. Is there a proper way to discriminate the use of front and rear brakes? I
    > like the front brake better, because it gives much better deceleration since weight naturally
    > shifts forward as you decelerate. Rear brake skids easily and I'm not a big fan of it.

    Right-or-wrong, the way I do it is to apply relatively constant force on the front brake - so it's
    doing the "heavy lifting", so-to-speak - and then fine tune by modulating the rear brake.

    The exceptions are mud, loose gravel, and anything else that might make the front wheel wash
    out. On those surfaces I'll either reverse the priority and go really slow or just stick with
    the rear brake.
    -----------------------
    PeteCresswell
     
  5. On Sat, 21 Jun 2003 09:01:31 +0000, g.daniels wrote:

    > the contact patch is the raison of countersteer) down to the 7-ll, the rear has more excess
    > adhesion capacity to use up in braking whilst the front, busy turning and supporting has less.

    What a load of crap. Stripped of all the seemingly-fancy words, the idea is that since there is more
    weight on the rear, it will brake better. However, once you start slowing down -- this being the
    point of braking -- that situation changes. In extreme braking, in fact, the rear will lose all
    traction -- or stiction, or whatever you want to call it.

    As a simple example, it is a trivial matter to skid a rear wheel braking on dry pavement. If the
    rear wheel had all that traction, this would be impossible. What is impossible is to skid a front
    wheel. You do an endo first.

    > taking these non-ideas to their basic conclusion-cooking along into the favorite mitty turn-where
    > some expletive deleted has spread sand overnight-and the rider mitty brakes while leaning into to
    > it or as approved leaning against it and hello tooth fairy. Too much for the front wheel.

    As far as I can make out from that, the idea is supposed to be that a sandy corner is "too much" for
    front wheel braking. Like rear wheel braking would work there.

    --

    David L. Johnson

    __o | It doesn't get any easier, you just go faster. --Greg LeMond _`\(,_ | (_)/ (_) |
     
  6. Use the front for stopping and serious slowing, the rear for minor speed modulation and at times of
    questionable traction.

    May you have the wind at your back. And a really low gear for the hills! Chris

    Chris'Z Corner "The Website for the Common Bicyclist": http://www.geocities.com/czcorner
     
  7. On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 19:48:08 -0400, Chris Zacho "The Wheelman" wrote:

    > Use the front for stopping and serious slowing, the rear for minor speed modulation and at times
    > of questionable traction.

    Two additions to that. The rear brake is primarily a back-up. Use it when the front brake breaks.
    Also, I tend to use the rear brake when slowing in a paceline, hoping that the rider behind will see
    it in addition to my called-out "slowing". This used to work better, when there was more visible
    movement of the brake, but with current tight pad/rim clearances the brake doesn't move very much.
    But it is still something I watch on the bike ahead of me when in a paceline.

    --

    David L. Johnson

    __o | This is my religion. There is no need for temples; no need for _`\(,_ | complicated
    philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our (_)/ (_) | temple. The philosophy is kindness.
    --The Dalai Lama
     
  8. Peter Cole

    Peter Cole Guest

    "(Pete Cresswell)" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > RE/
    > > I always wondered. Is there a proper way to discriminate the use of front and rear brakes? I
    > > like the front brake better, because it gives much better deceleration since weight naturally
    > > shifts forward as you decelerate. Rear brake skids easily and I'm not a big fan of it.
    >
    > Right-or-wrong, the way I do it is to apply relatively constant force on the front brake - so it's
    > doing the "heavy lifting", so-to-speak - and then fine tune by modulating the rear brake.

    On normal surfaces, you're better off not using the rear brake at all.
     
  9. David L. Johnson <[email protected]> wrote:
    >On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 19:48:08 -0400, Chris Zacho "The Wheelman" wrote:
    >>Use the front for stopping and serious slowing, the rear for minor speed modulation and at times
    >>of questionable traction.
    >Two additions to that. The rear brake is primarily a back-up. Use it when the front brake breaks.

    ... and that implies using it often enough that you know that it _does_ work. :)
    --
    David Damerell <[email protected]> flcl?
     
  10. Ray Heindl

    Ray Heindl Guest

    "David L. Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Two additions to that. The rear brake is primarily a back-up. Use it when the front brake breaks.
    > Also, I tend to use the rear brake when slowing in a paceline, hoping that the rider behind will
    > see it in addition to my called-out "slowing". This used to work better, when there was more
    > visible movement of the brake, but with current tight pad/rim clearances the brake doesn't move
    > very much. But it is still something I watch on the bike ahead of me when in a paceline.

    You could toe-out the brake shoes so they squeak horribly, thereby giving an audible warning.

    --
    Ray Heindl (remove the X to reply)
     
  11. G.Daniels

    G.Daniels Guest

    using the rear first then the front may give balance rather than aggression in using the front only.
    oaf course, many unbearably aggressive people are talented to the point where balance occurs
    naturally bringing their cerebellar/frontal lobe connections past the temporal to competition on a
    serious level and then sometimes,crashing. on the other hand, it is possible to balance the brakes,
    balance (and learn balance if not naturally gifted) and enjoy the day.swoop swoop
     
  12. G.Daniels

    G.Daniels Guest

    while the non-racer must, off course, defer to the racer on questions of bike handling and braking,
    the final answers lay in cycle r/d of honda et al and probably deeetroit but then agin maybe not
    deeeetroit. the lab cycle machine, variable and hooked to servos/sensors for geometry-road
    surface-tire stiction-brake pressure, computer programed to actuate,record and analize nay!
    correlate both input and output FOR TWO WHEELS(not one on most areas of this planet-cepting
    hanna-barbara) the entire gamut of braking insanity, EXISTS!!! and may have trickled down the the
    posties mechanics and carbonfiber frame designers. Like, there's alotta dinero at steak here. Stand
    up and submit!!! for the benefit of all humanity. oh, sure, like welding in another frame member for
    a panhard rod. pass the bud. so, disregarding reality. at what point in front brake application does
    the lessening pressure on the rear cuase the cycle arrow arcing thru space to destabilize with both
    laws of total available road surface contact area and directional stability as the rear comes around
    walenda? I assume the racer, having done this over and over to the point of infinite beauty and
    grace,has sorted thru the progression and knows the answer. enough already.
     
  13. Jobst Brandt

    Jobst Brandt Guest

    Jerry C? writes:

    > I always wondered. Is there a proper way to discriminate the use of front and rear brakes?

    You could just leave the question stand, but...

    > I like the front brake better, because it gives much better deceleration since weight naturally
    > shifts forward as you decelerate. Rear brake skids easily and I'm not a big fan of it.

    As often, you answer your "question" as though you didn't really want to know. Just the same, you
    could peruse the FAQ, as in:

    http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/9.15.html

    Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA
     
  14. Mark Lee

    Mark Lee Guest

    I think top-posting is appropriate here as I don't know how to snip the original. From g.daniels, we
    have unintelligible drivel - again. Is it some kind of "hip" typed diarrhoea? Am I missing
    something? Or is it just public spurting? Mark Lee

    "g.daniels" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > while the non-racer must, off course, defer to the racer on questions of bike handling and
    > braking, the final answers lay in cycle r/d of honda et al and probably deeetroit but then agin
    > maybe not deeeetroit. the lab cycle machine, variable and hooked to servos/sensors for
    > geometry-road surface-tire stiction-brake pressure, computer programed to actuate,record and
    > analize nay! correlate both input and output FOR TWO WHEELS(not one on most areas of this
    > planet-cepting hanna-barbara) the entire gamut of braking insanity, EXISTS!!! and may have
    > trickled down the the posties mechanics and carbonfiber frame designers. Like, there's alotta
    > dinero at steak here. Stand up and submit!!! for the benefit of all humanity. oh, sure, like
    > welding in another frame member for a panhard rod. pass the bud. so, disregarding reality. at what
    > point in front brake application does the lessening pressure on the rear cuase the cycle arrow
    > arcing thru space to destabilize with both laws of total available road surface contact area and
    > directional stability as the rear comes around walenda? I assume the racer, having done this over
    > and over to the point of infinite beauty and grace,has sorted thru the progression and knows the
    > answer. enough already.
     
  15. G.Daniels

    G.Daniels Guest

    [email protected]rdalumni.org http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/9.15.html
    ******************

    quand vous l'obtenez à la fourchette dans la prise de route – Berra I

    Brandt's most excellent discourse weighs heavily on me, an average rider, an average commuter, and
    whoa an average commuter for god help me, I am average and no longer aspire to 9/10th's speed down
    the road having done that and in general survived to tell the tale. Besides! As with most of my
    friends, my eyesight and reflexes left with old age, wisdom crept in, and I got tired of the
    expletive deleted 300lb cycle falling on me than scraping me off the pave so to hell with it.
    Penicillin! Brandt on the other hand extols SPEED!!! GOD SPEED!! Hey jb, itsa nice day. Slow down
    dude!! Well, maybe JB chose an engineering point to start off with, MAX SPEED, and then qualified
    the MAX SPEED CONCLUSIONS with some waffle-ling about real world road surfaces, rain, oil, the
    unbearable(ever hit a bear? Expel…) and off course the average unmentionable's inadequacy at
    countersteering while casually, that is SLOW DUDE!! (READ RETARDDEAD) at only 75% MAX SPEED, weaving
    down the road lika fu… broomstick for expl.!! Well, that's America. MAX MAX MAX. Maybe he's
    incubating future riders of the peloton thru the window of opportunity. Cool! Cooler to convert the
    discourse and weight those real world subjective data conditions as most important and leave the
    racing as a separate category rather than the main category ah but that isn't gonna sell racing
    geometry is it? See BM ‘s yearly bike review two years past when the economy wasa really cooking on
    spec dough. Gee, I sound like Ralph Nadir. The average reader can quickly(ooppps) see the thread of
    MAX running thru the entire six pages lika subversive subliminal element while the ever varying road
    surface languishes with brief mention. "Oh, you ran over some coon slick at 9/10th's and broke your
    arm in three places? It'll heal, don't let it bother you, think MAXSPEED MAXSPEED and you'll be back
    screaming over the coon slick with a new Colnago in 6-7 months.No problema!" This BS(mine) is off
    course an exercise in following the logic of the discourse(JB's) to its fallacious absurdity and
    disregarding the fact that real world conditions were mentioned as qualifiers to the MAX SPEED
    ETHIC. Engineer/cyclist. Primo. And don't forget, lives in CA where the gnomes come out at nite and
    scrape the coon slick offen the streets.

    The problem, briefly noted in passing, delineated by the lab testing equipment and further defined
    by charley smith who said "bodies in motion tend to stay in motion" and then began designing brake
    systems that brake the vehicles rear first for arrow stability before the unsprung weight heaves
    itself forward to the front wheels willy-nilly depending on the walenda vector then applies the
    front with more force than the rear. Lookit the little holes if you don't believe me. No, not the
    ones in your backyard! Those are from horny space aliens. Now, a word from a sleepy trucker just in
    over the snow from Bismark.See any cyclists out there, Curtiss?" Nope, but I hit a big coon" "I wuz
    sleepy" "But we kept the rear in the back thank the Lord ABS." AND A WORD FROM A TOURING FRAME
    DESIGNER!! And off course JB counts several touring frame designers as friends or conversational
    acquaintance and has digested those opinions into the cited discourse on braking. Does chainstay
    length and rear rack weight alter the credo max breaking front wheel braking to the point of rear
    wheel lift-off as the way to brake? Does the chainstay/baggage factor increase the need for coon
    slick factor awareness? Only Bruce Gordon knows for sure. But seriously, there's appoint here where
    the frontbrake only-max speed no longer makes sense(and we passed it several hundred words ago)
    Riders could be grouped into categories of: slow(ooopps) or casual, touring/commuter, sport
    touring/commuter, sport, sport/mitty, sport/racing, racing, competitive racing. Who gets to balance
    front and rear brakes? Who needs MAX BRAKING MAX SPEED?? Who hid my hub adapter? It was said that GP
    motorcyclists made excellent GP FI drivers, in the rain, as the bikers exquisite sense of balance
    gave an pronounced advantage over the car throwers. FINALLY, (and don't send me nasty emails that
    whining that you can't read this or it doesn't make sense-if you can't read it don't read it-go out
    and MAX BRAKE MAX SPEED under a bus) there's this question-if a bike, gear and rider weight is X and
    two tire contact patches are Y(math, dig it we quantify here) X/Y=1 with 1 as say 200lbs from 20 mph
    to 0 mph in 50 feet then how does braking improve when X/.5Y=2 not to mention the
    insidiuous,sometimes monumental granitic forces of imbalance foisted on the unwary as the "rear tire
    lifts off". Rocket science!!! "the rear tire lifts off!" Does the peloton do this? Where do we
    stand? Outsight! How much faster can front wheel only be from rear first then front. That's almost
    both at once now with modulation for the surface traveled while decelerating. And whater the Odds?

    quand vous l'obtenez à la fourchette dans la prise de route – Berra I
     
  16. g.daniels wrote:

    > quand vous l'obtenez =E0 la fourchette dans la prise de route =96 Berra=
    I

    Glad to see that Yogi was no more grammatical in French than in English..=
    =2E

    > Brandt's most excellent discourse weighs heavily on me, an average rider, an average commuter, and
    > whoa an average commuter for god help me, I am average and no longer aspire to 9/10th's speed down
    > the road having done that and in general survived to tell the tale. Besides! As with most of my
    > friends, my eyesight and reflexes left with old age, wisdom crept in, and I got tired of the
    > expletive deleted 300lb cycle falling on me than scraping me off the pave so to hell with it.
    > Penicillin! Brandt on the other hand extols SPEED!!! GOD SPEED!! Hey jb, itsa nice day. Slow down
    > dude!!=20

    This is a bum rap, Gene, or should I say gene. That's what braking is=20 all about, you're going
    faster than you want to for one reason or=20 another, so you use the brake. What other purpose would
    there be for=20 brakes?

    Whether you want to slow down from 35 to 30 or from 5 to 0, braking=20 procedure is the same.

    Now, some times you want to slow down or stop in a hurry, other times=20 you just want to slow down
    gradually.

    For gradual slow downs, any technique works, but gradual slowdowns are=20 not the situations where
    your life is on the line.

    When you need to slow down in a hurry, you'll be more likely able to do=20 so without losing control
    if you have previously developed good braking=20 habits.

    Anybody who rides in traffic may need to brake suddenly and unexpectedly =

    as the result of the boneheaded actions of some other road user.

    Indeed, this is more critical for the urban commuter than it is for the=20 alpine descender, because
    the mountain roads don't have much cross traffi=
    h.

    Inasmuch as I can decipher gene's stream-of-conciousness maunderings, it =

    appears that he's advocaing a position that some cyclists should use=20 substandard braking
    procedures for reasons that may be clear to him, but =

    not to me.

    All of the objections offered to front-wheel-only braking relate to=20 problems that might occur in
    maximal braking conditions.

    For the low-speed putterer, none of the imagined dangers of front wheel=20 braking are at issue.

    See: http://sheldonbrown.com/brakturn.html for more

    Sheldon "Stop!" Brown +-----------------------------------+
    | A smoking section in a | restaurant is like a peeing | section in a swimming pool |
    +-----------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772
    FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
    http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
     
  17. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

  18. "g.daniels" translated:

    >>quand vous l'obtenez =E0 la fourchette dans la prise de route - Berra I=

    >=20
    > -snip-
    >=20
    >>quand vous l'obtenez =E0 la fourchette dans la prise de route - Berra I=

    A puzzled Andy Muzi wrote:

    > Alta Vista's translation utility: "when you obtain it with the fork in the catch of road "

    g.daniels's literary references are not as arcane as those of, say James =

    Joyce. This is a not very good translation of a famous Yogi Berra=20 quote, viz.:

    "When You Come to a Fork in the Road, Take It!"

    I would have translated it as:

    "Lorsque vous trouvez une fourche dans le chemin, prendre-la"

    This pun doesn't translate too well, unfortunately, partly 'cause the=20 French don't use the same
    word for an eating utensil (fourchette) as for =

    a split in a road (ebranchement, bifurcation or fourche according to the =

    TrueTerm dictionary in my Cli=E9.)

    Here's what Babelfish comes up with:

    "Quand vous venez =E0 une fourchette dans la route, prenez-la"

    Sheldon "Sometimes I Actually Understand g.daniels" Brown
    +------------------------------------------------+
    | Nobody who has anything to do with bicycles | has _all_ of their marbles, and some of us | are
    | certifiable! | --Sheldon Brown |
    +------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone
    617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
    http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
     
  19. G.Daniels

    G.Daniels Guest

    > [email protected] http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/9.15.html

    all trips to the store or around the block are fraught. and given the assumption puttering is not
    concentrating, as puttering is less than average,not good enough,yes!! not up to snuff, puttering is
    fraught. all fraught situations have gradients, you know-this is more dangerous, that is less so, ad
    nauseum and under the bus. Really hard to tell.Sometimes. In developing reflexes down to both hands,
    right-left, from your otoliths and whatever else you're using for balance these days, one(or more)
    should consider that god gave us rear brake to use as a brake. And that two wheels require balance
    for to enhance an upright position in forward motion. Brace!! Surely yawl brace, no?
    Allors!!!Merde!!! brace!! Maybe a post on DQ Bracing?? ah, merde, my cone... expletive deleted. The
    development of MAX FRONT WHEEL BRAKING, requires balance. Let's say itsa raining on the strand and
    conditions are sub par. Less than JB's MAX BRAKE description. JB advocates balance ina roundabout
    sorta weigh. NO, seriously, the data are weighted to speed and you're a gonna say no weighted toward
    efficiency reducing speed to friction and ima gonna say cool but that MAX does one no good iffn ura
    on ur face and then ur gonnaa... compare me to joyce and that's somewhat off course but that's cool
    but i prefer faulkner. I digress or maybe you digress.hard to tell sometimes. Anyway, The discourse
    seems to look down it's nose at braking in less than MAX BRAKE conditions but what do I know maybe
    GP Cyclists in sunny California never brake in the rain. WAAAHOOO!! Right? Are unicycle more pop on
    the san andreas?? So, with a load on the rack, us "puttererers," another demeaning look down the
    nose at a more adequately described group,this fast is good slow is bad stuff is total BS, balance
    the rear wagging cycle and proceed to modulate the two brakes for CONDITIONAL MAX BRAKE rather than
    FRONT WHEEL MAX BRAKE.The discourse is the same, only the data are alleviated, spread out so to
    speak,MAX is still MAX but the MAX is too the road surface not to the GOD SPEED.

    STAY OFF THE GUARDRAIL AND THOINK TWO NOT ONE!!! ENTER FRONT WHEEL MAX BRAKE WITH BALANCE
    AFORETHOUGHT!! Most become faster rather than born fast like you and me. development thru balance is
    critical at any level but Olympus but even there...the gradient is inescapable.

    And what about LOAD and CHAINSTAY LENGTH;increasing factors alter the need to weigh data to GOD
    SPEED rather than CONDITIONAL MAX BRAKE??? HEY?, where's the scatter diagram? The thougth of bearing
    down into the roundabout at 110 mph on my suzuki and having only the front brake allufasudden...
    merde! everyone scatter!

    as for yogi sez- I tried imperial latin but the gradient...ugly ugly translation so off to the
    french and its just beautiful,swimming there, no? apre!! and wathc the gators.
     
  20. Mark Lee

    Mark Lee Guest

    I think top-posting is appropriate here as I don't know how to snip the original. From g.daniels, we
    have unintelligible drivel - again. Is it some kind of "hip" typed diarrhoea? Am I missing
    something? Or is it just public spurting? Mark Lee

    "g.daniels" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > while the non-racer must, off course, defer to the racer on questions of bike handling and
    > braking, the final answers lay in cycle r/d of honda et al and probably deeetroit but then agin
    > maybe not deeeetroit. the lab cycle machine, variable and hooked to servos/sensors for
    > geometry-road surface-tire stiction-brake pressure, computer programed to actuate,record and
    > analize nay! correlate both input and output FOR TWO WHEELS(not one on most areas of this
    > planet-cepting hanna-barbara) the entire gamut of braking insanity, EXISTS!!! and may have
    > trickled down the the posties mechanics and carbonfiber frame designers. Like, there's alotta
    > dinero at steak here. Stand up and submit!!! for the benefit of all humanity. oh, sure, like
    > welding in another frame member for a panhard rod. pass the bud. so, disregarding reality. at what
    > point in front brake application does the lessening pressure on the rear cuase the cycle arrow
    > arcing thru space to destabilize with both laws of total available road surface contact area and
    > directional stability as the rear comes around walenda? I assume the racer, having done this over
    > and over to the point of infinite beauty and grace,has sorted thru the progression and knows the
    > answer. enough already.
     
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