How does TT training transfer to Climbing?

[quenya]

Hey all, I would like to hear some opinions on how training for TTs will affect my climbing?

I'm 28yo. 5'10" currently 165 lbs (trying to drop this to maybe as low as 155 depending on how my body likes that weight.) I had been too sedentary for a few years until last June when I started training for my first marathon, 3:59:59 on 11/8/09. Since then I have been riding on the road, training for the Climb to Kaiser (155mi 14,000' elevation gain) which I finished well ahead of my training partners. In our small group I became the strongest climber by a fair margin but, I was quite a bit weaker on the flats than most of the group. Since the CTK, 6/26/10, I've switched my focus to getting faster on the flats using 2x20 intervals 2-3 times a week, as well as running (well trying to run, its been over 100 degrees almost everyday since 6/27) to prepare for the 50k option of the same marathon I ran last year, not to improve my cycling.

Our local club has monthly TTs, and a Team TT next month, which I will participate in. Next season I plan to do a few road races, more TTs, maybe crits which scare me, and of course my biggest priority is the CTK which I will be aiming to win/set a course record until I do it.

I use the same bike for road riding and TTs, a kestrel talon, I've set it up with clip on aero bars and a forward/raised saddle position. I think I have a pretty good aero position, narrow, flat-ish back, I have been getting faster with practically every workout as I get used to a very strange position. FWIW when I climb I can, and usually do, stand for most of the time. On Old Tollhouse a relatively close climb, and part of the CTK, is 6.60 mi avg ~7% with sections at the top hitting 13 or 15% I stand for ~40 minutes of the 44-50 that it takes me to ride. On Big Creek 3.75mi of ~10% with sections of 20+% I'm out of the saddle virtually the whole time about 35 min.

So I guess what I really want to hear from you all is... will training for improvements in time trialing on mostly flat roads help, hinder, or do nothing to my climbing. losing weight and increasing power it seems obvious that I'll be much faster when I get up in the mountains but the very different nature of the activities and how different my form is from one to the other is has me wondering if I need to hit Old Tollhouse every week or two?

 

[daveryanwyoming]

From a specificity standpoint you'll get better at what you do a lot of. If you ride a lot of steep sustained grades like Tollhouse you'll get better at that. If you ride a lot of flat and fast TTs you'll get better at that. But the reality is that there's a lot of transfer of sustainable power and fitness, especially if you're not riding dramatically different positions between the two events as in a TT bike setup with an 80 degree seat angle vs. climbing on a 73 degree road bike.

Climbing well starts with sustainable watts per kg and fast time trials is mostly watts per meter squared of effective frontal area (CdA). But in both cases you want the watts and both forms of training will help you develop those watts. But getting really good at one vs. the other also has mental and tactical aspects like when to shift, sit or stand, how to tuck your head low while riding the aero position in a TT, learning to keep your knees in while time trialing, etc. So to get that last few percent of performance you want to work both disciplines but neither will make you a lot slower at the other.

Case in point back in the day when I was on the Fresno State team I was promoter for the Tollhouse TT. One of the best times of the day was set as usual by Bob Brooks, he also generally cleaned our clocks during the monthly CVC time trials out on the flats. The fastest guys tend to go pretty darn fast across a variety of terrain but even then some excel on the steeps (usually the lightest guys) and some on the flats (those that are aerodynamically gifted, which could be body shape, flexibility or both). Either way being more powerful helps and training for either terrain should help there.

Good luck,
-Dave

 

[quenya]

Thanks Dave!

At this point though my climbing position and TT position are VERY different. I just don't know how different the activities are from a physiological stand point. I guess it comes down to how different are the muscle groups used for TTing at ~79 degree seat tube angle, or climbing out of the saddle.

I have a lot of general fitness still to build, I have some weight to lose, and it would seem I am still progressing in the power area. So another question comes to mind, do you focus on training relative weaknesses or strengths, or is it too soon to tell what those are having been on the bike less than a year now.

 

[swampy1970]

The other big thing to remember is the type of effort. If youre a good time trial rider you'll likely be averaging over 27mph and there's a lot of momentum to get you over those small rises... But even if you're a good climber and pulling 9+mph on 8% grades you're still going to encounter situations where there's typical a higher torque effort involved.

One thing Ive noticed on climbs that change grade often and change grade quickly is that perceived effort goes out the window. After short sharp sections that level out to mere 8%, the legs screem like its 375watts yett he powermeter says 265 and time to start banging through the gears to get the power back where it should be - but it just feels so, so wrong. Its a situation that you'd never get in a time trail.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

...do you focus on training relative weaknesses or strengths, or is it too soon to tell what those are having been on the bike less than a year now.

For a racer with some experience under their belt the old adage is: 'train your weaknesses, race your strengths...'

But it takes a while for most folks to figure out what those strengths and weaknesses really are and just about everyone can stand to raise their metabolic or sustainable power, IOW their FTP.

I'd suggest focusing on sustainable power, but go out and do the local crits (do they still run those monthly CVC practice crits, those were an awesome way to get used to racing), sprint for city limit signs when you go out on group rides, try different stuff and start figuring out what parts you really like and where you excel. But even if you really love sprinting or just kill it on one minute hills don't neglect the sustained power work.

Good luck,
-Dave

 

[quenya]

For a racer with some experience under their belt the old adage is: 'train your weaknesses, race your strengths...'

But it takes a while for most folks to figure out what those strengths and weaknesses really are and just about everyone can stand to raise their metabolic or sustainable power, IOW their FTP.

I'd suggest focusing on sustainable power, but go out and do the local crits (do they still run those monthly CVC practice crits, those were an awesome way to get used to racing), sprint for city limit signs when you go out on group rides, try different stuff and start figuring out what parts you really like and where you excel. But even if you really love sprinting or just kill it on one minute hills don't neglect the sustained power work.

Good luck,
-Dave

I'll have to ask one of the CVC guys about the local practice crits I haven't heard anything about them in a while, they got forced to change location a few years ago, stupid rich north Fresno yuppies
I've been working on sustainable power, CTK has a lot of sustained climbing and now I'm doing 2x20s a couple or few times a week. With tempo or recovery rides between. Did 4x20 last week. but I notice that short, ~1-3 min hills are a weakness and my sprints only get up to 35mph on a good day.

Do you think I should train to address that aspect as well or still focus primarily (solely) on sustainable power?

 

[swampy1970]

I'll have to ask one of the CVC guys about the local practice crits I haven't heard anything about them in a while, they got forced to change location a few years ago, stupid rich north Fresno yuppies
I've been working on sustainable power, CTK has a lot of sustained climbing and now I'm doing 2x20s a couple or few times a week. With tempo or recovery rides between. Did 4x20 last week. but I notice that short, ~1-3 min hills are a weakness and my sprints only get up to 35mph on a good day.

Do you think I should train to address that aspect as well or still focus primarily (solely) on sustainable power?

If you find yourself dreading certain parts of races then "race your strengths to negate your weaknesses" if you have the power to make that happen. Short sharp hills tend to happen in the foothills where such roads are often hard and twisty. Are great at cornering and can nail a great 10 minute big gear effort prior to the dreaded short hill? See if you cant shell those who are good at such hills out the back or at least make them suffer prior to getting there.

Everything you do will require great aerobic conditioning - so there will never be a wasted long hard interval session such as a 3x20 or similar, providing its done honestly.