How far on 8 hours a week?

[daveryanwyoming]

Right...but I thought it was such a good thread. I was learning something and then it got diverted.

Funny how forum threads take on a life of their own. This one mutated into a discussion of CTL and left the topic of potential for racing success on limited hours nearly 9 months ago.

If you want to steer it back to a specific training topic then how about posing a question, concern or some point that takes it closer to something you're interested in?

 

[Alex Simmons]

OK, back on the old topic...., since it's a bit of a fun one anyway and it IS quiet around here....

I'm not up to riding 8 hours a week yet.

But what I'm doing is quality.

Last week was 5 rides, 6.86 hrs, 551 TSS, average IF 0.896.
No junk miles for this dude.

That relatively high average IF actually tells me that my FTP is likely to see a bit of a bump up after next week's testing.

Coach & I are just focussed on the basics of all round fitness:
Sunday is sprint day at the track. Fun fun fun
Tue-Thu was aerobic endurance, harder endurance and 2x20 threshold
Today was 90-min tempo (that was hard!).

That was my hardest week so far. But it's how I'm going to get better.

So far on < 6hrs / week I'm up to a CTL of mid-50s.

I reckon I'll get to CTL ~ 70-75, maybe another 10 weeks away and that'll need to move me closer to 8hrs/week. Higher CTL is technically possible but that'll be a very good effort to get that far. Certainly I'd be able to race OK on that.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

...Last week was 5 rides, 6.86 hrs, 551 TSS, average IF 0.896....That relatively high average IF actually tells me that my FTP is likely to see a bit of a bump up after next week's testing....

Sure looks that way to me! Holding an average IF of ~0.9 for the entire week, you're either made of steel or your FTP is climbing .... or both

BTW, how's the homebrew trainer project coming along? Has it helped you come to terms with indoor sweatfests?

Good luck,
-Dave

 

[Steve_B]

Last week was 5 rides, 6.86 hrs, 551 TSS, average IF 0.896. No junk miles for this dude.

I had only two weeks that high this year and those weeks were composed of only racing and L4/L5 during the week. Just my warm-ups and cool-downs alone probably keep me from much over 0.9 for any one ride.

 

[grahamspringett]

I was the one who steered us over towards handicaps, but only to illustrate what I had achieved on my skinny training regime.

It's all fine and dandy talking about TSS scores and IF readings, but what counts is what you can do with the results. Are you blasting guys off your wheel with such-and-such a TSS? Does your IF of .9 all week enable you to stick with the fast boys?

Come on, we're cyclists, not number crunchers. I'm as keen as the next man to study the numbers, but it's more exciting hearing about what you do with that fitness.

I went out on the usual Saturday morning world champs yesterday on a cool and windy day here in Australia (yes, I know it's colder elsewhere!) and the winds were so gusty that our group of 15 fast boys ended up as just 4 of us. One rider is getting ready for the national championships in a few weeks and the Tour of Qatar in January, another guy is a local A-grade strongman and the third recently almost clinched a race series in B grade.

And there was me. With my 8 or so hours of training on an indoor trainer and a couple of weekend rides, I was fighting the wind and hanging with an international-class rider.

There's a touch of tooting my own trumpet here, but I'm proud of what I managed (and I took the sprint for the rail bridge at the end) considering what little time in which I can achieve it.

My TSS scores for those who wish to know have been for the last few weeks in the mid-400s going up to 647 at a peak. My current ATL is 62.9, CTL is 56.2, but I'm on an easy week.

I owe a lot of what I know to this forum and to Messrs Allen and Coggan, and it's been a giggle seeing the progress come.

So let's hear some of your stories of what you have achieved on 8 hours a week and how you've achieved it. Show off, impress us!

 

[Alex Simmons]

Sure looks that way to me! Holding an average IF of ~0.9 for the entire week, you're either made of steel or your FTP is climbing .... or both

BTW, how's the homebrew trainer project coming along? Has it helped you come to terms with indoor sweatfests?

Good luck,
-Dave

Well at the risk of further thread drift... I'll post some pics of the set up on a new thread. I had done it before on a another forum, so shouldn't take long!

But that basic news is, it is fabulous for training, and really, the sweat is not so bad as I invested in a really big powerful fan. The difference that made was amazing.

 

[EoinC]

And it can rub a lot of people the right way too ...

I agree. Handicap races (if decently handicapped) are good for all. They encourage scratch to ride hard from the get go, and give the slower riders a taste of how fast the the more advanced riders are. There is a big carrot to try to jump on to a faster group coming through.
Whilst they aren't the be-all end-all of racing, they are an excellent development species.
They also mean that the slower riders aren't coming in after everyone else has packed their bags and gone home.

 

[Yojimbo_]

Funny how forum threads take on a life of their own. This one mutated into a discussion of CTL and left the topic of potential for racing success on limited hours nearly 9 months ago.

If you want to steer it back to a specific training topic then how about posing a question, concern or some point that takes it closer to something you're interested in?

Ok here's a question.....

When I ride with a fast group, I can usually hang in there until there's a surge or a small hill. By small, I mean really small. Then I have trouble adjusting and drop back.

What do I need to do to improve this? I'm working on SST and L4 stuff indoors now (it's winter here in Canada) to increase my threshold power, but should I also build in L5? And when you guys do L5 stuff, how many days a week do you do it?

 

[Alex Simmons]

Ok here's a question.....

When I ride with a fast group, I can usually hang in there until there's a surge or a small hill. By small, I mean really small. Then I have trouble adjusting and drop back.

What do I need to do to improve this? I'm working on SST and L4 stuff indoors now (it's winter here in Canada) to increase my threshold power, but should I also build in L5? And when you guys do L5 stuff, how many days a week do you do it?

See what you've done Dave?

 

[daveryanwyoming]

See what you've done Dave?

Yeah, stirred the proverbial hornet's nest.......

Weird...I just wrote a very long post that tried to tie Yojimbo's questions back to the 8 hour per week training limit in terms of general principles. I previewed it, edited it, and Submitted it only to have it evaporate in the ether. Damn well maybe I'll get motivated to take another stab at it, but not right now.

-Dave

 

[Steve_B]

Weird...I just wrote a very long post.... I previewed it, edited it, and Submitted it only to have it evaporate in the ether.

I've noticed that the server tends to get all wigged out around 11AM ET in the US (1600 GMT - which would have been about the time your problem happened) and I'm more likely to get a "too busy" response at that time than any other. I assume it either has to do with a daily maintenance schedule or the time of peak user load (East Asian/Oceania night time, European late afternoon, west coast of North America is waking up and getting on their computers).

If I'm writing something long, especially around that time of day, I tend to do it in my email editor then copy it over to CF. That way I don't lose it. Plus I get to use the very necessary spelling checker there too.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

I've noticed that the server tends to get all wigged out around 11AM ET in the US (1600 GMT - which would have been about the time your problem happened) and I'm more likely to get a "too busy" response at that time than any other. I assume it either has to do with a daily maintenance schedule or the time of peak user load (East Asian/Oceania night time, European late afternoon, west coast of North America is waking up and getting on their computers)...

Interesting observation Steve. I hadn't payed attention to the timing, but I've had this happen once or twice before. I'll definitely copy to another app next time I write a long one.

Thanks,
-Dave

 

[kopride]

Interesting observation Steve. I hadn't payed attention to the timing, but I've had this happen once or twice before. I'll definitely copy to another app next time I write a long one.

Thanks,
-Dave

That's why sometimes, nothing beats a ham radio for making contact. If you had your old ham radio set, you could fire it up and just deliver the message directly.

See what happens, you hit these guys with SST and they come right back at you with L5 intervals.

 

[frenchyge]

I've noticed that the server tends to get all wigged out around 11AM ET in the US (1600 GMT - which would have been about the time your problem happened) and I'm more likely to get a "too busy" response at that time than any other.

That's the confluence of the US western seaboard coming online, coffee break surfing in US eastern time, and the nightly EMP from Thunderbird 7 spooling-up in Oz.

 

[Yojimbo_]

Ok here's a question.....

When I ride with a fast group, I can usually hang in there until there's a surge or a small hill. By small, I mean really small. Then I have trouble adjusting and drop back.

What do I need to do to improve this? I'm working on SST and L4 stuff indoors now (it's winter here in Canada) to increase my threshold power, but should I also build in L5? And when you guys do L5 stuff, how many days a week do you do it?

Anyone?

 

[grahamspringett]

Sounds like the perfect time to do the world-famous Bill Black hour of power or a variation thereof.

Sit in your sweet spot and every three or so minutes surge to way above FTP (think L6 anaerobic) for a short while then recover while staying in your sweet spot. Do that for an hour.

It's been a while so I can't remember the specifics but a quick search for HOP or hour of power will reveal the sordid details.

When you say you can hang with the group until a small hill, it sounds like you're on the edge and then the hill tips you over. It's probably about the most common reason why riders (from weekend warriors to top-class pros) get spat out the back.

The hour of power workout recreates this kind of scenario very effectively and as such is about the most unpleasant thing you can do on a bike.

But it'll help you dip into the anaerobic pool and come back out again in one piece.

Have fun!

 

[frenchyge]

Anyone?

I think you're on the right track with threshold work. Sounds to me that you're doing well drafting and that's why you're able to hang with this particular group on the flats. As soon as the road inclines the playing field gets levelled throughout the group (and even puts the larger riders at a power disadvantage) and that's where your *relative* weakness is exposed.

Even on a small incline, the power requirement increases pretty dramatically at high speeds.

 

[kopride]

The hour of power workout recreates this kind of scenario very effectively and as such is about the most unpleasant thing you can do on a bike.
Have fun!

That does sound like an evil workout. Take everything you hate about threshold work and add everything you hate about high intesity intervals and put them together in a puke inducing workout. Bob Barker's "Hour of Power" was just a full hour of the Price is Right. If you add in the mind numbing pain of having to watch an old game show rerun on the game show network during this workout, it will be the equivalant of waterboarding.

 

[Yojimbo_]

Thanks guys.

It is true that with this group I was barely hanging in and then when the power demand increased I dropped off. (I've been dropped out the back while doing 53 km/hr on a relatively flat section, and I can't maintain that speed for long. And I sure can't catch up again either.)

This used to bother me, until one day at the post-ride stop I overheard a couple of guys talking, and one of them said he used to be the provincial road race champion. I think he said he had also come second in the provincial time trial championship. I started to laugh when I heard this, and decided that there was good reason for me being dropped.

I did move to another less challenging group, but I still noticed that I would drop back on a hill and I wasn't barely hanging on with this other group. It just seemed that they could up their output to go up the hill and I couldn't seem to do it.

 

[postal_bag]

Thanks guys.

It is true that with this group I was barely hanging in and then when the power demand increased I dropped off. (I've been dropped out the back while doing 53 km/hr on a relatively flat section, and I can't maintain that speed for long. And I sure can't catch up again either.)

This used to bother me, until one day at the post-ride stop I overheard a couple of guys talking, and one of them said he used to be the provincial road race champion. I think he said he had also come second in the provincial time trial championship. I started to laugh when I heard this, and decided that there was good reason for me being dropped.

I did move to another less challenging group, but I still noticed that I would drop back on a hill and I wasn't barely hanging on with this other group. It just seemed that they could up their output to go up the hill and I couldn't seem to do it.

I'm guessing that was the 'Donut Ride'. I've been doing that ride for about 4 years. Once you get to know it, you can try riding tactically to avoid getting dropped.

Here is a power output summary of a typical ride: (I like to work hard on the ride)

1:10 @ 145 w AP, 226 w NP
0:30 @ 287 w AP, 351 w NP (flats and false flats)
0:05 recovery pace
0:25 @ 296 w AP, 358 w NP (rollers and false flats)
0:08 @ 121 w AP, 143 w NP
0:15 Rest Stop
0:15 @ 119 w AP, 155 w NP
0:28 @ 305 w AP, 350 w NP (flats, false flats, rollers)
1:20 @ 114 w AP, 153 w NP

Basically, it is a 3 x 30' ride disguised as a 5 hour ride. Notice that the VI for the hard sections is often >1.2

One of the hardest parts of the ride is the first 'roller' section where you are alternating between L6/L7 and L2/L3 (20-40" on, 80-100" off). This could be done on the trainer.

One of my favourite trainer rides last winter was a 3 x 30' SST session:

1) 30' at 91% FTP steady

2) 30' with over/under averaging 91% (for example, 1-3' at 25 w above 91%, 1-2' at 25 w below 91%

3) 30' @ 80% FTP w/10-15" surges reaching >200% FTP every 3 min (brings the AP to ~90% FTP)

This would also do a good job addressing the demands of a fast group ride.