How far on 8 hours a week?

[tonyzackery]

I'm guessing that was the 'Donut Ride'. I've been doing that ride for about 4 years. Once you get to know it, you can try riding tactically to avoid getting dropped.

Here is a power output summary of a typical ride: (I like to work hard on the ride)

1:10 @ 145 w AP, 226 w NP
0:30 @ 287 w AP, 351 w NP (flats and false flats)
0:05 recovery pace
0:25 @ 296 w AP, 358 w NP (rollers and false flats)
0:08 @ 121 w AP, 143 w NP
0:15 Rest Stop
0:15 @ 119 w AP, 155 w NP
0:28 @ 305 w AP, 350 w NP (flats, false flats, rollers)
1:20 @ 114 w AP, 153 w NP

Basically, it is a 3 x 30' ride disguised as a 5 hour ride. Notice that the VI for the hard sections is often >1.2

One of the hardest parts of the ride is the first 'roller' section where you are alternating between L6/L7 and L2/L3 (20-40" on, 80-100" off). This could be done on the trainer.

One of my favourite trainer rides last winter was a 3 x 30' SST session:

1) 30' at 91% FTP steady

2) 30' with over/under averaging 91% (for example, 1-3' at 25 w above 91%, 1-2' at 25 w below 91%

3) 30' @ 80% FTP w/10-15" surges reaching >200% FTP every 3 min (brings the AP to ~90% FTP)

This would also do a good job addressing the demands of a fast group ride.

I'm right there with ya' on the "over/unders". Good to see someone else employing them with apparent good effect...

 

[Flyer]

Anyone?

eeww

 

[bubsy]

Ok here's a question.....

When I ride with a fast group, I can usually hang in there until there's a surge or a small hill. By small, I mean really small. Then I have trouble adjusting and drop back.

What do I need to do to improve this? I'm working on SST and L4 stuff indoors now (it's winter here in Canada) to increase my threshold power, but should I also build in L5? And when you guys do L5 stuff, how many days a week do you do it?

Sounds like all you need is a block of L5 sessions, SST & L4 are great for year round FT building and maintainance but without smacking the L5 intervals in a serious block for 4/5 weeks your proly never gunna know how much top end power you really do have and focusing on these 4/5 weeks before your fast group rides or races start will not only give you more top end but help you recover alot quicker between hills or fast accelerations. After my first block of these (fairly new to training with power) l was blown away by how much extra grunt l had sitting there just waiting to be tapped and how often l could go into the red when racing and recover while still under pressure from the front runners in the group. The only down side is if you dont use it you loose it, so they usually are only are of benefit before your serious riding starts or if your L4 building sessions start going a bit stale a lot of people find these help to raise FT when nothing else seems to be working.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Sounds like all you need is a block of L5 sessions, ...

Based on his most recent post I've gotta disagree. Sure some L5 work might help, but if he's barely hanging on while presumably sitting in on the flats then it's no surprise that he falls off when the road tips upward and drafting doesn't help very much.

Even with the slower group it sounds like Yojimbo is riding a lot closer to his limit than his riding companions and falls off quickly with changes in pace or terrain. Based on this very limited info I'd say he still needs to bring up his sustainable power. Yes, some L5 work could be part of the mix, but it sure sounds to me like he needs to bring his FTP up so that he's got more margin to redline while riding in the group. An L5 focus would represent a pull up approach but unless he's really tapped out his potential to push up his FTP with SST/L4 work I'd put my focus there.

-Dave

 

[Yojimbo_]

I'm guessing that was the 'Donut Ride'. I've been doing that ride for about 4 years. Once you get to know it, you can try riding tactically to avoid getting dropped.

Here is a power output summary of a typical ride: (I like to work hard on the ride)

1:10 @ 145 w AP, 226 w NP
0:30 @ 287 w AP, 351 w NP (flats and false flats)
0:05 recovery pace
0:25 @ 296 w AP, 358 w NP (rollers and false flats)
0:08 @ 121 w AP, 143 w NP
0:15 Rest Stop
0:15 @ 119 w AP, 155 w NP
0:28 @ 305 w AP, 350 w NP (flats, false flats, rollers)
1:20 @ 114 w AP, 153 w NP

Basically, it is a 3 x 30' ride disguised as a 5 hour ride. Notice that the VI for the hard sections is often >1.2

One of the hardest parts of the ride is the first 'roller' section where you are alternating between L6/L7 and L2/L3 (20-40" on, 80-100" off). This could be done on the trainer.

One of my favourite trainer rides last winter was a 3 x 30' SST session:

1) 30' at 91% FTP steady

2) 30' with over/under averaging 91% (for example, 1-3' at 25 w above 91%, 1-2' at 25 w below 91%

3) 30' @ 80% FTP w/10-15" surges reaching >200% FTP every 3 min (brings the AP to ~90% FTP)

This would also do a good job addressing the demands of a fast group ride.

Not the Donut Ride actually....the group I eventually gave up on was the Old Fart's Ride out of High Park on Thursday evenings. It was both too fast for me and too hairy with guys zooming all over the place.

Your Donut Ride numbers are interesting to see - not that I could match them or anything. I'll try some of those over / unders for some variety. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[bubsy]

Based on his most recent post I've gotta disagree. Sure some L5 work might help, but if he's barely hanging on while presumably sitting in on the flats then it's no surprise that he falls off when the road tips upward and drafting doesn't help very much.

Even with the slower group it sounds like Yojimbo is riding a lot closer to his limit than his riding companions and falls off quickly with changes in pace or terrain. Based on this very limited info I'd say he still needs to bring up his sustainable power. Yes, some L5 work could be part of the mix, but it sure sounds to me like he needs to bring his FTP up so that he's got more margin to redline while riding in the group. An L5 focus would represent a pull up approach but unless he's really tapped out his potential to push up his FTP with SST/L4 work I'd put my focus there.

-Dave

Well l didn't mean drop SST/L4 all together but at somepoint if he is serious about hanging with a faster group than throwing in some higher intensity training is what may make or break his abillity to hang on to a wheel until the pace eases up a little, even if he hasn't tapped out his susstainable 1hr power yet it could be months before he raises it enough or may never push himself hard enough to get it where it needs to be. l did some races early this season with pretty much nothing but mid/high L3 and and a fair bit of L4 and got spat out the back constantly, after 4/5 weeks of V02 work (l'd never focused on these before, first couple weeks were hell) l was a different animal getting a couple 3rd 4th places, before quiting these races and focusing on longer races l had planed for the end season, IMO a block of L5 was what l needed as my 20-40m power had a slight but noticable increase.

 

[postal_bag]

Not the Donut Ride actually....the group I eventually gave up on was the Old Fart's Ride out of High Park on Thursday evenings. It was both too fast for me and too hairy with guys zooming all over the place.

Your Donut Ride numbers are interesting to see - not that I could match them or anything. I'll try some of those over / unders for some variety. Thanks for the suggestion.

Oh...oops. I did do the OF ride about half-a-dozen times in 2007. Very scary. I have to get up for work at 4 am, though, so the evening rides don't work for me (not that I would have continued to do that one).

 

[swampy1970]

Based on his most recent post I've gotta disagree. Sure some L5 work might help, but if he's barely hanging on while presumably sitting in on the flats then it's no surprise that he falls off when the road tips upward and drafting doesn't help very much.

Even with the slower group it sounds like Yojimbo is riding a lot closer to his limit than his riding companions and falls off quickly with changes in pace or terrain. Based on this very limited info I'd say he still needs to bring up his sustainable power. Yes, some L5 work could be part of the mix, but it sure sounds to me like he needs to bring his FTP up so that he's got more margin to redline while riding in the group. An L5 focus would represent a pull up approach but unless he's really tapped out his potential to push up his FTP with SST/L4 work I'd put my focus there.

-Dave

I'd go with the SST and some L4 work too. It's not the most glamourous training out there but done properly it provides the basis for some nice improvements.

I used to spend 8 hours a week training - Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday and Sunday were spent doing 2 hour rides, non-stop at almost my best 2 hour pace. Once I had a clue on how hard I could push it, it wasn't that bad. The gain - between the ramp test at the end of the season and the start of the next I'd gained 35 watts and had done no level 4 whatsoever.

Sometimes you just gotta deal with the fact that for right now there's no easy fix for getting shelled out the back when the road goes up.

 

[grahamspringett]

I'd go with the SST and some L4 work too. It's not the most glamourous training out there but done properly it provides the basis for some nice improvements.

I used to spend 8 hours a week training - Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday and Sunday were spent doing 2 hour rides, non-stop at almost my best 2 hour pace. Once I had a clue on how hard I could push it, it wasn't that bad. The gain - between the ramp test at the end of the season and the start of the next I'd gained 35 watts and had done no level 4 whatsoever.

Sometimes you just gotta deal with the fact that for right now there's no easy fix for getting shelled out the back when the road goes up.

I've been doing almost exclusively SST for the past 6 or so weeks as the racing here (in southern NSW, Australia) has stopped until the beginning of March.

The only intensity I've been doing has been the Saturday Morning World Championships, which is largely a cruise apart from 35 minutes of full-gas paceline on rolling roads.

I've gone from barely surviving with the fast group (and I mean hanging on for grim death while we tackle a 2.5km drag) to being up there with the best of them and yesterday, perhaps stupidly, I tried to bridge a 30m gap where 2 guys had broken away. I got across at 52kph and went kerblam immediately I made contact - bye bye break and bye bye fast group. I still managed to get in a group and chase hard though, and if I hadn't tried to be Superman I would have survived until the finish.

All this has been achieved on SST, which means my FTP must have gone up (I must retest!). I have done nothing more intense than 85-90% of my FTP apart from the burn-ups, where there are short bursts of 150% or more of my FTP interspersed with endurance or high tempo. This is unstructured fun and games.

So even though I've done just high tempo/low threshold, my capabilities at higher intensities have improved as well.

This is where the all-important base that cyclists through the millennia have talked about comes in. Get the endurance sorted and the rest follows on. You can train at higher intensities but if your FTP is low then you'll only be able to extend your ability a limited amount. Get the engine bigger and the top end extends.

 

[Yojimbo_]

Hi All

Appreciate the responses.

It appears my best course is to continue with the SST/L4 stuff I'm doing on the trainer, and then maybe come February throw in some L5.

I only have the KK trainer with it's power thingie to give me feedback right now so I can't do all the fancy tracking that many of you are doing (I did decide to buy the 2009 PRO+ PowerTap early in the new year though). In the meantime, I track my total L4 trainer minutes per week, because aside from warmup and cooldown, that's all I'm doing.

Over the last 6 weeks or so, I've noticed that the power I do the 20 min intervals at is slowly increasing, that I can do more of them, and that (sometimes) they seem quite "easy" (relatively speaking). These are all positives, but I sure wish improvements would come more rapidly.

I know everyone is different, but just for my curiosity, in terms of L4 minutes per week, how much would you say you are doing?

 

[daveryanwyoming]

... but just for my curiosity, in terms of L4 minutes per week, how much would you say you are doing?

This time of year I'm accumulating 90 to 120 minutes of L4 work per week. Some just happens here and there and adds to the total but I try to get at least an hour and a half of L4 work done in sustained 15 to 30 minute intervals throughout the week.

-Dave

 

[rmur17]

I've been doing almost exclusively SST for the past 6 or so weeks as the racing here (in southern NSW, Australia) has stopped until the beginning of March.

The only intensity I've been doing has been the Saturday Morning World Championships, which is largely a cruise apart from 35 minutes of full-gas paceline on rolling roads.

I've gone from barely surviving with the fast group (and I mean hanging on for grim death while we tackle a 2.5km drag) to being up there with the best of them and yesterday, perhaps stupidly, I tried to bridge a 30m gap where 2 guys had broken away. I got across at 52kph and went kerblam immediately I made contact - bye bye break and bye bye fast group. I still managed to get in a group and chase hard though, and if I hadn't tried to be Superman I would have survived until the finish.

All this has been achieved on SST, which means my FTP must have gone up (I must retest!). I have done nothing more intense than 85-90% of my FTP apart from the burn-ups, where there are short bursts of 150% or more of my FTP interspersed with endurance or high tempo. This is unstructured fun and games.

So even though I've done just high tempo/low threshold, my capabilities at higher intensities have improved as well.

This is where the all-important base that cyclists through the millennia have talked about comes in. Get the endurance sorted and the rest follows on. You can train at higher intensities but if your FTP is low then you'll only be able to extend your ability a limited amount. Get the engine bigger and the top end extends.

I think you have it

 

[swampy1970]

This is where the all-important base that cyclists through the millennia have talked about comes in. Get the endurance sorted and the rest follows on. You can train at higher intensities but if your FTP is low then you'll only be able to extend your ability a limited amount. Get the engine bigger and the top end extends.

I think the big difference here is that your "base" has plenty of quality miles at a good hard tempo, whereas most amateur cyclists seem to think that spinning 42x17 with legs whirring around like a hummingbirds' wings (at what probably equates to 103watts) for 8 hours constitutes endurance training.

I remember interviews back in the day with Eddy Plankaert and Bernard Hinault saying that during the winter they'd go out and get the miles but always in the 53 ring.

As for how far on 8 hours per week - probably around 160 to 200miles.

 

[baker3]

I'd say beween 250 and 300 km

Same, that is about what I do, sometimes a little more though.