How many cyclists not wearing helmets have been killed?



On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 19:16:00 GMT someone who may be Martin Dann
<[email protected]> wrote this:-

>If you can't swim, then wearing a polystyrene helmet really could save
>your life.


Unlikely. It would suspend the non-swimmer's mouth and nose under
the water:-(


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54
 
On 01/16/2007 11:28:16 Anthony Jones <[email protected]> wrote:

> Buck wrote:


>> People don't actually, they have heard from the idiots on both sides but
>> have yet to hear from balanced sources, both sides so far have started
>> with the solutions they wished to reach, then followed with "research" to
>> prove their requirements, both arguments are flawed so we are no further
>> forward.


> So you're unable to consider the evidence based on it's own merits, you'll
> only trust it if it comes via some arbitrarily 'balanced' third party?
> Sounds a bit chicken and egg to me. You must have a hard time making your
> mind up on any contentious issue.


> Anthony


I don't have any problem making my mind up, I do have a problem however using the "evidence", provided by people with a vested interest, in order
to make my mind up, you obviously just agree with whoever shouts you down first.

--

Buck

Give a little person a little power and create a big problem.

http://www.catrike.co.uk
 
On 01/16/2007 11:54:07 Señor Chris <[email protected]> wrote:

> Buck wrote:


>> Alan, this isn't the right place, you will get a jaded view here, the
>> people who shout the loudest here on this subject are so inflexible and
>> have their heads so far up their own arses you will never get a balanced
>> response.


> It should also be noted that Buck regularly throws his toys out of the
> pram in this manner when his own shouting cannot be heard above the din.


I think that is unfair, it's more to do with being shouted down by fools, I'm not here on a regular basis, the group Zealots view this as their "church", I find a smattering of sense in the dross.

--

Buck

Give a little person a little power and create a big problem.

http://www.catrike.co.uk
 
On 01/16/2007 09:13:21 bugbear <bugbear@trim_papermule.co.uk_trim> wrote:

> Alan Holmes wrote:


>> You seem not to understand what I am asking, it's very simple really, am
>> I at more risk when not wearing a helmet than when wearing one, how many
>> times will I fall off a cycle and damage my head?


> I suggest a controlled experiment on your part.


> Report back here with your findings, for the general good.


> BugBear


Just when some people are trying to prove me wrong, one of the flower pot
men trots out this old ****.

--

Buck

Give a little person a little power and create a big problem.

http://www.catrike.co.uk
 
On 01/16/2007 18:14:19 Tony Raven <[email protected]> wrote:

> Buck wrote on 16/01/2007 10:58 +0100:


>>> You (apparently) don't.


>> People don't actually, they have heard from the idiots on both sides but
>> have yet to hear from balanced sources, both sides so far have started
>> with the solutions they wished to reach, then followed with "research" to
>> prove their requirements, both arguments are flawed so we are no further
>> forward.


> Confirming you don't. Most of us here started from the long held
> assumption that helmets were good - I wore one for years thinking it
> protected my head. Many of us have also had scientific training and at
> some point or other something triggered us to look into the research. The
> result of that review is that most of us stopped wearing helmets.


> So to say we started from solutions we wished to reach is absolutely
> wrong. We started from a long held opposite position and were convinced
> by the evidence that we had been wrong. The evidence is now collated out
> there on cyclehelmets.org for you to read and make up your own mind. For
> some reason a number of people don't want to do that which is their
> perogative but don't expect to get an easy ride from those of us that have
> done the detailed study if you then spout uninformed nonsense here.


I've read it all and then some, I don't bother to allude to my supposed
education as a last defence however.

Helmets do provide some decelleration on impact, a little is better than non
in my opinion, however I don't always wear a helmet, it's my choice, but I
don't agree that because it cannot guarantee that you will survive a crash, it is therefore void.

Helmets need to made to reduce rotational forces, where in fact many increase these forces, a large diameter helmet can increase the possibility
of neck injury, but a lower profile helmet does not suffer this problem.

An informed purchase can make sense.

An increase in injuries has been reported when helmet use is law, but reading the reports suggests that this may well be because people
wearing helmets believe themselves to be impervious to harm, so the
problem, if that is the case, is not the helmet but the fool wearing it.

I note that on here car drivers are stupid for not using sense, but cyclists
doing the same are considered victims of legislation, it's double standards,
of course I am far less intelligent than you so what do I know?

My personal study of the information and my own experiences cannot in any
way compare to yours. I can only dream of being as competent as you Tony,
maybe in 60 years or so eh? If i get to drink out of enough alluminium
containers anyway.

--

Buck

Give a little person a little power and create a big problem.

http://www.catrike.co.uk
 
On 01/16/2007 19:16:00 Martin Dann <[email protected]> wrote:

> Paul Boyd wrote:


>> I do wear a helmet off-road if it's rocky or I don't know the area, but
>> my local woods are so squidgy that there's more danger of drowning!


> If you can't swim, then wearing a polystyrene helmet really could save
> your life.


> Martin.


Wouldn't you just float to the brow line and still drown?

--

Buck

Give a little person a little power and create a big problem.

http://www.catrike.co.uk
 
Buck wrote on 16/01/2007 22:46 +0100:
>
> I've read it all and then some, I don't bother to allude to my
> supposed education as a last defence however.
>


I can see why.

> Helmets do provide some decelleration on impact


Is that a fact backed up by evidence or an opinion masquerading as a fact?

>
> Helmets need to made to reduce rotational forces, where in fact many
> increase these forces, a large diameter helmet can increase the
> possibility of neck injury, but a lower profile helmet does not
> suffer this problem.


Is that a fact backed up by physics or an opinion masquerading as a
fact? Have you bothered to review the role of rotational forces in
brain injury as well as neck injury?

>
> An increase in injuries has been reported when helmet use is law, but
> reading the reports suggests that this may well be because people
> wearing helmets believe themselves to be impervious to harm, so the
> problem, if that is the case, is not the helmet but the fool wearing
> it.


A reference to how that is derived from the research you read would help.

>
> My personal study of the information and my own experiences cannot in
> any way compare to yours. I can only dream of being as competent as
> you Tony, maybe in 60 years or so eh? If i get to drink out of enough
> alluminium containers anyway.
>


Drinking from alluminium (sic) containers won't help you open your eyes.

--
Tony

"...has many omissions and contains much that is apocryphal, or at least
wildly inaccurate..."
Douglas Adams; The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
 
Ambrose Nankivell said the following on 16/01/2007 15:17:

> Don't be ridiculous: carrot cake would be inedible with chain oil in.


Carrot cake is pretty much inedible without chain oil in :)

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/
 
On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 22:04:51 GMT someone who may be Buck
<[email protected]> wrote this:-

>I don't have any problem making my mind up,
>I do have a problem however using the "evidence",
>provided by people with a vested interest,


Who are the people you are referring to and what is their vested
interest?


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54
 
Buck wrote:

> I think that is unfair, it's more to do with being shouted down by
> fools, I'm not here on a regular basis, the group Zealots view this
> as their "church", I find a smattering of sense in the dross.


The "group zealots" typically got there independently having been
shouting the other way first, and having proved themselves all quite
capable of standing up for their own thoughts and opinions rather than
simply being subsumed by Groupthink.

So it's pretty bloody rich that you come and pour scorn based on what
appears to be very limited understanding and then declare yourself
willing to be an Honest Broker for moderating a new recumbent newsgroup.
If /this/ is your idea of "objective" then you really are kidding
yourself *very* badly.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
On 01/17/2007 09:07:28 Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:

> Buck wrote:


>> I think that is unfair, it's more to do with being shouted down by fools,
>> I'm not here on a regular basis, the group Zealots view this as their
>> "church", I find a smattering of sense in the dross.


> The "group zealots" typically got there independently having been shouting
> the other way first, and having proved themselves all quite capable of
> standing up for their own thoughts and opinions rather than simply being
> subsumed by Groupthink.


> So it's pretty bloody rich that you come and pour scorn based on what
> appears to be very limited understanding and then declare yourself willing
> to be an Honest Broker for moderating a new recumbent newsgroup. If /this/
> is your idea of "objective" then you really are kidding yourself *very*
> badly.


> Pete.


You are entitled to your opinion but I'm not going to play your game, troll
someone else.

--

Buck

Give a little person a little power and create a big problem.

http://www.catrike.co.uk
 
On 01/16/2007 23:08:51 Tony Raven <[email protected]> wrote:

> Buck wrote on 16/01/2007 22:46 +0100:


>> I've read it all and then some, I don't bother to allude to my supposed
>> education as a last defence however.


> I can see why.


>> Helmets do provide some decelleration on impact


> Is that a fact backed up by evidence or an opinion masquerading as a fact?


>> Helmets need to made to reduce rotational forces, where in fact many
>> increase these forces, a large diameter helmet can increase the
>> possibility of neck injury, but a lower profile helmet does not suffer
>> this problem.


> Is that a fact backed up by physics or an opinion masquerading as a fact?
> Have you bothered to review the role of rotational forces in brain injury
> as well as neck injury?


>> An increase in injuries has been reported when helmet use is law, but
>> reading the reports suggests that this may well be because people wearing
>> helmets believe themselves to be impervious to harm, so the problem, if
>> that is the case, is not the helmet but the fool wearing it.


> A reference to how that is derived from the research you read would help.


>> My personal study of the information and my own experiences cannot in any
>> way compare to yours. I can only dream of being as competent as you
>> Tony, maybe in 60 years or so eh? If i get to drink out of enough
>> alluminium containers anyway.


> Drinking from alluminium (sic) containers won't help you open your eyes.


Woosh!
--

Buck

Give a little person a little power and create a big problem.

http://www.catrike.co.uk
 
On 01/17/2007 07:52:31 Paul Boyd <usenet.dont.work@plusnet> wrote:

> Ambrose Nankivell said the following on 16/01/2007 15:17:


>> Don't be ridiculous: carrot cake would be inedible with chain oil in.


> Carrot cake is pretty much inedible without chain oil in :)


Tesco's low fat carrot cake is delicious, not that I advocate it as a
viable replacement for red meat and fine wine.

--

Buck

Give a little person a little power and create a big problem.

http://www.catrike.co.uk
 
Buck wrote:
>
> You are entitled to your opinion but I'm not going to play your game, troll
> someone else.


Come and have a bit of a troll (oh, but it isn't a troll, it's "honest"
I suppose...) at other folk, and then accuse the people you attack of
trolling you! Pot, meet kettle, notice the dark colouring, or perhaps
"troll someone else" would be more up your street?

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
Ingo Keck <[email protected]> wrote:
> Btw, has someone had a closer look at the lates declaration of Hagel in
> Injury Prevention
> (http://ip.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/12/6/353?ct)? Unfortunately
> I can not get hold of it very easily (none of the libraries in my
> vicinity has the journal and I doubt that the editoral is worth the 12$
> they want for it), but the response from Peter W Ward sounds as if Hagel
> as editor of the journal asks for censorship in this case. Is that true?


No, at least not to my reading. I think I can reasonably quote the
last paragraph of the editorial:

"As the author of several pro-helmet papers I make no bones about my
conviction that enforced legislation is an effective preventive
measure. Does this bias permit me, however, as Editor, to suppress
eletters that I disagree with or even those I judge to be
scientifically wrong? No matter how frustrating or irritating I
might find them, I cannot. I wish I could because I find the
repeated, almost boilerplate arguments, tiresome and suspect many
readers share that view. But no self-respecting Editor can allow
his or her views to influence what they publish, even in the large
grey zone of eletters."

IOW, he would prefer to not publish these letters, but believes that
he is required to do so by his editorial standards.

Phil

--
http://www.kantaka.co.uk/ .oOo. public key: http://www.kantaka.co.uk/gpg.txt
 
Buck wrote:
> I don't have any problem making my mind up, I do have a problem however
> using the "evidence", provided by people with a vested interest, in order
> to make my mind up,


So which evidence *do* you use, and how do you decide whether anyone
involved has a vested interest?

> you obviously just agree with whoever shouts you down
> first.


Obviously. Do you even know my opinion on the matter?

Anthony
 
On 01/16/2007 23:26:11 "Alan Holmes" <[email protected]> wrote:

> "soup" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...


>> Alan Holmes wrote:


>>> No, but I have just checked, and will read, with interest, every word of
>>> wisdom which has been posted!


>> You not doing anything for a l-o-n-g time then? :)


> You guessed!:)-)


> Alan


>> -- www.cheesesoup.myby.co.uk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nileh1ZPGq4


Here you go Alan.

http://www.rmd.dft.gov.uk/project.asp?intProjectID=10083

--

Buck

Give a little person a little power and create a big problem.

http://www.catrike.co.uk
 
On 01/17/2007 09:55:31 Anthony Jones <[email protected]> wrote:

> Buck wrote:


>> I don't have any problem making my mind up, I do have a problem however
>> using the "evidence", provided by people with a vested interest, in order
>> to make my mind up,


> So which evidence *do* you use, and how do you decide whether anyone
> involved has a vested interest?


>> you obviously just agree with whoever shouts you down first.


> Obviously. Do you even know my opinion on the matter?


> Anthony


As much as you know mine, what's wrong don't like me treating you like
you treat me? Nice double standards, now get back in your box.

--

Buck

Give a little person a little power and create a big problem.

http://www.catrike.co.uk
 
Buck wrote:
>>> I don't have any problem making my mind up, I do have a problem however
>>> using the "evidence", provided by people with a vested interest, in
>>> order to make my mind up,

>
>> So which evidence *do* you use, and how do you decide whether anyone
>> involved has a vested interest?


Are you not going to answer this then?

>>> you obviously just agree with whoever shouts you down first.

>
>> Obviously. Do you even know my opinion on the matter?

>
>> Anthony

>
> As much as you know mine, what's wrong don't like me treating you like
> you treat me? Nice double standards, now get back in your box.


I was commenting on what you'd said in your previous post. You were
commenting on something I'd said nothing about. See the difference?

Anthony
 

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