How many of you carry a gun as part of your cycling equipment?

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Joe West, Oct 2, 2004.

  1. Hive

    Hive New Member

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    You got it right, BullGod, apathy means what goes around and so on, and that means it is our (collective) fault and that's the truth.
     


  2. Pegasos

    Pegasos New Member

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    Alright, here is my opinion on the subject,

    i have been arguing about this with many of my countrymen, in a native language cycling forum...

    Carrying some sort of weapon while cycling we refered to, just for the threat of dogs, not humans!

    It is unheard of that someone will attack a cyclist for any reason, about 1 in a million chance of that happening i would say..

    It is also very rare that people carry guns. A gun in public, would be carried only by a policeman, a criminal, or a citizen who for some reason thinks is threatened to be killed and has a issued a permit to carry a handgun after a long and thorough procedure through police etc.

    So naturally we were discussing other means of protection against dogs. I was the one furious from the attacks of stray dogs and, not in all seriousness, discussed about carrying a BB gun if wanting to go to the countryside for a ride. Others were telling me, that it would take too many bb's to actually kill or even just "stop" a dog, a dog that of course would not be a sitting target! Carrying a bat in the city, to unveil when an aggressive dog approaches, is also a bit far fetched. Can you imagine a cyclist pulling over to take out a bat and beat an attacking dog to death?! LOL

    Most of the other cyclists i discussed with were talking about ways to demoralize the stray dog. One said the dog should be looked straight in the eyes, and not loose contact, so that you will put fear into it and it will just stay barking at a distance. Another guy said that one should keep passing through, looking anywhere but in the dog's eyes, so that it will not sense provocation, thus keeping its distance, simply barking at the "intruder" to his supposed guarding grounds. In a few words we were discussing dog psychology in depth. I had some bad experiences with the road bike, when dogs attacked from the sides, forcing me to change directions to escape from a collision, which would be bad in much traffic.... but other people had even worse experiences, people with mtb's going all the way down from mountain tops. This guy was speaking about one time he was going down a mountain hill, when suddenly he entered a small rounded area, where there were about 10 stray dogs.. and let me tell you they were not living room poodles, but guard dogs, the ones that guard sheep, big and wild! Could belong to a sheep owner in the area, who knows. The thing is they almost traped him, he got really scared, and at this point of action we discussed the dog psychology again. These guard dogs, obviously guard an area, AND take care of sheep that try to escape from the herd!!! This guy that found himself in this position was probably the most humanistic animal-friendly like in the forum we were discussing. He said that he slowly took some steps back, so as to get away from their area, according to him, if he hurried, or run, he would immediately find himself between the dogs' teeth! The dogs were approaching him slowly, barking and growling... then he said he slowly turned his back on the dogs and continued to take small steps away from their "area"... he said he was scared shitless, as he felt the breath of the dogs barking their lungs out, about 10 cm from his legs! But finally he got away with no harm at all! And this was his point, if you show you are leaving, and do not want to stay in the dog's perceived "area", then the dog will not attack you.... naturally other members argued, that one should immediately put the bicycle between him and the dog(s) and stay that way untill he can go further away..

    All in all, i am not thinking of carrying any short of weapon with me, although i nearly got bitten twice. I am thinking of perfecting a sudden powerfull move with my leg, a super kick, that if thrown away at the RIGHT moment, will inflict pain on the dog and make me have my revenge, as well as escape the danger of continuous hunting. Of course, there is the danger of the dog grabbing my foot with the teeth in the right moment (for the dog!), or losing balance, which could also prove disastrous, especially if on a car road.... there is even the danger that if and when the super kick succeeds, the dog will be more furious and aggressive, and will continue the hunt, instead of taking a lesson and running away crying... i m still thinking about this issue to reach the best decision.
     
  3. CAMPYBOB

    CAMPYBOB Well-Known Member

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    "Should be" and 'are' are two entirely different concepts. I learned the difference at an early age.

    I'm not speaking theoretically. I'm speaking realistically.

    In the what?...few hundred thousand years we've been on this planet little has changed in human behavior. I'm of the opinion that it never will.

    There's good guys and there's bad guys. I prefer to be able put myself at as much of an advantage as possible when dealing with the morons life presents.

    The monitor has ZERO to do with the reality of my personal protection and security. This 1911A1 pistol, on the other hand, enables me to go safely into that dark night.

    Kind regards and safe cycling to you sir,
    CampyBob
     
  4. Hive

    Hive New Member

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    Brovo.

    Amazing, CampyBob, how great minds agree on common sense issues. A second from me and, I am sure, form those just like us.
     
  5. kdelong

    kdelong Well-Known Member

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    I'm not replying to argue firearms. I own several, I carry one legally, and I have had to use one once but I am still here and he is not. I thank God every day that I live in America where we have the right to bear arms, otherwise...... Enough said about that.

    In regards to dogs, don't carry a gun to shoot the strays. A BB gun will just make it mad. If it is legal in your country, get some pepper spray. It works really well and does not permanently injure the dog. He might even think twice about chasing the next cyclist he sees, it works for skunks.

    If pepper spray is not legal in your country, purchase some ammonia. Dilute it with water twice the amount of the ammonia and put it in a spray bottle. Spray the dog on the face if it gets too close. Sometimes just spraying towards the dog will irritate its nose and eyes enough to cause it to break off the chase. If you want to blind the dog and really mess it up, don't dilute the ammonia, but I don't believe in being outright cruel to an animal unless it is trying to kill me!
     
  6. Pegasos

    Pegasos New Member

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    Listen dear fellow man, i am simply applying a different logic, a different "philosophy" if you will in this entire issue. That is what i am trying to make you understand, using examples like the one with the computer screen!

    The successfull "merging" of "Should be" and "are", is what makes human history and civilisation go forth, according to my logic. There "should be" another way to move around, than the obvious ways that "are" available thought the primitive man, and invented the ...wheel!

    There "should be" another explanation for the grounds we live on, other than that they "are" flat, thought someone, and with succesfull calculations realized the earth is actually a sphere rotating etc.

    That is the way i see it. That is how the theoretical becomes a whole new reality.


    That is called a pessimistic and fatalistic view of life and human beings.



    Surely i agree.

    The point is, what is it that makes people bad, what is it that makes people morons. These causes should change, if we want to see the truth of human nature, and judge humans objectively. What are these causes? Is it poverty? Is it social conditions? Is it popular culture? Is it just "evil"?

    Actually this is a fundamental philosophical issue. Are people inherently bad, or inherently good? I d like to believe the second one..


    Anyways, its obviously not the right place to get into such a conversation in great depth..


    I m not denying you that right.

    To you too..
     
  7. Akadat

    Akadat New Member

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    Hi Pegasos,

    I understand what you say and am happy to continue this line of discussion because it is fundamental to the topic of carrying a gun while cycling.

    As humans we have power over all other forms of life on this planet. Some lower forms of life also have power over us for example a mosquito, flea, or microbe can kill us just the same as an elephant or a lion. From a spiritual perspective we humans have choices and are responsibe for our actions, but the flea and the lion have to obey their instinct and are not responsible.

    Our 'destiny among the stars' is not found on this earth anywhere except in our own hearts. It is a waste of time waiting for the world to change or trying to change the world. The world is ever changing yet remains the same: people eat, shit, love, and fight today the same as Adam and Eve did. Today we are playing with different toys but the human mind is the same as always - some good and some bad. The two cannot be separated in the outside world, but both good and bad can be overcome within while the world continues as before.

    In a life-threatening situation it is not only our duty to preserve our own life but also our strongest instinct. A gun is the best tool for self defense for the good as well as the bad. If the mind is well commanded then the need for using the tool is reduced; but the tool will be used responsibly and with great skill should there be no other choice.
     
  8. Hive

    Hive New Member

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    I love the pepper spray.

    It is a favorite of the USPS, regardless of laws. Works, light carry weight, non lethal, but subject to wind direction/pressure.

    It is also a good idea to carry hot spray when hiking in woods, even the neighborhood, if in a typical city. Rabid cats, racoons, coyotes, dogs and such are abundant and you never know, not to mention the rabid punk.

    If in bear country, biking or walking, a firearm and pepper spray are mandatory, if you value safety or wish to protect others with you, like your children or pets. Being clueless could be troublesome. (I fish trout and steehead in some backwoods spots. One meeting with a sow with cubs, while knee deep midstream, you come to suddenly understand the need. She ambled on, but we nearly had to change our shorts. There was literally no place to go. We stood still and hoped not to be noticed. Not the best experience but we learned quickly; may not be a next time, but not leaving that to chance.)

    When it comes to personal safety, the law never enters into it, for me. When it hits the fan, the Lone Ranger is usually helping others, if you get my drift.

    Your choice. No one really cares about the philosophy or psych of that choice. Youo do what you want. And, when you get down to it, no one really cares about laws when it comes to breathing, in a bad experience.

    For me, heaven is not dying (W. Allen) I like it here, most of the time. Read the short verse below and give it some thought. Lucas has it right.
     
  9. Pegasos

    Pegasos New Member

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    Well.... are you saying you ve actually killed a man?! Maybe i shouldnt be asking that question, but i m just curious because i havent spoken, even in the internet, with anyone who has killed before...

    Actually, my grandfather may have been such a person since he fought during WW2 and the civil war immediately after, but i never discussed such issues with him, till he died, so i ll never know. Well, now that i think of it, i wouldnt know it for any other people i have been talking to during my life, would I? :rolleyes:


    Well, i think this argument is raging in your country, about the goods and bads of guns and their possesion. I am really not from the people who should express an opinion about your country's debate about arms. I ll just note this: i thank the God every day simply for being alive, for the fact that i live, and i m not even sure it is worth doing that! LOL!!

    Your right to bear arms is i guess justified by the dangers you face. I would say, that up to now in my country, i struggle for the right NOT to bear arms, meaning of course, not to be forced to do something like that, meaning that society should NOT become any more dangerous than it is. Thankfully it is not becoming that (yet!).

    Pretty sophisticated solutions, however i m still thinking of this friend of mine who manages to throw away the super kick at a barking dog, passing through! The problem is he was on a Yahama DT 250 when he achieved it, which has a whole lot different symmetry and balance centers than a road bike has... lol :)
     
  10. Pegasos

    Pegasos New Member

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    Hello Akadat,

    our power over all other forms of life, is actually our technical power over all other animal and of course plant forms of life. There are forces that we do not have power over, yet.

    And, judging by the state of the planet, i would say we havent handled that power to the best that our minds and at least our reasoning, if not our human emotions, have the ability to.



    How about human (lower) insticts? Wouldnt you say they have been more powerfull than our "responsibility" towards others and towards ..lets say the planet?

    Right, so what is the ideal for one to do? Stay low and keep doing what is told?


    I wonder, did Adam and Eve started shiting AFTER the fall from Paradise? It must have been one of the punishments by God! (joke)

    Seriously now, i dont believe in the 'Adam and Eve' little story. The Earth has been here for 5 billion years and humans have been inhabiting the place for hundreds of thousand of years. I personally believe there have been times of technological advancement on this earth before ours, swept away by time or by natural or manmade disasters... its only that we can never know about these, if they existed, if all traces of such a civilisation are gone.


    The human mind is what you make it to become. This is true on a personal as well as (unfortunately) on a massive level. "Good" and "bad" are just social structures mostly, with only ONE universal exception: what is pro-life, is essentially good, what is anti-life is essentially bad.... thats what i think.


    I dont disagree on the above. Its common sense. The point is how did we get at that point.... whose fault is it... etc
     
  11. stevebaby

    stevebaby New Member

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    :D 707+ in favour of gun control. 100 against. Your figures. Add'em up. If you can.
     
  12. CAMPYBOB

    CAMPYBOB Well-Known Member

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    ...and 4.4 million NRA members.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Then there's the GOA, the JPFO, the OGCA, the Second Amendment Foundation, the Citizens' Committee For the Right To Keep And Bear Arms...and for you, Stevie, there's always The Pink Pistols.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Pegasos

    Pegasos New Member

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    Its really out of curiosity that i am answering this message, but you seem to have many funny and/or weird organisations over there in America!

    Alright, firstly i know nothing about these organisations whose logos you posted, i just write for recreational puproses. Not trying to take either sides of all these issues or criticize maliciously.


    This National Rifle Association, must be in big money, connected to the arm companies, obviously. Nice logo though.

    The Gun Owners of America, strikes me as a weird name, something like "The Hat Owners of Europe", or "The Fridge Owners of Russia", if such organisations existed! Its too general as a term, is like a criminal, with a policeman bonded in some way, simply from their common Ownership of Guns in America?!

    The Jews, well, its no wonder they are pro-gun ownership, if America is not full of guns, it will not be possible for American governments to provide all these guns and military equipment to Israel, so that the Jews there can protect themselves from the countless millions of crazy arabs and muslims around them!

    The Pink Pistols organisation was a surprise! LOL!!! It says "armed gays dont get bashed" in their website!!!!
    I wouldnt feel safe though if there was an armed lesbo for example anywhere around me! :D
     
  14. CAMPYBOB

    CAMPYBOB Well-Known Member

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    United We Stand!
     
  15. kdelong

    kdelong Well-Known Member

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    I prefer not to think of him as a man but as a human animal! He broke into my house and threatened the lives of my wife, our three daughters, and me. I protected us, but it is not something that a family should have to go through. It destroyed the marriage and effected the girls. This occurred in the 1970's and one of the girls still occasionally has nightmares about it. All three had to undergo therapy.

    I did not know it at the time, but it came out in the hearing that this blight on humankind had killed one of his other victims and seriously injured another one. Although no charges were filed against me, my family and I paid a heavy price for defending ourselves. It is something that I really would like to forget, but if it were not for our Second Amendment here in the US, I would not be here to post on this thread.
     
  16. Pegasos

    Pegasos New Member

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    Well i would have done the same thing you did, if not worse, no doubt about that. Sad to hear you had to face such an unfortunate situation. I dont understand how could this have destroyed your marriage though..

    Is this kind of violent criminal activity what is refered to in your country as a "home invasion"? Let me just for the sake of conversation make a certain point here. In my country, a home invasion is practically unheard of. The only way criminals would enter a house, would be if they were sure that the owners were away, and they break in to steal whatever they can and get away...it occurs mostly in the summer in large cities, where the population has gone on holiday. The only exceptions, have been a few isolated incidents, one or two, where old people have died. These cases, were criminal poor foreign immigrants, or ethnical criminal gypsies (Roma), (i am pointing out that no native person would think of doing that) who entered small houses of single very old occupants, 75+ year old ones, in the isolated outskirts of large cities. They then used ropes or hit the helpless old people, and made them hold still some way, usually tied them to their bed. Then they took whatever they found, valuable things in the house, and run away. Again, even in these cases of "home invasions", simply entering a house to hurt someone, is simply unthinkable! Its just that in a couple of cases, when hitting the old people to restrain them or get information on hidden money, etc, they did it too hard and had fatal results..

    So, my point is, that in a society with no weapons being around in the mainstream public, no body, even criminals, are thinking of harming, without a reason, even if they are pieces of sh*t, like the aforementioned ones that entered the houses of the old people.

    In fact, the only cases of homicides that occur in my country, are attributed to two reasons: 1., cases of mob shootings, that involve foreign mob groups, albanian mafia, russian mafia, rumanian mafia, or whatever, which are about a single hit made, without any one else being affected, and without anyone understanding the reasons, apart from the mobsters themselves. These are as frequent as 1 homicide every 2-5 years. Almost unnoticeable. 2., homicides made by national ethnic people of this country, are always crimes of passion, cheating woman/girlfriend/couple killed for example, or are caused by lunacy that has struck an individual, for example man kills child and wife then commits suicide, due to a fight or whatever other f*cked up reason. These are as frequent as one incident every 10 or 20 years.... almost "expectable", if one sees the percentages of lunacy that may heavily strike the general population..

    Homicide in itself is shocking for the public here. It is not "acceptable". It is not considered a "common" crime. It is like, the DEVIANT face of evil showing up every now and then in the human society. It is not like an everyday news story, which i believe is more or less the case in your country... Death is not acceptable here and i believe all these would be different if this country allowed guns for the public.

    And let me finish with one incident, to strengthen my point. As i have said, the only people allowed guns are police officers, and maybe exceptions of high ranking private security people. This is for handguns. Anyone can get a hunting rifle though, if used for hunting, provably being a hunter, being of age, having stoped by repeatedly from the local police station to be seen and heard, etc, etc.

    Well, one of these marginal incidents i talked about occured one or two years ago... a company of hunters, five of them, were all shot down one day, as they were hunting, by a hunting rifle. All these weapons that are allowed for hunters, are only the ones using these many small pellets, in a round big cartridge. It later proved that they were all, experienced hunters, yet they were shot dead all of them, by this single person, who had repeatedly argued with them, about not hunting on, or close to his land.. which was nearby or something. So, such a thing occurs, just by the existance of a few thousand hunting weapons in a whole country! I cant even IMAGINE what i would be hearing in the news if everyone had access to handguns, machine guns, etc.... the country would become an everyday slaughterhouse, whilst up to now, death is considered the most serious of issues, not a simple news report..... thats is why although i more or less like guns, i would never be positive in opening their market for the public in my country......
     
  17. CAMPYBOB

    CAMPYBOB Well-Known Member

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    I dont understand how could this have destroyed your marriage though..

    The strains of beng interrogated, post traumatic stres syndrome, the expense of mounting a legal defense, the stress of living with the knowledge that you've had to kill another person, the nightmares from both the crime and the defense against it, the public noteriaty, living with threats of revenge from the dead criminal's friends and family, the endless contact with police, detectives, prosecutors, lawyers...

    The after-effects of deadly force self-defense has been well documented as the driving force behind ending even solid relationships.
     
  18. POGATA

    POGATA New Member

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  19. cbjesseeNH

    cbjesseeNH New Member

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    1045pm at night in a violent part of town - want to bet whether the shooter was a legal concealed carry license holder riding home from an NRA meeting?

    We had a gangbanger shoot a cop in Boston while making a getaway on a bike this past year. Again, not your example of an upstanding citizen.

    While you need a permit to carry a gun in almost all of the US, you don't need one to ride a bike or to be a criminal. And darned if those bike-riding criminals just don't ignore the guns laws.

    If anyone thought this thread was advocating that criminals who ride bikes should carry guns, I might correct that notion.
     
  20. HipneckOnWheels

    HipneckOnWheels New Member

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    Except for the redundancies (inevtaible with such a long thread, I guess), personal feuds, technical firepower arguments, and World War II debates this is an interesting discussion.

    I was born and raised in the foothills of the Cascade range in Northern California.This is an area where hippies and rednecks have been breeding for forty years, so guns and bikes together aren’t always a shocking idea. Unlike Southern California (a virtual “non-issue” region) Northern California’s interpretation of the state’s CCW law is closer to “Shall Issue” in most counties.

    I choose to carry to keep the choice (and me, if need be) alive.
    Especially on a bike.

    I usually carry a Glock 26 (9mm) with an extra mag. I don’t wear Spandex--mountain bike shorts with belt loops and pockets and an untucked bike shirt are usually all the concealment I need.

    In populated areas (where I might be getting off my bike and going inside):
    Inside The Waistband holster, behind the right hip.
    Or a Smart Carry holster (an inside the waistband fanny pack).

    On rural roads:
    Inside The Waistband holster or Wilderness Safepacker (small, square non-gun looking quick-access carrying case that be attached to body or bike in several ways).

    In the woods (we have mountain lions, bears, occasional dog packs, cranksters, poachers, pot growing banditos, and any number of admittedly rare--but nonetheless real--threats to safety):
    On the hip, Fobus plastic retention holster.

    With the exception of the last case, I carry with an empty chamber.
    I practice one-handed draw & rack (on my belt, shoe, the bike) in the unlikely event that I am not able to use two hands to work the slide. I believe my awareness level and regular practice will allow me to bring the gun into play quick enough for most scenarios I might face. (And yes, I know the scenario I’ll probabaly face is one I never planned for--one of my favorite things about life!)

    I’d like to touch on two of the common reasons posters have said they “thought about carrying a gun while biking” and why educated gun owners would never consider shooting in such cases.

    1) Bad Cars. I would not shoot at a car that tried (or did) run me off the road. I’m alive and they’re continuing on--it's my tough luck and their bad karma. If they come back or get out of the car to do more harm, I’ll move to cover and ready my weapon. It’s still their choice at that point.

    2) Bad Dogs. Pepper Spray works great and can be deployed while pedalling away. Pumps, water bottles, the bike itself can all be used. If I have to shoot a dog, it means I’m off my bike and engaged in a serious fight. Getting chased (or even bit, but escaping) isn’t enough for me to consider shooting a dog. I'm surprised more people don't mention a high-pitched air horn or whistle--this usually even gets the scariest looking dog to pull up short and do that goofy cocked head look while I get away.
    But not always.

    Please don’t tell me to find a safer place to ride. I’m not scared of the beautiful areas I ride in and I’ve never had to draw my gun. But the few times I would have felt more comfortable having one with me (mountain lion pulling a sheep through a fence, cars that slow down or stop after passing me in the middle of nowhere, other people with guns) I did.
    That's reason enough for me to keep carrying.

    I’m willing to take some lumps, falls, wrecks, dog bites, and shit from strangers as part of the price of riding my bike. I love to ride. It feels like freedom. So does carrying my gun.
    I’m looking into getting a Nevada and Utah permit as well. This would expand the range of reciprocity to where I could legally carry while riding a bike across the entire country. At least until I get to New Jersey or Washington, D.C.--y’know where I might need it the most....

    Which leads me to a question--does anyone know if the laws which allow us to drive through any state with a gun in the car (as long as they are unloaded and in a seperate compartment from the ammo) would apply to a cross-country touring bike? Could we disable the gun, put the ammo in a seperate pannier, and be legal (as the bike is our mode of transportation) even without a concealed carry permit? Then re-load the gun and have it for camping, motel rooms, etc.? What do motorcyclists do?

    Thanks to Joe and the rest of you for this thread from a long-haired, middle-aged pistol-packing bike-riding hipneck who doesn't hunt, join the NRA, or care what other people think about how I go about my American way.

    Ride Safe!
     
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