How many of you carry a gun as part of your cycling equipment?

[CAMPYBOB]

So, are you or are you not a racist?

Tony, Do you have trouble reading English? Allow me to copy Your words...followed by mine.

You know...the ones you just copied???

____________________________________________________________

"I can detect that the thinly veiled racists are alive and well in this thread...

Incorrect, but thanks for playing."

_____________________________________________________________


Most racists will scurry away and deny the fact, but you appear to be a upstanding, no-nonsense, straight-talking kind of guy so expect you admit readily to how you feel.

I don't "feel" much of anything. I just understand the cold, hard facts of the matter and call them where they fall. I would marry Condoleezza Rice in a heartbeat and just a quickly put a boot up Diane Feinswine'sw fat, ugly, liberal ass. The races aren't the issue here. The grey matter is.

If it's an inbred, drunk white hilljack in a pickup truck that threatens my life, his time on the planet will be just as much in jeopardy as a crackhead ghetto rat. Methfreak tweakers, coked up yuppies, robbers and muggers of any race, creed or color...I hate them all. I'm your basic equal opportunity bigot: I hate all stupid criminals equally.

Don't get me started on liberal, self effacing pukes though. There, I will freely admit a distinct bias against the ignorant fools.

Racism has NOTHING to do with self defense. If the FUBU fits, though...

 

[tonyzackery]

Racism has NOTHING to do with self defense. If the FUBU fits, though...

Talkin' out the side of your ###, er, I mean neck...Make it plain CAMPY...or can't you talk straight English???

 

[kdelong]

Talkin' out the side of your ###, er, I mean neck...Make it plain CAMPY...or can't you talk straight English???

I don't know Tony, Bob's comment sounds pretty straight to me and the only language that I speak is plain old American English. It may be that we speak a different dialect here in Ohio than what you speak in the Pacific Northwest.....but that can't be right, I didn't have any language problems during my visit to Bellingham. Maybe it is the Canadian influence.....yeah, that must be it! Dos Vadanya!

 

[CAMPYBOB]

Talkin' out the side of your ###, er, I mean neck...Make it plain CAMPY...or can't you talk straight English???

You're a moron or a troll.

There.

Do you need that statement simplified even more for you?

 

[CAMPYBOB]

Not even church is safe any more...

7 wounded this morning.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/07/27/church.shooting/?iref=mpstoryview

Yes..."Just stay away from those bad neighborhoods."

Hmmm? Where have I heard that one before? Church must be a very bad neighborhood, huh?

 

[tonyzackery]

Talkin' out the side of your ###, er, I mean neck...Make it plain CAMPY...or can't you talk straight English???

You're a moron or a troll.

There.

Do you need that statement simplified even more for you?

Typical...didn't think you had to cajones to fess up...anyway...

 

[tonyzackery]

I don't know Tony, Bob's comment sounds pretty straight to me and the only language that I speak is plain old American English. It may be that we speak a different dialect here in Ohio than what you speak in the Pacific Northwest.....but that can't be right, I didn't have any language problems during my visit to Bellingham. Maybe it is the Canadian influence.....yeah, that must be it! Dos Vadanya!

You don't warrant a response...

 

[CAMPYBOB]

Typical...didn't think you had to cajones to fess up...anyway...

Well thanks for clearing up the moron vs troll question.

Moron.

 

[kdelong]

You don't warrant a response...

Yet you responded anyway!

 

[stevebaby]

Not even church is safe any more...

7 wounded this morning.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/07/27/church.shooting/?iref=mpstoryview

Yes..."Just stay away from those bad neighborhoods."

Hmmm? Where have I heard that one before? Church must be a very bad neighborhood, huh?

Act of God.They must have been really sinful or God wouldn't allow this to happen.
Churches are full of nutters, the last people who should be armed.

 

[stevebaby]

Typical...didn't think you had to cajones to fess up...anyway...

Well thanks for clearing up the moron vs troll question.

Moron.

You aren't very bright, are you spongebob?
Do you resent that everyone is so much smarter than you?

 

[CAMPYBOB]

Do you resent that everyone is so much smarter than you?

Not at all, Stevebaby Do you resent being in the same asshat moron catagory?

At least you did get one thing correct. Churches are full of loons. So are the shopping malls. And schools. And colleges. And bars and eateries. And the streets are full of criminals, thugs and oxygen thieves and drivers full of rage.



From Cnn News:
Sunday's attack was the fourth time in 15 months that an American church became a scene of a fatal shooting.

Sunday's attack was the fourth time in 15 months that an American church became a scene of a fatal shooting.

In December 2007, a 24-year-old former missionary candidate killed two people at a suburban Denver, Colorado, missionary training center and two more at a Colorado Springs megachurch the following day. The gunman, Matthew Murray, killed himself after being shot by a security guard.

The previous August, police said, 52-year-old Eiken Saimon shot and killed three people and wounded five others at a Congregational church in Neosho, Missouri. The attack left three people dead and five wounded.

And that May, in Moscow, Idaho, 36-year-old Jason Hamilton fatally shot a police officer and a sexton at First Presbyterian Church, then killed himself before police stormed the building. Hamilton's wife was found shot to death in the bedroom of their Moscow home after the church shootings.

Be sure to avoid the churches, the shopping malls, the schools, the colleges and the roads. They be baaaad 'hoods yo!

Oh, and Tonybaby, I hope you noticed that the latest church murderer was a white devil. And an older white debil at that. Like I said a whole bunch of posts earlier, stupid comes in every color. Stevebaby is still working hard to prove his town got its' fair share.

If you want to ride around unarmed, no problem as far as I'm concerned. Darwin will continue adding chlorine to the gene pool.

 

[CAMPYBOB]

BREWERYTOWN - May 11, 2008 (WPVI) -- Police have released the name of a man who was shot Saturday night.



The victim has been identified by Philadelphia police as Nathanial Nash, 19. He was shot as he rode his bicycle away from a home along the 1600 block of North Dover Street about 15 minutes before midnight Saturday.

Medics rushed Nash to Hahnemann Hospital, but he died shortly after getting there.

Police say their suspect in the deadly shooting is a black man in his 20s, about 5' 6" tall, weighing about 140 pounds. He was wearing a grey hooded sweatshirt and beige pants and was seen running from the scene.


Note: Victim was also black.

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/take_action&id=6135642

 

[stevebaby]

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2008/jul/28/church-shooting-police-find-manifesto-suspects-car/
Right wing nutter....one of spongie's ilk.....
The shooter is exactly the type of nutter that spongie and others of his ilk would arm with deadly weapons.
Lunacy.

 

[stevebaby]

Not even church is safe any more...

7 wounded this morning.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/07/27/church.shooting/?iref=mpstoryview

Yes..."Just stay away from those bad neighborhoods."

Hmmm? Where have I heard that one before? Church must be a very bad neighborhood, huh?

When Right wing whackos turn up armed with lethal (and LEGAL!) weapons, then yes, church is a dangerous place.
As is any other place occupied by these nutters.

 

[stevebaby]

Not even church is safe any more...

7 wounded this morning.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/07/27/church.shooting/?iref=mpstoryview

Yes..."Just stay away from those bad neighborhoods."

Hmmm? Where have I heard that one before? Church must be a very bad neighborhood, huh?

Let's see....a rabid Conservative (angered by his FOODSTAMPS(!) being cut off) attacks a Church with a record of espousing women's rights, desegregation and gay rights, killing 2 of its members....and spongebrain wants to supply MORE weapons to these right wing whackjobs.
Did you recruit this guy spongie?
What did you promise him...MORE FOODSTAMPS?
Given the frequency with which you shoot yourself in the foot, spongie...should you be anywhere near a firearm?

 

[tonyzackery]

Typical...didn't think you had to cajones to fess up...anyway...

Well thanks for clearing up the moron vs troll question.

Moron.

Moronic enough to distinguish a probable card-carrying, hood-wearing, still in the closet KKK/militia member. The very kind of insecure, gun-toting, racist, at-the-ready-for-the-impending-race war chap that should be spouting his drivel at the Stormfront website and not a cycling forums website...Yep, that's how moronic I am. Thanks for outing me...

I'm done with you. With my permission, you may have the last word as you're the one who OBVIOUSLY needs it. After all, you don't feel safe on a bicycle unless you got your gatt...insecure, impotent, weakling of a so-called man...Regardless, I hope something occurs in your life such that you see the light...I have my doubts, however...Hasta la vista, baby...

 

[CAMPYBOB]

Did you recruit this guy spongie?

No, but he is just another whackjob...much like you. He ended the lives of two people that did not deserve to die, yet were too liberal to defend themselves.

Perhaps if they concerned themselves less with gay/women/illegal immigrant rights and more with the right to self-defense they would still be alive.

 

[Matt888]

I'm a bit confused Jeff.

You can't take me seriously because I don't post anything related to cycling (this is a bit of a stretch but I'll hang with you for a few sentences)

Do a search on this forum for "Americano" and I do indeed believe you'll find some posts that (using your logic) will allow you to take me seriously. In addition, you search will answer your question about what kind of bicycle I ride.

Now that you can take me seriously... let's discuss Mr. Mills for a minute...

"Individual rights stop when they start interfering with other people's rights"

In a free market society, one could easily argue (as I am about to) that the act of simply existing "interferes with other people's rights".

How so?

Let's start with a fairly common economic presumption that "all things of value are scarce"... meaning; if an object is valuable to a society; it is available in limited quantities.

Some examples of valuable goods:

Food
Water (in some regions)
Gold
Land
Bicycles

In the act of consuming (using... taking off the market) a good, I make it unavalable to everyone else in my society. By my act of consumption, I have "interfered" with the rights of everyone else who may have wanted to consume that good in my society by using it for myself. Do you see where I'm headed?

In ANY society... human interactions are RIFE with people interfering on the rights of other people and such interactions are absolutely impossible to stop.

So... who decides what is right for the society and who should have their freedoms limited?

Is it a simple majority vote?
Is it determined by the strength of the participants?
Perhaps by the group who is fastest on their bicycles?

Who decides what freedoms should be limited?

Is it by a 2/3rds majority vote?
Is it by who has the most money?
Is it by the most educated of the masses?

Imagine the mess we are very quickly in... everyone is complaining that someone else is "interfering with their rights" in a way that is a negative impact to society... rules are passed (let's call them laws)... freedoms quickly taken away as the masses determine (by some means) that more and more rights are a negative impact to society. Soon... everyone's right to do anything is stripped away by the group who is granted the right to be the enforcer of what's good for society (let's call that rule Government).

Smoking is BAD for society... let's outlaw smoking!!!

Riding in cars without using your seatbelt is bad for society... let's mandate seatbelt laws!

Not using a helmet on a motorcycle is bad for society... let's mandate the use of a helmet!!

Guns are bad for society... outlaw guns!!!

One after one... the masses clamor for the elimination of personal rights to "benefit" society.

One by one... freedoms fall and people are no longer free to make their own choices.

Sound familiar?

Mr. Mills has it ALL wrong and his ideas are spectacularly short-sighted.

Any society that seeks to reduce the freedoms of "the few"for the benefit of the masses will soon find itself with a society that is anything BUT free.

How about a much simpler idea (from the great mind of Joe West, one of those hybrow thinker types)...

How about we start with the premise that:

Everyone.
Is.
Free.
To.
Do.
Whatever.
They.
Want.
To.
Do.

As long as it doesn't violate the following single rule:

1. You can't limit the freedoms of any other individual.

So... murder is out becasue you clearly limit the freedom of someone if you murder them.

Theft is out because you limit the freedom of someone to do what they want with their personal property if you steal it.

Rape is out since you clearly limit the freedom of someone while you are raping them.

Well... you get the picture.

Now that we have the "anti-anarchy" rule out of the way...

You are now free to do anything you want.

Smoke, drink, get high, run with scissors, stick your fingers in a light socket.

As long as you stick to the rule (we call it the personal property right rule and it is what makes free-markets exist) you are really free!

Listen closely to me.

Governments DO NOT grant Freedoms and governments DO NOT have the right to take them away.

The creator (whatever or whoever she/he may be) granted us to be free to do whatever we want to do and no entity has the power to take that freedom away from us.

Some of us certainly can give our freedoms away if we choose (such as voting for a helmet law).

Others have our freedoms stripped by our Governments (the "few" who control the masses)

Still others give away their freedoms and then demand that Governments take freedoms from others so that they can feel "Safe".

Does anyone really think that laws should be created to keep people from hurting themselves? For crying out loud... if you want to fry your brain on drugs; help yourself... the world needs McDonald's workers. If you want to split your skull on the pavement because you don't like helmets... help yourself!

No sir... Mr. Mills was not a very lucid thinker at all thinks I.

Let me re-write Mr. Mills concept in a form I find palatable:

The rights of an individual stop when they die.

I am incredibly happy to see that there are others on this forum who think like I do. I write what I do mostly for them... because I know they will read these words and understand just as I read their words and understand.

Those of you who read what I write and think to yourself "this gentlemen is absolutely mad"...

Go to the search function on this forum and type the word "Americano"
<grin>

Joe

You’re a bit confused? No ****! Your whole theory of everyone can do what they want unless they limit the freedoms of others directly correlates with Mr Mills line”Individual rights stop when they start interfering with other people's rights". It’s the exact same principle. Then you go on to say he's not a very lucid thinker and that Mr. Mills has it ALL wrong and his ideas are spectacularly short-sighted. Yet you agree with him.



Is this a discussion or are you trying to push your agenda? Even trying to raise funds in order to push your agenda it would seem from what I've read from some other posts. Are you on the campaign trail perhaps? This thread is massive and both sides have been arguing their point extensively over and over and over and over. And don't get me wrong, a lot of what you are saying is perfectly logical (if not a touch archaic), but some of it really doesn't make sense. Which is not to say i’m not interested in reading more, because your conviction is admirable, just a little misguided and it can be far too easy to argue such a problematic issue from behind an avitar?



You say with great emphasis that we should all be free to do what we want.

Then you come straight back with a golden rule. By instituting this rule you automatically make it not ok to do what you want.



I don't disagree with your rule; it's actually quite a good one. It's there to keep people safe from harming each other and this seems fair and just to most. In using this rule to justify harming someone who intends to harm you, you are arguing that two wrongs indeed make a right.

But it instantly limits the doing what you want part. So in turn makes the owning of a gun on your own terms impossible because there has to be conditions attached. Because you can't do what you want with it and because the very nature of a gun, when in the wrong hands has been designed to limit the freedoms of those as seen fit by the user of the gun. There is a huge grey area here you have created here.

The whole do what you want thing and the do not limit another individuals freedoms do not go hand in hand when it comes to gun ownership. It's a last man standing sort of ideal that is conducive to violence, history proves that, and every person that has ever died at the hand of another via a gun has been stripped of their individual freedom to live.

Straight forward 18th century logic is far less relevant these days.

You are simply fighting one side of an argument, that itself only outlines the much larger social issue. The need for guns as self defence from those who have guns, who in turn mean you harm. It's a valid point and people feel very strongly about defending themselves and those they care about, but enabling more people to have guns will never resolve the issue of crazy people with guns harming others, this is also a very logical way of looking at it. If you argue that because the problem is so far reaching that it's past the point of no return and the only answer is to arm socially responsible people in order to protect them from the irresponsible, you basically saying that the whole world has gone to **** and there is nothing we can do about it. Then we will most definitely be doing what we want, or should I say whatever we can in order just to survive, and there is a word for that. I certainly don't have that view, as the society I live in does not reflect this way of thinking. It's obviously different in America than it is here in Australia as it almost seems from the outside that you guys almost hunt each other for sport, such is the portrait of you through international media (whether this is fact or not doesn't detract from how it's seen from the outside), and this is a frightening view of America shared by many, and you are perpetuating this view with your argument, whether you like it or not.



In a push to progress as a society we should be far less concerned with fighting to uphold outdated laws and far more concerned with not only isolating the problems, but actually fixing them.



It’s certainly a strange debate to be having in a bike forum but this is clearly the world some of us live in.



There is also some disturbing racial undertones in some of the arguments presented here, particularly the use of hip hop slang and culture as way of isolating a few from the many, as well as the aggressive stance taken by both sides at delivering your points when referring to political beliefs and it really only detracts from the point that is trying to be made (can make for some amusing reading though). I'd much rather hear your thoughts on what you would have put in place when it come to legislating against violent behaviour and rehabilitating and re-educating those that are indeed deemed the socially irresponsible among us. These are the tough questions to answer. And it’s pretty clear where the line in the sand in this thread is and who stands on which side of it. But, to answer the op question, no I don't carry a gun when I ride; there is quite simply no need. I find it very difficult to imagine having such a need in fact.

 

[Joe West]

Now THAT is funny... Good one Steve.

Act of God.They must have been really sinful or God wouldn't allow this to happen.
Churches are full of nutters, the last people who should be armed.