How many of you carry a gun as part of your cycling equipment?

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Joe West, Oct 2, 2004.

  1. slothluvchunk

    slothluvchunk New Member

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    Jason,
    That was a very well written response.
    I notice that most of the people who seem more vehemently opposed to this idea are from other countries where the idea of legally being able to carry doesn't exist.
    They may not be aware that many of us in the U.S. live in places where we *can* legally carry, and in some states (WY, VT, and others) there is "Constitutional Carry" where a concealed weapon can be carried without a special permit or training. As I mentioned in an earlier page, there are many reasons to carry outside of people attacking me on the road, so for me it wouldn't seem odd at all, especially if I was on my MTB riding back country, to have a gun with me. It would be the same if I were camping, climbing, backpacking as well. Speaking to jpr95s assertion that guns are for "scared little people," I would posit that it is scared little people who perpetuate crime on helpless victims. It was a scared little person who walked into a church in Colorado Springs two years ago and began shooting people while they worshiped - it was a brave off-duty security officer with a CCW who was carrying who bravely squared off with the man, announced her intentions, and gave him one opportunity to lay down his weapon before she approached him openly, and engaged him with return fire. She was hardly a scared little person, but a brave citizen who put her life on the line to save innocents, while the two on-duty security guards hid (as most sane people would).

    Again - I think many of us have different ideas and upbringings that may make this idea seem ridiculous to some. As I also said, some may not even realize that this is legal in most states here, and a discussion that is a viable one to have.

    It should also be noted that when people talk about conceal-carry the operative word is "conceal." There have been comments here which make it sound as though people think we just walk around with six-shooters holstered on our bike shorts, and that's not what the law provides for at all. People carry all around you, all the time, and the reason you don't have a problem with it day to day is because you don't know they're doing so. We can't pull a weapon and point it at someone who threatens us - we go to jail for that. It's not as though someone carrying has the ability to be an ass and pull their gun when they're afraid. This not only gets you in trouble, but can result in a felony which makes it impossible for you to ever legally own a firearm again.
     
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  2. tonyzackery

    tonyzackery Well-Known Member

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    Jason, you are riding your bike (that's what this thread is about - not gun ownership) with your hands on the bars (of course). Someone accosts you unexpectedly or expectedly, how is that gun you have safely stored away (in a bag or holster) going to reduce your chances of being killed if that is the intent of the perpetrator? More than likely, that gun will be taken away from and used against you.
     
  3. jpr95

    jpr95 Active Member

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    Short of a vehicular attack, an attack is not likely to completely disable a rider. The gun would be presumably concealed, so the attacker would not know of its presence until it is withdrawn and pointed. Not to mention, any non-vehicular attack is also likely to be somewhat predictable--in other words, I wouldn't just go whizzing right by some obvious gang-bangers--I'd steer clear of them and see how they react. Part of carrying a gun is being aware of one's surroundings. A criminal that knows his potential victim isn't carrying a gun (because it's illegal in many locales) knows he has an easy victim. That same criminal would be unpleasantly surprised if he accosted a cyclist who subsequently produced a firearm...

    Jason
     
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  4. tonyzackery

    tonyzackery Well-Known Member

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    LOL! You're showing your prejudice/ignorance there. You must live in the suburbs and watch too much television. Yeah, it's only "gang-bangers" that accost cyclists/img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif. Too much supposition/hypothetical theory and no straight answer leads me to believe you know your reply is disingenuous.

    "Any non-vehicular attack is also likely to be predictable". Huh?? What?? Surely you jest. How the heck do you think these criminals get away with their crimes??? That comment is most amusing.

    Do you think criminals give their bicycle riding victims time to retrieve their handgun before robbing/assaulting them? Apparently you do.

    So you've been attacked, but not killed/"completely disabled". Did that gun you're carrying while riding your bike help you in any way to prevent said attack? Oh, you'll want to go and exact some revenge from that attacker, right? Yeah, that's legal behavior in our civilized society./img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif

    You sound pretty paranoid to me. You a survivalist?
     
  5. jpr95

    jpr95 Active Member

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    The gang-banger comment was just an example of how I would stay aware of my surroundings and simply avoid potential threats. Whenever I am in public, I am aware of what is around me, constantly assessing what might pose a threat to me or others around me. It's the mindset of those who care about their own safety and that of others.

    You're right that a gun wouldn't necessarily prevent the START of an attack, but it can end the attack once retrieved.

    Your third line is a straw man argument. I've clearly stated I know I would be likely to survive the initial stages of the attack (knocking me down). You don't really think that an attack would stop there, do you? If so, you're delusional. Vicious, prolonged beatings happen every day. If they don't know I have a gun, they won't know I'm retrieving it until it appears in my hands, ready to fire.

    I'm not paranoid. I just know that there are evil people out there. I'm not one of them, therefore, I will protect myself and others from said evil persons, however I can.

    Criminals get away with their crimes because too large a segment of society has decided to be sheep--leaving all protection and crime prevention in the hands of the woefully inadequate police forces. (In my county of about 170,000 people, there are about 250 police officers total, maybe 60 on duty--that's not a very good ratio). I refuse to be a sheep.

    Again, read "More Guns, Less Crime" by John Lott. He used to be against concealed carry and set out to research the statistics to prove that it was better to outlaw guns. Now he's a strong 2nd Amendment advocate and supporter of the right to keep and bear arms as it applies to individuals.

    Jason, who would rather have a gun and not need it than need a gun and not have it.
     
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  6. KD5NRH

    KD5NRH New Member

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    You mean just like what didn't happen when a guy with an armload of pizzas was ambushed by three robbers?

    http://www.wxyz.com/dpp/news/region/detroit/police:pizza-delivery-man-fights-back-after-being-ambushed,-kills-robber
     
  7. tonyzackery

    tonyzackery Well-Known Member

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    ^^ What's your point? That it's exceedingly rare that individuals/victims turn the tables on the crooks when robbery attempts occur? Yeah, I very much agree with that...Thanks for posting your cherry-picked exception...Was the pizza-guy riding a bike??
     
  8. cankiwi6

    cankiwi6 New Member

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    What an interesting and innovative way for the author of the original question to gather material for his/her Masters thesis in psychology.. What a gold mine. Wish I'd thought of it.

    John B.
     
  9. cankiwi6

    cankiwi6 New Member

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    What an interesting and innovative way for the author of the original question to gather material for his/her Masters thesis in psychology.. What a gold mine. Wish I'd thought of it.

    John B.
     
  10. ilaboometo

    ilaboometo New Member

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    i used to bike in very isolated areas of Montana--attacked by nasty dogs twice--one connected--i used to carry pepper spray--worked but if teh wind is in wrong direction and it gets in your eyes you are blind for 20 minutes--if i had to bike again there i would no doubt carry a 22 revolver and i reccommend it--light and very deadly--anything else might be to heavy and you only have about 3 seconds before you will need it
     
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  11. KD5NRH

    KD5NRH New Member

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    Of course you agree with your made-up conclusion that is in no way supported by the data.

    "Exceedingly rare?" Even the NCVS study in 1993 estimated 108,000 successful defensive gun uses annually in the US. That's the lowest out of 15 independent and peer-reviewed studies conducted between 1976 and 1995.
     
  12. tonyzackery

    tonyzackery Well-Known Member

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    Stay focused, pal. I only humored you with my response to your cherry-picked article.
    The issue on discussion, must I remind you, is cycling while armed, not all your other sundry gun stuff. There are a multitude of other forums where you gun fanatics can revel and beat their chests regarding their personal armament/amories...

    Let me ask again: was the pizza guy riding a bike?
     
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  13. samspade73

    samspade73 New Member

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    It had never occurred to me that someone would ever think about carrying a concealed weapon while riding.

    I've been running for 22 years and cycling for 15 years on streets now in the following places: Southern California (Pomana and Upland), Austin, TX (a very low income area on East Side), El Paso, TX, Portland, OR, Vancouver, WA (run past a methadone clinic with addicts lined up out front for the past 4 years at least once or twice a week, never had one even speak to me) Atlanta, GA, Spokane, WA, Longview, WA (again, both of these very low income part of town with a lot of drug problems), Eugene, OR. During that time on average, I've ran 5 days a week (40 miles a week) and cycled/biked (whether to commute or train) 3-6 times a week (80 miles a week avg.). I run either really early in the AM (4:30-6am or sometimes late at night 10pm) and I've never had anyone threaten me or even try and get close to me or anything other than yelling out the occasional "run forest! run!" or other cliche joke...no surprise, I'm not a big guy either 5'10 150-160lb.

    I've ran on urban park trails at night, I've ran on major roads and secluded bike paths early in the AM. Could someone try and rob and/or kill me? sure. Am I running in inner city Detroit? No.

    My #1 predator while running and cycling, in my experience, has been very avg middle American suburban types (three bike accidents resulting in 1 concussion, 14 stitches, 3 broken ribs, two totaled bikes resulting in total loss of $1500) I've had too many close calls to count, again, people in the minivan leaning down to light a cigarette as they pull out of McDonald's (no hyperbole here). One woman who took me out and gave me a concussion was driving a two year old, loaded BMW, was very affluent, and was trying to juggle a small dog on her lap, a cell phone and find directions....

    Maybe one day one of these avg types will take me out in their minivan, get out, pull over, unholster a gun and finish me off, but until then...I'm 1000 times more concerned with how to make myself seen and respected while training on the roads.

    Also side note: I work in a hospital and we have a weapon free policy unless you're law enforcement and on an almost daily basis someone brings a gun in for their appointment, surgery or even to deliver a baby. When we politely tell them we can secure it in our safe or they can lock it in their trunk they say the same thing "what if...." well, we have armed security for those "what ifs..." but they still want to bring in the guns.
     
  14. look 586

    look 586 New Member

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    Hello, every one I am from GREECE, and living in one of the 7 islands of IONIAN SEA (ISLAND OF KEFALONIA).
    and cycling from the age of 16 until today(I'm 35).
    guns!!!!!!!! Prefer not to cycle or to move to another safer area
     
  15. nothingman81

    nothingman81 New Member

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  16. BeginnerCycling

    BeginnerCycling New Member

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    While I have never carried while cycling, I wouldn't hesitate to do so if I thought the situation warranted it. We have a constitutional right in the United States to carry, and some people live in places or have situations where they just can't avoid dangerous conditions. I used to be in law enforcement, and most of the time the damage was already done before we arrived -- so you can't just plan to rely on the police (they are over-worked, under-staffed, and can't be everywhere at once).

    Once every 15 seconds an American lawfully uses a firearm in self defense. That's much more often than the occurrence of bicycle accidents with head impacts. So, if it's not paranoia to wear a helmet, it's definitely not paranoia to carry concealed -- especially if your individual situation calls for it.
     
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  17. samspade73

    samspade73 New Member

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    Where are you getting your statistics from that "Once every 15 seconds an American lawfully uses a firearm in self defense..."?

    According to the peer reviewed American Journal of Public Health the "Between 1987 and 1990 there were an estimated 258,460 incidents of firearm defense, an annual mean of 64,615." That would be one occurrence ever 8.13 mins (31,536,000 seconds in a year). See citations below. For your stats to be true you would have to be sampling a time in US history when there were 32 times more lawful gun use of self preservation than in the years of 1987 and 1990. Perhaps you're pulling a year from the 19th century or a sampling of inner city Detroit and applying that ratio to the rest of the US?

    In 2009 there were 51,000 accidents involving bodily injury reported where the victim was riding a bike down significantly from previous years (this would be one occurrence every 9 mins. This only represents a portion of such accidents as the majority aren't reported by law enforcement nor tracked and compiled across the board in all emergency medicine settings/primary care provides, (I know of my three accidents, two of which I required medical assistance no police report was filed). True, some cases of lawful self-preservation involving a gun might go unreported, but not very many. It would be a little hard to shoot someone in self defense and not fill out a police report.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7998641

    http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811386.pdf

    So, even if you assume that 100% of both gun accidents AND bike accidents were reported (beyond unlikely in the case of bike accidents) they are almost at a 1:1 ratio. How many Americans ride bikes on a regular basis? A few studies I read say that 50-60 million Americans ride a bike once a year, or roughly 20% of the US population (and this is tossing in people who rent a beach cruiser and ride 2 miles down the boardwalk). How many Americans are susceptible to crime? (100%, especially according to your own arguments although some higher risk than others). So, we have roughly 1/5th the total number of cyclists suffering bodily harm, suffering roughly the same number of incidents of needing a gun to lawfully protect themselves. Also, if you think head injuries are the only source of serious injuries involving cyclist you're mistaken.

    If you want to carry a gun everywhere you go (and while grinding it out up a 15% grade), it is absolutely your right, but don't create statistics or get your impressions of crime by watching the local news. If you have statistics from a peer reviewed journal of gov't study, etc. that back up your every 15 seconds, please share them.

    More Americans suffer heart attacks while exercising than need a firearm to lawfully protect themselves AND suffer bike accidents. Should I carry a defibrillator with me on grueling group rides? I won't apply my personal experience to everyone in America, but again, I've suffered grave bodily harm and suffered loss of property numerous times by a car hitting me while riding but I've never even had anyone throw a blow or rob me. If I lived in one of a few high crime areas of the US, this experience might be flipped (several times of being assaulted and robbed but zero bike accidents).
     
  18. tonyzackery

    tonyzackery Well-Known Member

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    ^^^Nice post.

    Oh darn, someone's just brought those damn irritating facts to a nice, happy, cheerful fictional-story party...hate it when that happens - kinda spoils the mood...

    Chicken Little's of the world will now unite with piles and mounds of statistics illustrating that the sky is, in fact, falling...better get prepared now with your underground bomb shelter - and ya' better have your firearm down there too; just never know when you're going to be accosted...
     
  19. BeginnerCycling

    BeginnerCycling New Member

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    There was a study by Dr. Gary Kleck (Professor in the School of Criminology and Criminal Justice at Florida State University) that estimated 2.5 million defensive uses per year (which is approximately once every 15 seconds). The Department of Justice also did a study, using a smaller statistical sample, that estimated 1.5 million defensive uses per year. (see http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/165476.pdf - especially chart on bottom of page 8). Even if you prefer the lower number, that's still more than 30 times the reported number of bicycle accidents.
     
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  20. BeginnerCycling

    BeginnerCycling New Member

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    Perhaps you should have let me reply before starting a (premature & unwarranted) victory dance . . . just sayin' /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

    Edit: By the way, I never understand the vitriol some people express toward law-abiding citizens that choose to exercise their 2nd Amendment rights? Does it threaten your illusion that the world is a place where nothing bad happens without reason? As I said before, I have yet to carry while cycling -- but I wouldn't hesitate to if I lived in an area or had circumstances (known dangerous enemies, etc.) that warranted a precaution. I would not begrudge other law-abiding citizens the right to make that judgment for their own safety either.
     
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