How many of you carry a gun as part of your cycling equipment?

[lokstah]

This topic has historical merit.

Fantastic. Then find the "History" thread, and take it there.

The content of this thread completely confirms that this is a debate about politics, ethics, and society. It should be taken to the Bike Cafe, or better, the Bloody Soapbox.

 

[meehs]

Fantastic. Then find the "History" thread, and take it there.

The content of this thread completely confirms that this is a debate about politics, ethics, and society. It should be taken to the Bike Cafe, or better, the Bloody Soapbox.

You're right Lokstah. And I'm just perpetuating the thread by continuing to post to it. I apologize. I'm done now!

 

[mickhall-uk]

This is my first post to these forums,although ive been reading them for quite a while,and i couldnt help noticing the polarisation of opinion.

If the OP feels the need to carry a piece whilst out cycling then he obviously feels that it is a valid item of bike kit, whether you agree or not.....

I live in the post industrial wasteland that is northwest england, which ,with all due respect to your American cities, is hell to live in, and heaven to ride out of.
Within a 25 mile radius of my house I have the cities of Manchester( location of velodrome),Liverpool , Bolton, Blackburn,Burnley, Oldham,Rochdale, Preston,
each of which has its own particular brand of scum,drug dealers,muggers and general A-holes.
In 20 years of training and touring I have never once thought "damn,I wish i had a gun to get me out of this one".
On the whole, folk tend to view me as a crazed maniac myself for wearing tight lycra on a skinny bike and avoid me like the plague (apart from chicks,who love the shaved legs....)
I find that a decent frame fit pump in the right hands is weapon enough for the mean streets, and i reckon most europeans would feel the same way.

Americans, dont take this as a personal insult ,but i feel that its a sad reflection of your society that this thread came to be in the first place.....

 

[Weisse Luft]

But the "Velo-Dog" revolvers were first developed in of all places, France! It wasn't until after the WWI that Europeans thought of guns as the root of all evil in martial terms.

 

[menglish6]

Now... to put to bed your second example; a BG with a knife.

I can tell you right now that I can draw and place 6 shots in a 3" circle in less than 3 seconds (and MANY people can do it MUCH QUICKER THAN I CAN) from 25" away.

Your BG with the knife would be deader than a doornail... immediately, and with no second thoughts.

You do NOT (and I'll repeat this for effect).. You do NOT bring a knife to a gunfight.

Anyone who carries should train. Anyone who trains WILL be able to stop a knife attack, depending on distances, they may get cut... but the attacker will be stopped.

JW

I don't know how many knife wielding attackers you've had to actually shoot, but it turns out that fbi and police statistics say that about 1 in 6 shots fired during an real altercation actually hit their target (that's for trained police and fbi agents). Aparently the stress and variability of the situation makes their ability to aim and fire really quite poor.

However, there seems to be a consensus among practitioners and researchers alike that police marksmanship in real-life (scene of a crime) situations is less than desirable, something along the order of one hit for every six shots (Morrison 2002).

FBI statistics reflecting the accuracy of policemen shooting at a target at about 12 feet. Apparently, owing to stress police officers only hit their target every one in four or five shots;


just thought i should be pointed out that there are so many variables and factors in real life that you really can't be gauranteed of anything. you might get the guy, but poice and fbi statistics say there's a good chance you'll miss him (her?).

 

[menglish6]

Awesome isn't it?

I'm wondering now if I have my .45acp strapped to my hip in open view (legal here in Arizona) how many cars will give me LOTS of room.

JW

Ok, I have to say, this actually seems like a pretty good idea. I'd bet if cars could easily see you were carrying a gun you'd never have to think twice about them running you off the road.

 

[menglish6]

As far as militia goes...you have a poor grasp of the 2nd Amendment so you probably know nothing of Title 10, Section 311 of the United States Code.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/ts_search.pl?title=10&sec=311

I think my experience of safely hunting from horseback (and on my mountain bike, using a .22 pistol on hares and rabbits) is proof enough I can safely handle a firearm. The fact more people have been killed by Ted Kennedy's car than from all my firearms combined is proof the danger can be managed to non-existent levels, criminals excluded.

I know this isn't the place, but I personally think that anyone who thinks the second amendment (and it's associated sections) means that any old citizen is supposed to be able to carry a gun around for self-protection has very little grasp of the historical context that the amendment was written in. Nearly all of our newly founded countries protection was provided by the national guard, which was not a standing army, but rather one that was pulled together as needed from the citizens, they even provided their own weapons. Ironically not that far different than the National Guard is turning out to be today.

 

[Rich G]

O.K., this is a hell of a place to introduce myself....
As was stated before, much like a fire extinguisher it is much better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. As to the knife from 21 feet, it called the "Tuller drill". Google it if your interested.
Joe West and others who under stand situational awareness(sp), why bother? there are wolves, there are sheep and then us ol' sheep dogs

Respectfully,

 

[Joe West]

I practice WAY more than the police and FBI. I'm not surprised that they can't hit the side of a barn.
The police in America are under paid and under trained high school graduates. They have a rough job and very little time to spend on a shooting range. Their range requirements are minimal at best.

Quoting any statistic from the police and/or FBI does nothing more than show how woefully inadequate their training is.
In addition to throwing lead downrange... I practice on a police simulator... a large screen and hundreds of situation scenarios where every shot I fire is recorded (laser glock) for accuracy and inaccuracy. In addition, if I respond incorrectly to the situation (shoot when I should not shoot, hit an innocent bystander, fail to issue commands properly, failure to move) I will fail the situation.
I do the situation simulator a couple of times a year and the range at least once per week, sometimes more.
If the police are lucky, they get to the range once per month or a couple of times per year (here in Arizona anyway). Of course, there are officers who are the exception... and they are just as likely as I am to hit the target.

JW

I don't know how many knife wielding attackers you've had to actually shoot, but it turns out that fbi and police statistics say that about 1 in 6 shots fired during an real altercation actually hit their target (that's for trained police and fbi agents). Aparently the stress and variability of the situation makes their ability to aim and fire really quite poor.

However, there seems to be a consensus among practitioners and researchers alike that police marksmanship in real-life (scene of a crime) situations is less than desirable, something along the order of one hit for every six shots (Morrison 2002).

FBI statistics reflecting the accuracy of policemen shooting at a target at about 12 feet. Apparently, owing to stress police officers only hit their target every one in four or five shots;


just thought i should be pointed out that there are so many variables and factors in real life that you really can't be gauranteed of anything. you might get the guy, but poice and fbi statistics say there's a good chance you'll miss him (her?).

 

[ritcho]

[snip interesting commentary]

JW

Nice thread... makes you think. We're not allowed to carry guns around here (Australia) and I doubt that many people feel like they need to. But this isn't the US, which has loads of people that are allowed to carry and many people do feel the need (or at least want).

I'd welcome you to come and ride over here sometime, but you'll have to leave the weapon at home.

Ritch.

PS. It isn't the 2nd amendment that makes America great, it's the 1st.

 

[steve_wmn]

Nice thread... makes you think. We're not allowed to carry guns around here (Australia) and I doubt that many people feel like they need to. But this isn't the US, which has loads of people that are allowed to carry and many people do feel the need (or at least want).

Here in the US gun ownership has deep seated cultural roots passed on from generation to generation, sort of like religion. Folks that own guns like Joe feel an honest need for them and will defend their right to keep them vociferously. But there are also folks that live in the same communities and take the same risks each day, but they've never owned a gun and have never perceived a need for a gun.

 

[wadoflove]

I practice WAY more than the police and FBI. I'm not surprised that they can't hit the side of a barn.
The police in America are under paid and under trained high school graduates. They have a rough job and very little time to spend on a shooting range. Their range requirements are minimal at best.

Quoting any statistic from the police and/or FBI does nothing more than show how woefully inadequate their training is.
In addition to throwing lead downrange... I practice on a police simulator... a large screen and hundreds of situation scenarios where every shot I fire is recorded (laser glock) for accuracy and inaccuracy. In addition, if I respond incorrectly to the situation (shoot when I should not shoot, hit an innocent bystander, fail to issue commands properly, failure to move) I will fail the situation.
I do the situation simulator a couple of times a year and the range at least once per week, sometimes more.
If the police are lucky, they get to the range once per month or a couple of times per year (here in Arizona anyway). Of course, there are officers who are the exception... and they are just as likely as I am to hit the target.

JW

OK so your Clint Eastwood, that don't impress me much... you're still a nut job if you carry a gun with you anywhere and especially when riding I hope you never crash and land on your gun. I landed on my keys once and had a pretty good puncture wound.

 

[531Aussie]

Nice thread... makes you think. We're not allowed to carry guns around here (Australia) and I doubt that many people feel like they need to. But this isn't the US, which has loads of people that are allowed to carry and many people do feel the need (or at least want).

I'd welcome you to come and ride over here sometime, but you'll have to leave the weapon at home.
.

I really don't think they understand how AMAZING this all sounds to us "down here"

 

[Joe West]

Nut Job?


Come on now... where's the love wadoflove?

I see you are from France, as is my Father... so I will forgive you

JW

OK so your Clint Eastwood, that don't impress me much... you're still a nut job if you carry a gun with you anywhere and especially when riding I hope you never crash and land on your gun. I landed on my keys once and had a pretty good puncture wound.

 

[Joe West]

Ah... but it is the second which guarantees the first and all the rest.

PS. It isn't the 2nd amendment that makes America great, it's the 1st.

 

[tafi]

Very old saying: The way to get shot is to carry a gun.
If people didn't carry guns no one would need one.

 

[Weisse Luft]

I practice WAY more than the police and FBI. I'm not surprised that they can't hit the side of a barn.
The police in America are under paid and under trained high school graduates. They have a rough job and very little time to spend on a shooting range. Their range requirements are minimal at best.

Quoting any statistic from the police and/or FBI does nothing more than show how woefully inadequate their training is.
In addition to throwing lead downrange... I practice on a police simulator... a large screen and hundreds of situation scenarios where every shot I fire is recorded (laser glock) for accuracy and inaccuracy. In addition, if I respond incorrectly to the situation (shoot when I should not shoot, hit an innocent bystander, fail to issue commands properly, failure to move) I will fail the situation.
I do the situation simulator a couple of times a year and the range at least once per week, sometimes more.
If the police are lucky, they get to the range once per month or a couple of times per year (here in Arizona anyway). Of course, there are officers who are the exception... and they are just as likely as I am to hit the target.

JW

So true. I went hunting with a local LEO once. We took our choice of pistols, me and my Para-Ord P14, him with his 92 Berretta. The game was squirrel. Limb chicken. Bag limit was 6 in this county and I was done by 9:00, he never got one. Of course squirrels don't shoot back but they are a more difficult target than your average urban gorilla.

 

[Weisse Luft]

Very old saying: The way to get shot is to carry a gun.
If people didn't carry guns no one would need one.

False.

God created man.
Sam Colt made men equal.

If you can find a way to rid society of anti-social types, you might have a case of a disarmed society. But because there will ALWAYS be misanthropes preying on those with something of value, one must never seek to "even the field" by disarming those who abide by the social contract and carry a firearm.

 

[alienator]

I'm sorry for every responding to this thread. As has been mentioned, this is not the appropriate forum, and I should have had that in mind before I responded. There were other forums listed that where more appropriate. Some are still preaching loudly, from both sides, but I don't think the congregation cares to listen, nor should they have to, given the fact that there are forums more appropriate for the "I know more than you's" and the "you don't know what your talking abouts."

So how about taking the **** waving--whether it's liberal or conservative--elsewhere.

 

[ProfTournesol]

Just wondering how many of you carry a gun as part of your cycling equipment? Here in Arizona we can legally carry open and concealed (concealed with permit).

For long distance touring and bicycle camping... I think I'd feel safer carrying my .45 semi-auto pistol (concealed so it doesn't freak people out).

Anyone else carry while biking?

JW

I carry weapons of Mass Destruction on my bike - hidden so well that even the White House can't find them. Of course they exist though, or at least I would like to have them so that's the same thing. Gotta go...there are troops breaking down my front door now.....ugggh