How Mountain Bikers "Enjoy Nature"



Status
Not open for further replies.
"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 08:46:43 -0800, "Jeff Strickland" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
> .> .> Impossible, since mountain bikers travel SEVERAL TIMES AS FAR AND AS
FAST
> .as .> hikers. Thus, they destroy SEVERAL TIMES as much habitat. .> .This is false, and a lie. The
> term "several times" is a ratio of damage
over
> .distance travelled. While a bike may travel a greater distance, the
damage
> .done (and the issue that any damage that is even worth discussing has not .been settled) also
> covers a greater distance, in this case the ratio of
the
> .damage done by a bike tire could possibly be less than the damage done by
a
> .boot. If a boot goes two miles on soft dirt, it can do more damage than a .bike tire that goes 5
> miles on hard dirt. If a boot goes two miles on any .dirt, and a bike goes the same distance on
> the same dirt, the odds favor
the
> .truth that both will do the same damage.
>
> Mountain bikers' own research claims that they do the same damage as a
hiker,
> PER MILE. Since mountain bikers travel SEVERAL TIMES AS FAR AND AS FAST as hikers, they therefore
> do SEVERAL TIMES AS MUCH DAMAGE. It doesn't take a
rocket
> scientist to see this. DUH! As much as you squirm and lie, you can't
change that
> basic truth. But, hey, thanks for demonstrating, once again, just how
DISHONEST
> mountain bikers are!
>

I repeat, your entire premise is flawwed.

If (and this is a huge IF) the entire trail that is contained within a square mile is completely and
utterly destroyed, then the max damage to that square mile is 0.0009% of the space. It would take a
thousand such trails in the same square mile to be totally destroyed to have an impact on 1% of the
space. Since this is impossible, then you will never succeed in saving even 1% of the environment.
You really need a goal that will do more good ...
 
Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote in message
> Mountain bikers "enjoy nature" the way hunters "enjoy nature".

I sure hope that's so. Most hunters I know in the countryside put a hell of a lot more into the
environment than they take out. Sure, there's the ocassional jackass here and there, but the same
can be said about any group of people. Tell me something, Mikey, how many acres you got going on
there? My hunting friends, up at the local club, combined, probably total about ~65K acres of
maintained land - that's just family farm and hunting land, overall. I guess that probably pales
next to your contributions - although I didn't see much at your website, apart from a bunch of
self-righteous proselytizing about how evil mountain bikes are (I don't have a bike, but I couldn't
help but notice your comment about hunters).

In fact, you state you've spent eight years fighting to protect the environment - but I didn't see
much on your website about your "preserve" you were trying to fund. Lessee... eight years, at say,
what, say 100K a year (any PhD oughta be able to pull that down, if I can do it writing Java code),
well, that comes out to about 800K (before taxes) let's take out Uncle Sam's bit, approx 1/2 (I
know, I'm exaggerating, but I don't want to get called out for saying he has more money than he
does), that leaves you with about 400K, with which, if you just lived off the earth (after all, you
make a crack about nobody understanding you if they owned a car or bicyle, so we can assume you
really live your beliefs) you only need a few thousand a year, so... how many acres did you buy Doc?
I'm guessing (at about $500 an acre out here, for **** land, and $1500 for decent terrain) about
200K acres. So, where do your fans send donations to maintain this incredible preserve?

Oh, what's that? You spent all the money on Lattes, monthly passes for the stinky-ass train or
whatever you ride to work in CA, and dial-up fees to Pacific Bell? There IS no ranch? Ah geee... and
I thought you'd at least be setting aside as much as my hunting friends do.

> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
> help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

Nah. I would, but the local farming guys, along with the NRA hunter safety folks up here are already
maintaining some beautiful lands that are just a-poppin' with happy little critters who, on
occassion, also make very tasty sausage. Oh yeah, and you can drive an F350 SD through there, full
throttle, every deer season from now until the end of the earth, and hardly make a dent in the
place; it usually makes a dent in you, when you have to walk back and get someone to drive out with
an axle... that's for sure :)

And all you mountain bikers, don't you worry, when eco-freaks like Mikey here finally managed to
restrict y'all from the last inch of their trash-infested mountains and syringe-covered beaches, us
rednecks have got a few hundred thousand acres set aside for ya down south. Come on by when the CA
stink finally gets to ya - just stop at the farmhouse and ask permission, and for God's Sake, if
you're gonna try to jump over the cows on your bikes, STAY AWAY FROM THAT BULL!
 
[email protected] (backpacker) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > Mountain bikers "enjoy nature" the way hunters "enjoy nature".

> And all you mountain bikers, don't you worry, when eco-freaks like Mikey here finally managed to
> restrict y'all from the last inch of their trash-infested mountains and syringe-covered beaches,
> us rednecks have got a few hundred thousand acres set aside for ya down south. Come on by when the
> CA stink finally gets to ya - just stop at the farmhouse and ask permission, and for God's Sake,
> if you're gonna try to jump over the cows on your bikes, STAY AWAY FROM THAT BULL!

Why don't you go now and save us the time? Terri Alvillar
http://homepage.mac.com/terrialvillar/mountainbikedamage/PhotoAlbum11.html
 
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> [email protected] (backpacker) wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
> > Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > Mountain bikers "enjoy nature" the way hunters "enjoy nature".
>
> > And all you mountain bikers, don't you worry, when eco-freaks like Mikey here finally managed to
> > restrict y'all from the last inch of their trash-infested mountains and syringe-covered beaches,
> > us rednecks have got a few hundred thousand acres set aside for ya down south. Come on by when
> > the CA stink finally gets to ya - just stop at the farmhouse and ask permission, and for God's
> > Sake, if you're gonna try to jump over the cows on your bikes, STAY AWAY FROM THAT BULL!
>
>
> Why don't you go now and save us the time? Terri Alvillar
> http://homepage.mac.com/terrialvillar/mountainbikedamage/PhotoAlbum11.html
>

yes save us time so we may gaze upon the sycophantic mess that is your ME-TOO website, perhaps the
most ineffective page on the net.

Why not put some nekkid images as well, it's achieving nothing apart from making you look like
a try hard.
 
My hunting friends, up at the local
> club, combined, probably total about ~65K acres of maintained land - that's just family farm and
> hunting land, overall. I guess that probably pales next to your contributions -

Don't sell yourself short. You have about 64,999.5 more acres than Mike has.
 
[email protected] (backpacker) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
>> Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote in message

>how many acres did you buy Doc? I'm guessing (at about $500 an acre out here, for **** land, and
>$1500 for decent terrain) about 200K acres. So, where do your fans send donations to maintain this
>incredible preserve?

Oops! Sprinkled too many Ks around there. heh. That should have been about two hundred acres...

:)
 
On 24 Feb 2003 21:31:54 -0800, [email protected] (backpacker) wrote:

.Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote in message .> Mountain bikers "enjoy nature" the way
hunters "enjoy nature". . .I sure hope that's so. Most hunters I know in the countryside put a .hell
of a lot more into the environment than they take out.

Yeah! Exhaust fumes, bullets, garbage, pure ugliness, etc.

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
"Jeff Strickland" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> My hunting friends, up at the local
> > club, combined, probably total about ~65K acres of maintained land - that's just family farm and
> > hunting land, overall. I guess that probably pales next to your contributions -
>
>
> Don't sell yourself short. You have about 64,999.5 more acres than Mike has.

Actually, I feel kind of silly - I made fun of him for not having a huge bunch of land, but
realistically, he probably can't afford it (not making fun of him, but it's easy to forget how
expensive land is these days - most of my friends and family have land from way back, although it is
still very cheap in their neck of the woods so to speak.). However, I get a little cross when I hear
these city "eco" types talking about us ignorant country hunter types. Sure, there's a lot of really
decent eco types who really mean well, and they'd be welcome on my land any day of the week, but a
lot of these guys (and girls) are just self-important kooks who don't like anybody that doesn't feel
the same way they do about the outdoors - they get bent out of shape about us hunting (on our own
land usually...), but usually the local *hunting* club is the same one dumping a few hundred
pheasants out into the meadows on a saturday to make sure there's plenty around for hunting next
season, or making sure the drainage is going right so those woodland areas stay full of tasty
whitetails. You know what too? I've been hunting for years, and the woods seem to be doing better
every time I set foot in 'em (at least that's the way it is around here).

I really meant that about the F350, too. You can tear around out here forever in your favorite
truck, and the only thing you're going to end up making is a nice trail for the deer. Funniest thing
is, the deer seem to like the "roads" here just as much as the trucks do. You'd have to get a whole
lotta guys, pedaling their asses off for a long time, in order to do the same damage one little
truck ride would do, I guess, and the woods here seem to be none the worse for it. Now sure, you
can't let everybody do it, but that's why you set aside land for doing that sort of thing on. In CA,
they have a big dune-buggy place, I saw one time, where everybody can zip around in their 4x4s.
That's different from a "wilderness" area, of which we have a lot where I am, where nothing is
allowed. For the most part, the "wilderness" areas stay pretty nice, and the forest areas,
realistically, are very nice too, 'cept they have a few roads through them. I think I heard someone
say, one time, that only about ten percent of the United States is actually "developed" land. I can
believe that - you ever flown over Texas? West Texas? There's nobody there for a thousand miles just
about. Nothing but jackrabbits, coyotes, and other crazy little bastards all running around and
enjoying the afternoon. I don't believe a few mountain bikes are going to wreck any place, except
maybe a public place that some misguided souls feel "belongs" to them.

I think the more entertaining conversation would be between the eco-freak living in the loft in San
Fran and a Native American living in a trailer park out here on the res'. The eco-freak could tell
the indian how sad it is that the mountain bikers are destroying the land, then he could invite the
indian up to his loft, and show him his collection of authentic kachina dolls to show the indian how
the eco-freak has truly "touched the earth". That conjures up a sad and ironic picture, doesn't it?
 
backpacker wrote:

>
>
> I think the more entertaining conversation would be between the eco-freak living in the loft in
> San Fran and a Native American living in a trailer park out here on the res'. The eco-freak could
> tell the indian how sad it is that the mountain bikers are destroying the land, then he could
> invite the indian up to his loft, and show him his collection of authentic kachina dolls to show
> the indian how the eco-freak has truly "touched the earth". That conjures up a sad and ironic
> picture, doesn't it?

This IS so ironic. And so sad. There is a wonderful book titled "Touch The Earth;" I suggest anyone
who "loves" the earth read it. Also "Hanta Yo" by Ruth Bebee Hill. And "Black Elk Speaks" by Black
Elk. And "Arctic Dreams" by Barry Lopez. "Encounters with the Archdruid" by John McPhee. Anything by
Wendell Berry.......

Some of us feak out over a single bicycle track while ignoring the pave-we-must economy with its
cookie-cutter 'home developments' of ticky-tacky and Big Box Mega Marts right next to whole strips
of Plastic Burger Empire that are flanked by smallish health-advice waiting rooms where some timid
souls think we don't need to breed/consume ourselves into oblivion.............

Walt Kelly, via his winsome Okefenokee characters, wrote that "We have met the enemy and he is us."

It's worse than that. We are "developing" our own destruction. Pun very much intended.

Yours in the north Maine woods, Pete Hilton aka The Ent

--
There's such a thing as too much point on a pencil.
H. Allen Smith
 
Mike Vandeman wrote:

> On 24 Feb 2003 21:31:54 -0800, [email protected] (backpacker) wrote:
>
> .Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote in message .> Mountain bikers "enjoy nature" the way
> hunters "enjoy nature". . .I sure hope that's so. Most hunters I know in the countryside put a
> .hell of a lot more into the environment than they take out.
>
> Yeah! Exhaust fumes, bullets, garbage, pure ugliness, etc.
>

You seem to do all that quite well, both figuratively and literally, just sitting at a keyboard.

Yours in the north Maine woods, Pete Hilton aka The Ent

--
There's such a thing as too much point on a pencil.
H. Allen Smith
 
You are SO out of touch with reality ...

"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:eek:[email protected]...
> On 24 Feb 2003 21:31:54 -0800, [email protected] (backpacker)
wrote:
>
> .Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote in message .> Mountain bikers "enjoy nature" the way
> hunters "enjoy nature". . .I sure hope that's so. Most hunters I know in the countryside put a
> .hell of a lot more into the environment than they take out.
>
> Yeah! Exhaust fumes, bullets, garbage, pure ugliness, etc.
>
> ===
> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
> help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
>
> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
On Tue, 25 Feb 2003 22:39:35 -0500, PeterH <[email protected]> wrote:

.backpacker wrote: . .> .> .> I think the more entertaining conversation would be between the .>
eco-freak living in the loft in San Fran and a Native American living .> in a trailer park out here
on the res'. The eco-freak could tell the .> indian how sad it is that the mountain bikers are
destroying the land, .> then he could invite the indian up to his loft, and show him his .>
collection of authentic kachina dolls to show the indian how the .> eco-freak has truly "touched the
earth". That conjures up a sad and .> ironic picture, doesn't it? . .This IS so ironic. And so sad.
There is a wonderful book titled "Touch The Earth;" I suggest anyone .who "loves" the earth read it.
Also "Hanta Yo" by Ruth Bebee Hill. And "Black Elk Speaks" by Black .Elk.

In which he describes cutting down a "sacred tree" so they could use it in a ceremony. So much for
Native American concern for the environment! Sounds like mountain bikers destroying wildlife habitat
while "enjoying" it.

And "Arctic Dreams" by Barry Lopez. "Encounters with the Archdruid" by John McPhee. Anything .by
Wendell Berry....... . .Some of us feak out over a single bicycle track while ignoring the
pave-we-must economy with its .cookie-cutter 'home developments' of ticky-tacky and Big Box Mega
Marts right next to whole strips .of Plastic Burger Empire that are flanked by smallish
health-advice waiting rooms where some timid .souls think we don't need to breed/consume ourselves
into oblivion............. . .Walt Kelly, via his winsome Okefenokee characters, wrote that "We
have met the enemy and he is us." . .It's worse than that. We are "developing" our own destruction.
Pun very much intended. . .Yours in the north Maine woods, .Pete Hilton aka The Ent

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
On Tue, 25 Feb 2003 22:39:35 -0500, PeterH <[email protected]> wrote:

.backpacker wrote: . .> .> .> I think the more entertaining conversation would be between the .>
eco-freak living in the loft in San Fran and a Native American living .> in a trailer park out here
on the res'. The eco-freak could tell the .> indian how sad it is that the mountain bikers are
destroying the land, .> then he could invite the indian up to his loft, and show him his .>
collection of authentic kachina dolls to show the indian how the .> eco-freak has truly "touched the
earth". That conjures up a sad and .> ironic picture, doesn't it? . .This IS so ironic. And so sad.
There is a wonderful book titled "Touch The Earth;" I suggest anyone .who "loves" the earth read it.
Also "Hanta Yo" by Ruth Bebee Hill. And "Black Elk Speaks" by Black .Elk.

In which he describes cutting down a "sacred tree" so they could use it in a ceremony. So much for
Native American concern for the environment! Sounds like mountain bikers destroying wildlife habitat
while "enjoying" it.

And "Arctic Dreams" by Barry Lopez. "Encounters with the Archdruid" by John McPhee. Anything .by
Wendell Berry....... . .Some of us feak out over a single bicycle track while ignoring the
pave-we-must economy with its .cookie-cutter 'home developments' of ticky-tacky and Big Box Mega
Marts right next to whole strips .of Plastic Burger Empire that are flanked by smallish
health-advice waiting rooms where some timid .souls think we don't need to breed/consume ourselves
into oblivion............. . .Walt Kelly, via his winsome Okefenokee characters, wrote that "We
have met the enemy and he is us." . .It's worse than that. We are "developing" our own destruction.
Pun very much intended. . .Yours in the north Maine woods, .Pete Hilton aka The Ent

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
Mike Vandeman wrote:

> "Black Elk Speaks" by Black .Elk.
>
>In which he describes cutting down a "sacred tree" so they could use it in a ceremony. So much for
>Native American concern for the environment! Sounds like mountain bikers destroying wildlife
>habitat while "enjoying" it.
>
>
>
The ceremony you cite requires one tree. How about the millions of 'sacred' trees that are cut down
as a pagan symbol of fertility every Yuletide?

This apple & oranges statement is so intellectually dishonest that you posted it twice.

Pete H

--
There's such a thing as too much point on a pencil.
H. Allen Smith
 
On Sun, 02 Mar 2003 18:14:11 -0500, PeterH <[email protected]> wrote:

.Mike Vandeman wrote: . .> "Black Elk Speaks" by Black .>.Elk. .> .>In which he describes cutting
down a "sacred tree" so they could use it in a .>ceremony. So much for Native American concern for
the environment! Sounds like .>mountain bikers destroying wildlife habitat while "enjoying" it. .>
.> .> .The ceremony you cite requires one tree. How about the millions of .'sacred' trees that are
cut down as a pagan symbol of fertility every .Yuletide? . .This apple & oranges statement is so
intellectually dishonest that you .posted it twice.

Where's the dishonesty??? My Christmas tree is an embroidered piece of cloth about 8" square.

Or are you referring to your SPAMMING me?

.Pete H

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
How did you make the leaop from cutting of a sacred tree to lacking concern for the environment? You
are SO out of touch with reality.
 
Mike Vandeman wrote:

>.>In which he describes cutting down a "sacred tree" so they could use it in a .>ceremony. So much
>for Native American concern for the environment! Sounds like .>mountain bikers destroying wildlife
>habitat while "enjoying" it. .> .> .> .The ceremony you cite requires one tree. How about the
>millions of .'sacred' trees that are cut down as a pagan symbol of fertility every .Yuletide? .
>.This apple & oranges statement is so intellectually dishonest that you .posted it twice.
>
>Where's the dishonesty??? My Christmas tree is an embroidered piece of cloth about 8" square.
>
>Or are you referring to your SPAMMING me?
>
>
>
You post these blatherings which do not stand up to the most cursory examination; if you are not
prepared for responses, keep silent.

Pete H

--
The only way to discover the limits of the possible is to go beyond them. Arthur C. Clarke
 
On Mon, 3 Mar 2003 13:57:42 -0800, "Jeff Strickland" <[email protected]> wrote:

.How did you make the leaop from cutting of a sacred tree to lacking concern .for the environment?
You are SO out of touch with reality.

What a pain, to have to explain the obvious to the mentally challenged. How can a tree be "sacred",
and yet be cut down??????????????????????????????????? DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
On Tue, 04 Mar 2003 17:48:39 -0500, PeterH <[email protected]> wrote:

.Mike Vandeman wrote: . .>.>In which he describes cutting down a "sacred tree" so they could use it
in a .>.>ceremony. So much for Native American concern for the environment! Sounds like .>.>mountain
bikers destroying wildlife habitat while "enjoying" it. .>.> .>.> .>.> .>.The ceremony you cite
requires one tree. How about the millions of .>.'sacred' trees that are cut down as a pagan symbol
of fertility every .>.Yuletide? .>. .>.This apple & oranges statement is so intellectually dishonest
that you .>.posted it twice. .> .>Where's the dishonesty??? My Christmas tree is an embroidered
piece of cloth .>about 8" square. .> .>Or are you referring to your SPAMMING me? .> .> .> .You post
these blatherings which do not stand up to the most cursory .examination; if you are not prepared
for responses, keep silent.

So are you DENYING SPAMMING me? Why are mountain bikers soooooooo dishonest?

.Pete H

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
Easy. Not being a Native American, let me try to explain the obvious.

A tribe, fictitious or real (we are talking about a story in a book), designates a tree to be sacred
for whatever reason they like. They feed and nurture this tree for generations. They go to the tree
to pray, to sing, whatever. After a time, the tribe goes through some horrific ordeal, and they cut
the tree down and use it as a sacrifice to the gods. This tree means a lot to the tribe, and they
might feel that it is the only thing that they can sacrifice to the gods to cure whatever horrific
thing is that has happened. Sort of like the sacrificial virgin ...

If you went in and cut the tree down, the tribe would be understandably ******, and would probably
sacrifice you to the gods. But, they alone can make the determination that it is time to cut the
tree down.

How can a man with a Ph.D. in psychology, or anything else for that matter, not understand the
concept of sacrifice? You should be ashamed that a high school education has to explain such
elementary concepts to you.

"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 3 Mar 2003 13:57:42 -0800, "Jeff Strickland" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
> .How did you make the leaop from cutting of a sacred tree to lacking
concern
> .for the environment? You are SO out of touch with reality.
>
> What a pain, to have to explain the obvious to the mentally challenged.
How can
> a tree be "sacred", and yet be cut down???????????????????????????????????
> DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> ===
> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
> help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
>
> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

M
More Evidence that Mountain Bikers Aren't Out to Enjoy Nature
Replies
0
Views
371
Mountain Bikes
Mike Vandeman
M
M
PROOF that Mountain Bikers Aren't Out to "Enjoy Nature"
Replies
24
Views
1K
Mountain Bikes
Mike Vandeman
M
M
Why Is the Supply of IDIOT Mountain Bikers ENDLESS???
Replies
1
Views
2K
Mountain Bikes
Bill Z.
B
M
Why Is the Supply of IDIOT Mountain Bikers ENDLESS???
Replies
37
Views
4K
Mountain Bikes
Mike Vandeman
M
M
Re: What NO Mountain Bikers Are Willing to Admit
Replies
30
Views
3K
Mountain Bikes
[email protected]
M
Top Bottom Back