How much recovery?

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Raptor, Jun 9, 2003.

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  1. Raptor

    Raptor Guest

    I turn 40 this year and am experiencing the old man syndrome. It takes longer to recover from hard
    efforts, and I recently overdid my interval training. So I'm wary of overtraining now and have
    probably NOT been training as hard as I could/should.

    I haven't done a formal interval workout for a while, but I get into my anaerobic range at least
    once on all but hardcore recovery workouts.

    What's the standard for taking a no-bs recovery day(s)? X number of intervals in a workout at X
    intensity. Or is it best to use my body as my guide? The legs will complain if I've worked them hard
    yesterday - should I ignore them if my resting HR seems okay that morning?

    --
    --
    Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall "I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we
    could to protect our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security." --Microsoft VP in
    charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.
     
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  2. The Gopheur

    The Gopheur Guest

    On Mon, 09 Jun 2003 11:40:51 -0600, Raptor <[email protected]> wrote:

    >I turn 40 this year and am experiencing the old man syndrome. It takes longer to recover from hard
    >efforts, and I recently overdid my interval training. So I'm wary of overtraining now and have
    >probably NOT been training as hard as I could/should.
    >
    >I haven't done a formal interval workout for a while, but I get into my anaerobic range at least
    >once on all but hardcore recovery workouts.
    >
    >What's the standard for taking a no-bs recovery day(s)? X number of intervals in a workout at X
    >intensity. Or is it best to use my body as my guide? The legs will complain if I've worked them
    >hard yesterday - should I ignore them if my resting HR seems okay that morning?
    >
    >--

    easy one.

    start keeping a daily log of your waking heart/pulse rate. take it every morning when you first wake
    up *before* getting outta bed.

    if your resting pulse rate is ever 10 beats or more per minute above your average, you need to rest.
    just rest until your waking pulse falls back to under 10 beats of the average. dosen't get any
    easier than that. ( although the 10 beat limit is admitedly a fuzzy border value for *all* peeps,
    it's a nice general guideline.)

    go-go

    ps to lynn - from your other thread "I knew I was too heavy" : you need learn to draft better. it's
    a skill many folks ignore and need much improvement upon. if you can avg. 23 mph, you have plenty
    of fitness to finish lower category races, you just need the skills to do so.

    even if you increase your fitness, ( always a good thing as martha stew would say!) you still have
    to learn to relax in the pack to use that improved fitness. try to start climbing hills in the top
    10 of the pack and fade back to the middle of the pack by the top of the climb. then rinse, lather,
    repeat for each lap and you'll stay secure ( and resting! ) in the middle of the pack for 75% of the
    race. it's a tough skill to describe and learn 'till you see someone actually executing it during a
    race. then it clicks for you.

    remember, hanging out in the back 1/2 of a pack during a race is very strenous work. it's a great
    way to waste large amounts of physical and emotional energy .
     
  3. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Raptor <[email protected]> wrote:

    > I turn 40 this year and am experiencing the old man syndrome. It takes longer to recover from hard
    > efforts, and I recently overdid my interval training. So I'm wary of overtraining now and have
    > probably NOT been training as hard as I could/should.
    >
    > I haven't done a formal interval workout for a while, but I get into my anaerobic range at least
    > once on all but hardcore recovery workouts.
    >
    > What's the standard for taking a no-bs recovery day(s)? X number of intervals in a workout at X
    > intensity. Or is it best to use my body as my guide? The legs will complain if I've worked them
    > hard yesterday - should I ignore them if my resting HR seems okay that morning?

    Why is a person who doesn't race (much) doing more than one day out of 7-10 with anaerobic
    intervals? Quick path to peaking and overtraining.

    To increase your recovery between rides and between hard efforts, and to minimize your chances of
    burnout, spend more time doing intervals 5-20 bpm below your LT. My coach got me doing this and my
    recovery has gotten amazingly better. Better recovery allows for more hard work during training but
    first you have to get the aerobic system developed enough to help your recovery.

    -WG
     
  4. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <ixbFa.2890$Jw6[email protected]>, Kurgan Gringioni
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:090620031638344413%[email protected]...
    > > In article <[email protected]>, Raptor <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > > Why is a person who doesn't race (much) doing more than one day out of 7-10 with anaerobic
    > > intervals? Quick path to peaking and overtraining.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Why does it matter? People who don't race much are riding their bike for fun and should do
    > whatever feels good. If that means racing Freds during lunch, so be it.

    He said he was doing anaerobic intervals regularly. That is counter-productive for his stated goals,
    none of which mentioned racing Freds at lunch.

    He said what he had been doing wasn't working. As Dr. Phil would say, "How's that been
    workin' for ya?"

    -WG trainer of talk show personalities
     
  5. Raptor

    Raptor Guest

    warren wrote:

    > Why is a person who doesn't race (much) doing more than one day out of 7-10 with anaerobic
    > intervals? Quick path to peaking and overtraining.
    >
    > To increase your recovery between rides and between hard efforts, and to minimize your chances of
    > burnout, spend more time doing intervals 5-20 bpm below your LT. My coach got me doing this and my
    > recovery has gotten amazingly better. Better recovery allows for more hard work during training
    > but first you have to get the aerobic system developed enough to help your recovery.
    >
    > -WG

    I seem to be there already. I've done a lot of that kind of work too, but usually can't resist
    racing traffic on my way home, or hammering on a steep section. I recover during rides and other
    exercise quite quickly. Unfortunately, the allowed recovery periods at the race I did were about 20
    seconds too short for me.

    --
    --
    Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall "I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we
    could to protect our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security." --Microsoft VP in
    charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.
     
  6. Raptor

    Raptor Guest

    warren wrote:
    > He said he was doing anaerobic intervals regularly. That is counter-productive for his stated
    > goals, none of which mentioned racing Freds at lunch.
    >
    > He said what he had been doing wasn't working. As Dr. Phil would say, "How's that been workin'
    > for ya?"
    >
    > -WG trainer of talk show personalities

    I didn't say that though, just that I'd overdone my interval work recently. I packed too many
    into to short a time frame, once or twice. I thought I'd hit a nice fitness plateau that would
    fulfill my needs, but I'm going to reach for higher level. I just need to get more systematic
    about my recovery.

    --
    --
    Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall "I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we
    could to protect our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security." --Microsoft VP in
    charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.
     
  7. Bart

    Bart Guest

    "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote
    >
    > Why does it matter? People who don't race much are riding their bike for fun and should do
    > whatever feels good. If that means racing Freds during lunch, so be it.

    What if it means being a Fat Master ?
     
  8. "Bart" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote
    > >
    > > Why does it matter? People who don't race much are riding their bike for
    fun
    > > and should do whatever feels good. If that means racing Freds during
    lunch,
    > > so be it.
    >
    > What if it means being a Fat Master ?

    That's where the delusion begins setting in although certainly not all of the Masters Fatties have
    an exagerrated sense of their significance. It only takes a few to make an impression.
     
  9. "the gopheur" <gopher[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > On Mon, 09 Jun 2003 11:40:51 -0600, Raptor <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >I turn 40 this year and am experiencing the old man syndrome. It
    takes
    > >longer to recover from hard efforts, and I recently overdid my
    interval
    > >training. So I'm wary of overtraining now and have probably NOT
    been
    > >training as hard as I could/should.
    > >
    > >I haven't done a formal interval workout for a while, but I get
    into my
    > >anaerobic range at least once on all but hardcore recovery
    workouts.
    > >
    > >What's the standard for taking a no-bs recovery day(s)? X number
    of
    > >intervals in a workout at X intensity. Or is it best to use my
    body as
    > >my guide? The legs will complain if I've worked them hard
    yesterday -
    > >should I ignore them if my resting HR seems okay that morning?
    > >
    > >--
    >
    > easy one.
    >
    > start keeping a daily log of your waking heart/pulse rate.
    take
    > it every morning when you first wake up *before* getting outta bed.
    >
    > if your resting pulse rate is ever 10 beats or more per minute above your average, you need to
    > rest. just rest until your waking pulse falls back to under 10 beats of the average.
    dosen't
    > get any easier than that. ( although the 10 beat limit is
    admitedly
    > a fuzzy border value for *all* peeps, it's a nice general
    guideline.)

    That's it? An "easy one"? Resting HR up 10 beats then rest? Wow, that's an awfully simplistic answer
    to one of the most fundamental questions about training.

    To the original poster: the advice from Gopheur is correst insofar as a higher resting HR in the
    morning is a sign to take it easy. But there are lots of other possible signs -- like HR not able to
    climb to expected levels when working out, or HR excessively high, or feeling bad, or going slow.

    The key things are to

    1) Plan easy days or rest days and don't do anything hard on them.

    2) Keep a log or other record of your training, resting and racing. Over time you may begin to see
    how much recovery you need from specific workouts. One useful tool if you use a windtrainer is to
    do a ramp test, where you do a series of three or four periods of two to four minutes
    increasingly fast and record your HR at the end of each one. Then also rest for a minute at the
    end of the series and record your HR. Add up the values and you'll get a number that you can use
    to compare your state of fitness and fatigue from day to day. The ramp can serve as a warmup, and
    the intensities of the stages should move from very easy, to moderate, to the intensity of a long
    time trial. This is just one idea.

    JT

    --
    *******************************************
    NB: reply-to address is munged

    Visit http://www.jt10000.com
    *******************************************
     
  10. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Kurgan Gringioni
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > "Bart" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote
    > > >
    > > > Why does it matter? People who don't race much are riding their bike for
    > fun
    > > > and should do whatever feels good. If that means racing Freds during
    > lunch,
    > > > so be it.
    > >
    > > What if it means being a Fat Master ?
    >
    >
    >
    > That's where the delusion begins setting in although certainly not all of the Masters Fatties have
    > an exagerrated sense of their significance. It only takes a few to make an impression.

    FWIW, I recently noticed there are more fat guys in the Senior 3's than in the 35+ 1,2,3 here
    in NorCal.

    "...Not that there's anything wrong with that."

    -WG
     
  11. Dashi Toshii

    Dashi Toshii Guest

    "John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "the gopheur" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > On Mon, 09 Jun 2003 11:40:51 -0600, Raptor <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    >
    > The key things are to
    >
    > 1) Plan easy days or rest days and don't do anything hard on them.
    >
    > 2) Keep a log or other record of your training, resting and racing. Over time you may begin to see
    > how much recovery you need from specific workouts. One useful tool if you use a windtrainer is
    > to do a ramp test, where you do a series of three or four periods of two to four minutes
    > increasingly fast and record your HR at the end of each one. Then also rest for a minute at the
    > end of the series and record your HR. Add up the values and you'll get a number that you can
    > use to compare your state of fitness and fatigue from day to day. The ramp can serve as a
    > warmup, and the intensities of the stages should move from very easy, to moderate, to the
    > intensity of a long time trial. This is just one idea.
    >
    > JT

    I say ride how you feel once warmed up.

    If you feel good ride hard, not so good back off a little.

    Take a day or two off when you feel like it.

    Fartlek (speedplay) works.

    Dashii
     
  12. "Dashi Toshii" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > Fartlek (speedplay) works.

    Disagree.

    I joked about holding a girlfriend's head under the bedcovers when I farted and she said she'd dump
    me on the spot if I did.
     
  13. Dashi Toshii

    Dashi Toshii Guest

    "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "Dashi Toshii" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > > Fartlek (speedplay) works.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Disagree.
    >
    >
    > I joked about holding a girlfriend's head under the bedcovers when I
    farted
    > and she said she'd dump me on the spot if I did.

    No, no! You are thinking about Fartlick (foreplay) not Fartlek (speedplay).

    Dashii
     
  14. Neptunium

    Neptunium Guest

  15. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, NEPTUNIUM <[email protected]> wrote:

    > please read this first before thinking
    >
    > http://www.greglemond.com/site/gregstips.shtml
    >
    > from greg in san mateo california

    I doubt Greg LeMond aggrees with alot of what's there since there are errors and false statements in
    virtually every section.

    For example...

    "1. Maximum effort (sprints): This effort lasts 10 to 25 seconds.
    - It is similar to a 200 meter sprint.
    - It calls for 100 percent of your maximum heartbeat."

    Your HR will not get to 100% in only 25 seconds.

    "2. Submaximum effort (pure anaerobic interval): This effort lasts 25 seconds to two minutes.
    - It is similar to a one-kilometer time trial on the track.
    - Your body is operating at very nearly 100 percent of your maximum heartbeat.
    - It is considered the purely anaerobic interval."

    Many kilo riders will not hit their MHR and it is well-documented that 20-40% of the energy utilized
    during a kilo is aerobic, not 0% as stated. It's even more aerobic for a 2-minute interval.

    "4. Average intensity (anaerobic threshold): This exercise lasts from four to 30 minutes.
    - It is similar to a five to 20 kilometer individual time trial.
    - Your heart rate is between 90 and 100 percent of its maximum.
    - In this exercise the body uses aerobic oxidation (oxygen provided through the bloodstream) because
    it is not in an anaerobic state."

    I doubt that anyone can go to 100% of MHR when they are "not in an anaerobic state." Even 90% of MHR
    and completely aerobic would be most unusual.

    "5. Light intensity (intense aerobic): This exercise lasts 30 minutes or more.
    - This exercise is similar to a 25 mile time trial up to a long-distance but intense effort.
    - Your heart rate is at 80 to 90 percent of its maximum during this exercise.
    - Your body is in an exclusively aerobic state.
    - Your body will first burn the glycogen it has stored. After that you will be running off fatty
    acids. This is the bonks (complete exhaustion).

    You don't burn glycogen and THEN fatty acids at this intensity. You burn them both simultaneously.
    If you run out of glycogen you'll burn fatty acids but also protein (from muscle tissue). And the
    "bonks" is not complete exhaustion.

    It sounds like this was all translated from another laguage by someone who was a "personal trainer"
    at a local gym.

    -WG
     
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