How not to lose fitness in the off season

[DavidM]

It seems we are forced by the seasons to follow a periodised 12 monthly cycle in our training. I guess this is not necessarily ideal in terms of progressive improvement in performance measured in the long term, over a series of years.

If you believe in the scientific approach to training, with OVERLOAD and SPECIFICITY being paramount, and are training for aerobic power, then there are only two sorts of workout worth doing: 1. Supra-Threshold intervals (by definition, must be intervals, or they wouldn't be supre-threshold), and 2. Race pace, or actual racing.

ANYTHING else is either too slow to produce gains in aerobic power, or not-specific enough to train your neuromuscular efficiency.

As far as I can see, the traditional long, moderate exertion winter training ride is a total waste of time, unless you're trying to lose weight perhaps. It can never make you faster, and can only result in mal-adaptation. I accept it may help to shift your metabolism to fat utilisation, but this is of no importance if your longest race is 1 hour.

Lets say you're the ideal weight at the start of the off-season. What is a more sensible winter program if your aim is aerobic power during the racing season ? How can you carry over as much of last year's fitness to the next year, and still allow some psychological rest from heavy intensity training ? I am considering the benefits of a single VO2max (max HR) interval per week, but cannot face extended race efforts at all.


--------------------


I'm going to be controversial and say I can't see the training benefit of EVER riding your bike at less than race pace. Anything slower will make you slower, and should be time spent resting.

 

[BanditManDan]

I'm going to be controversial and say I can't see the training benefit of EVER riding your bike at less than race pace. Anything slower will make you slower, and should be time spent resting.

Riding slower following a hard day of training hardly makes you a slower rider, it's simply a recover ride. Sometimes a slow ride is used to help recovery by clearing lactic acid from the muscles. And if every ride is at race pace then when do you practice technic's? Are you saying that there are no benifits to focusing on pedal stroke what so ever?

 

[DavidM]

I used to believe in recovery rides, but now think probably your resting circulation does just as good a job of 'clearing' lactate. Actually I think it would be very surprising if it didn't.

My understanding of pedalling style/efficiency is that style at one effort level is not transferrable to another. i.e. to get a smooth style at racing pace, you need to train your style AT racing pace. Also, it seems smooth pedalling doesn' make you faster afterall, so why bother at all ?

 

[BanditManDan]

For me a recovery ride can be relaxing and enjoyable rather than always pushing hard. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy training hard too but I personally need the diversity to keep from getting burned out. So perhaps your right and a recovery ride isn't more benificial than simple rest but I still don't see how it can make me slower.

As for pedal stroke, a good pedal stroke is just muscle memory. The more time spend riding correctly the better chances you have at riding correctly during a race.

 

[Carrera]

I agree with you. There's much to be said for a nice, relaxed, low-intensity recovery ride. Younger riders can train hard all the time and pound the road but what about 10 years later? I think joints and tendons appreciate some relief from all that sprinting and climbing every so often.
I try to force myself to do recovery rides even when I don't want to. I just feel it makes sense to periodise my efforts and let my body recuperate from the harder stuff.

For me a recovery ride can be relaxing and enjoyable rather than always pushing hard. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy training hard too but I personally need the diversity to keep from getting burned out. So perhaps your right and a recovery ride isn't more benificial than simple rest but I still don't see how it can make me slower.

As for pedal stroke, a good pedal stroke is just muscle memory. The more time spend riding correctly the better chances you have at riding correctly during a race.

 

[memphiscyclist]

It seems we are forced by the seasons to follow a periodised 12 monthly cycle in our training. I guess this is not necessarily ideal in terms of progressive improvement in performance measured in the long term, over a series of years.

If you believe in the scientific approach to training, with OVERLOAD and SPECIFICITY being paramount, and are training for aerobic power, then there are only two sorts of workout worth doing: 1. Supra-Threshold intervals (by definition, must be intervals, or they wouldn't be supre-threshold), and 2. Race pace, or actual racing.

ANYTHING else is either too slow to produce gains in aerobic power, or not-specific enough to train your neuromuscular efficiency.

As far as I can see, the traditional long, moderate exertion winter training ride is a total waste of time, unless you're trying to lose weight perhaps. It can never make you faster, and can only result in mal-adaptation. I accept it may help to shift your metabolism to fat utilisation, but this is of no importance if your longest race is 1 hour.

Lets say you're the ideal weight at the start of the off-season. What is a more sensible winter program if your aim is aerobic power during the racing season ? How can you carry over as much of last year's fitness to the next year, and still allow some psychological rest from heavy intensity training ? I am considering the benefits of a single VO2max (max HR) interval per week, but cannot face extended race efforts at all.


--------------------


I'm going to be controversial and say I can't see the training benefit of EVER riding your bike at less than race pace. Anything slower will make you slower, and should be time spent resting.

You are misinformed about some of your training methods. Without starting a big debate, buy Joe Friel's "Cyclist's Training Bible". It will help you out. Frankly, most of your training time should consist of aerobic endurance, or sub-threshold...in your terms, significantly below race pace. You can't train at race pace every day or you will lose fitness. If you do a time trial on Sunday, you need to do an easy spin ride on Mon, maybe sprint intervals on Tues, easy spin on Wed, hill intervals on Thurs, easy spin on Friday, race on Saturday, and then easy spin on Sunday. The long easy winter rides help you to recover from a hard 8 months or so of racing and allow you to continue to build your ability to ride for a long time without as much fatigue. Intervals started in the early part of the year, or "race pace training" builds your ability to ride for long periods at a high intensity.

 

[DavidM]

I'll narrow it down a bit. Lets say I'm a short distance timetriallist, never races longer than 60 minutes, I've done all my 'base' miles, I've accustomed my body to the cycling action, and have a good level of basic fitness. I have as low a level of body fat as I need. Given all this, how does ever riding your bike at LESS than race pace EVER make you a faster rider ? I know it goes against accepted practice, I'm just questioning accepted practice, as it seems to make so little sense.

I'll throw caution to the wind, and state my theory again - that if speed over an aerobic distance is your goal (and given the above) , then to EVER ride at less than race pace will make you slower, not faster. Show me evidence to the contrary. I don't think you'll find any, as the more I think about this, the more obvious it becomes - assuming you believe in OVERLOAD, SPECIFICITY, and REST. I contend that REST is best done off the bike.

 

[NJK]

Riding slower following a hard day of training hardly makes you a slower rider, it's simply a recover ride. Sometimes a slow ride is used to help recovery by clearing lactic acid from the muscles. And if every ride is at race pace then when do you practice technic's? Are you saying that there are no benifits to focusing on pedal stroke what so ever?

Lactic acid won't be in the muscle 24hrs after a hard session. It's likely that the discomfort is down micro tears in the muscle. If your position is correct on the bike then their isn't alot of technique involved in pedalling a bike.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Lactic acid won't be in the muscle 24hrs after a hard session. It's likely that the discomfort is down micro tears in the muscle. If your position is correct on the bike then their isn't alot of technique involved in pedalling a bike.

to add a little more, even after supramaximal effort (e.g., 1-km all-out track TT) lactate will have completely dispersed within 90-mins.

further, there's virtually no technique involved in terms of pedalling mechanics - it's a gross motor control sport. your feet and legs are constrained in the sagittal plane and basically most people can pedal a bike!

ric

 

[ric_stern/RST]

If you believe in the scientific approach to training, with OVERLOAD and SPECIFICITY being paramount, and are training for aerobic power, then there are only two sorts of workout worth doing: 1. Supra-Threshold intervals (by definition, must be intervals, or they wouldn't be supre-threshold), and 2. Race pace, or actual racing.

ANYTHING else is either too slow to produce gains in aerobic power, or not-specific enough to train your neuromuscular efficiency.

David,
in part you're correct: in theory if all you are doing is e.g., 60min TTs then you could probably train with sessions at this effort (maybe not as long) and shorter, higher intensity intervals.

however, in practice there's likely a few cons to this: the first issue being most people would be bored with the routine in a very short period of time -- this could lead to burnout (note: not overtraining), you might gain fat mass, and did i mention you'd likely be bored!?

As far as I can see, the traditional long, moderate exertion winter training ride is a total waste of time, unless you're trying to lose weight perhaps.

i agree completely, that for most racers just riding around at low intensity is not only a complete waste of time but will lead to detraining.

Lets say you're the ideal weight at the start of the off-season. What is a more sensible winter program if your aim is aerobic power during the racing season ? How can you carry over as much of last year's fitness to the next year, and still allow some psychological rest from heavy intensity training ? I am considering the benefits of a single VO2max (max HR) interval per week, but cannot face extended race efforts at all.

i'm not 100% certain what you mean here: if you mean that all you do each week is one single VO2max effort (you don't have to go anywhere near HRmax to reach VO2max) then you'd be severely detrained after the winter.

although the ideas you suggest in the first paragraph are correct you should also note in this article http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=powerstern towards the end the table "Benefits and characteristics of each training zone". From zone 2 there are oxidative benefits that will lead to increases in e.g. TTpower and to a lesser extent VO2max and MAP. This session can be done for up to several hours. At zone 3 there's a definite benefit to increased TT performance as you're now at most peoples LT (as determined in a lab) and again this can be done for substantial periods of time -- i often have people train at this intensity from 30-mins to 2hrs. Zones 3, 4, and 5 are the really important training zones for such TT performances.

ric

 

[DavidM]

You are misinformed about some of your training methods. Without starting a big debate, buy Joe Friel's "Cyclist's Training Bible". It will help you out. .

I actually think a debate might be useful. I suspect there is a large amount of hearsay and "accepted" methods of training that are frankly wrong. I know personal experience is hardly 'proof' of any sort, but I had my best racing season ever, when I was forced by work to halve my training time. I did nothing but quality work, all intervals, lots of 'forced' (off the bike) rest, and racing efforts twice a week. No recovery rides, no low intensity endurance rides. I took all my PBs at 10, 25 and 50 miles, on 2-3 hrs riding per week, including racing.

I can't help feeling time spent riding gently is wasted time, if your goal is aerobic speed over less than 50 miles.

As an aside, I'm sure swimmers used to be well known for 'excessive' hours in the pool. Didn't the Australian team radically cut back on hours to focus on speed work, with huge success ? - I'm sure I heard that somewhere.

 

[BanditManDan]

to add a little more, even after supramaximal effort (e.g., 1-km all-out track TT) lactate will have completely dispersed within 90-mins.

further, there's virtually no technique involved in terms of pedalling mechanics - it's a gross motor control sport. your feet and legs are constrained in the sagittal plane and basically most people can pedal a bike!

ric

Huh..that's funny, I know of a junior who is constantly throwing his knees way out to the sides when he has to pedal hard. This has even caused him to un-clip under extreme conditions and I thought it was effecting his TT times, but I guess I was wrong. He'll be glad to know that there is no reason to work on his technique since it doesn't take much to pedal a bike competitively.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Huh..that's funny, I know of a junior who is constantly throwing his knees way out to the sides when he has to pedal hard. This has even caused him to un-clip under extreme conditions and I thought it was effecting his TT times, but I guess I was wrong. He'll be glad to know that there is no reason to work on his technique since it doesn't take much to pedal a bike competitively.

Thanks for the advice.

that's why i wrote "...virtually no technique..." and "...most people can pedal...".

ric

 

[memphiscyclist]

I actually think a debate might be useful. I suspect there is a large amount of hearsay and "accepted" methods of training that are frankly wrong. I know personal experience is hardly 'proof' of any sort, but I had my best racing season ever, when I was forced by work to halve my training time. I did nothing but quality work, all intervals, lots of 'forced' (off the bike) rest, and racing efforts twice a week. No recovery rides, no low intensity endurance rides. I took all my PBs at 10, 25 and 50 miles, on 2-3 hrs riding per week, including racing.

I can't help feeling time spent riding gently is wasted time, if your goal is aerobic speed over less than 50 miles.

As an aside, I'm sure swimmers used to be well known for 'excessive' hours in the pool. Didn't the Australian team radically cut back on hours to focus on speed work, with huge success ? - I'm sure I heard that somewhere.

When I say long easy rides, I don't mean riding around aimlessly for hours at 110 bpm. I believe I generally stay in zone 3. Since my max HR is 196, that puts me at between 145 and 165 bpm for the entire ride (4 hrs). I try to stay between 155 and 165 bpm.

 

[DavidM]

When I say long easy rides, I don't mean riding around aimlessly for hours at 110 bpm. I believe I generally stay in zone 3. Since my max HR is 196, that puts me at between 145 and 165 bpm for the entire ride (4 hrs). I try to stay between 155 and 165 bpm.

Yup - thats just what I mean. Well submaximal, but enough to completely deplete your energy/gycogen reserves. I guess thats fine if you're a roadie and plan on doing 4-5 hr races, maybe not all at maximal effort. But I'm a short distance timetriallist. Speed is everything. Riding 'slowly' can never improve your speed. And rest means rest, not pedalling.

 

[memphiscyclist]

Yup - thats just what I mean. Well submaximal, but enough to completely deplete your energy/gycogen reserves. I guess thats fine if you're a roadie and plan on doing 4-5 hr races, maybe not all at maximal effort. But I'm a short distance timetriallist. Speed is everything. Riding 'slowly' can never improve your speed. And rest means rest, not pedalling.

Ok, well short TT training is definately different than RR training, and yes slow pedaling will not improve speed, but it does as a fact speed recovery and fitness, so I still recommend doing at least a short recovery ride (zone 1 or 2) on days that you are not doing intervals, even if it is only 30 minutes. Key is to ride consistently, which means just about every day with maybe one day off, or two at the most a week. I guarantee you that pros follow this routine. I did the "intense training one day and day off the bike the next" routine for a couple of years before I started riding 5-6 days a week with recovery rides every other day. The improvement was absolutely incredible.

 

[whoawhoa]

HA! I've wondered about this for a while. It seems that slow training is fairly pointless. Though I try to include one long ride a week. (Just the distance of my longer races.

 

[jagrazor]

I'll narrow it down a bit. Lets say I'm a short distance timetriallist, never races longer than 60 minutes, I've done all my 'base' miles, I've accustomed my body to the cycling action, and have a good level of basic fitness. I have as low a level of body fat as I need. Given all this, how does ever riding your bike at LESS than race pace EVER make you a faster rider ? I know it goes against accepted practice, I'm just questioning accepted practice, as it seems to make so little sense.

I'll throw caution to the wind, and state my theory again - that if speed over an aerobic distance is your goal (and given the above) , then to EVER ride at less than race pace will make you slower, not faster. Show me evidence to the contrary. I don't think you'll find any, as the more I think about this, the more obvious it becomes - assuming you believe in OVERLOAD, SPECIFICITY, and REST. I contend that REST is best done off the bike.

Think about it a little bit dude, if lifting weights can help you become a better cyclist (assuming your new) then why wouldn't a slow long ride affect you. Do you feel tired after a slow long ride? Can you actually Handle 7 days a week of hard training w/o a slower recovery ride? Increasing fitness has two parts, workout and recovery. So for that part, a slow ride is beneficial.

Ok so slow ride is good for recovery, we agree on that...

How about a long slow ride, or even all your rides being slow (say 130-150 HR) or basically what a runner would call "talking pace"

Do you feel tired after going for a long ride? If so, then you have caused adaptation. Does this effect you? Yes. Alan Webb had 100MPW summer before he ran his 3:53 in high school. While no other athletes doing similar race pace and interval workouts reach near that, without doing a larger amount of mileage. (anecdotal evidence)

I will have to rely on someone else to give better evidence, unless they already have, i havent read this entire thread. I can't think right now. Cold/migrane

 

[nitrogenmustard]

i think we need ricstern on this issue-

but heres my tencents-riding outside 7 days a week WILL make you a better technical rider, even if the improvements are marginal, that can mean the difference of 1st or 5th in races that are decided by less than 1/100th of a second. riding often also make you smarter, meaning you'll know how hard you can push yourself, how steep is steep enough to stand up, when to sit down in a sprint, and when and how much to ease off to stop from blowing up.
along with making you smarter, (faster in a mevchanical sense), can anybody here name one well known professional rider that doesnt train nearly every day? i think that statistic speaks for itself.

-nitro

 

[Smartt/RST]

i think we need ricstern on this issue-

but heres my tencents-riding outside 7 days a week WILL make you a better technical rider, even if the improvements are marginal, that can mean the difference of 1st or 5th in races that are decided by less than 1/100th of a second. riding often also make you smarter, meaning you'll know how hard you can push yourself, how steep is steep enough to stand up, when to sit down in a sprint, and when and how much to ease off to stop from blowing up.
along with making you smarter, (faster in a mevchanical sense), can anybody here name one well known professional rider that doesnt train nearly every day? i think that statistic speaks for itself.

-nitro

I suggest keeping the debate to a comparison of apples, and not apples to oranges. What an elite athlete does or does not do often has a lot less to do with what the rest of us should do than most of us would like to admit.... wow...that was just a horrible sentence!
Also, if you only trained at intensities that were very similar to race pace, would you not be just as accumstomed to all of the skills that you mention for the speeds/intensity/feel-of-the-bike-at-race-pace that you mention?