How soon will disk brakes be used on road racing cycles?



doiturself

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Jul 4, 2011
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We all know that caliper brakes with rubber pads are 19th century tech; cyclocross finally came into the 20th century and are now allowing disks. When we will be able to finally have competitiion road bikes with disk brakes?

The weight and aerodynamics are not issues except for purists. Making a lightweight streamlined disk brake for a road bike is child's play given the state of modern engineering.

My buddy who races cyclocross says 2-3 years we'll be seeing these. I agree./img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif
 

vspa

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Jan 11, 2009
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wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by doiturself .
The weight and aerodynamics are not issues except for purists.
 

Eichers

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Sep 17, 2010
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Originally Posted by doiturself .

We all know that caliper brakes with rubber pads are 19th century tech; cyclocross finally came into the 20th century and are now allowing disks. When we will be able to finally have competitiion road bikes with disk brakes?

The weight and aerodynamics are not issues except for purists. Making a lightweight streamlined disk brake for a road bike is child's play given the state of modern engineering.

My buddy who races cyclocross says 2-3 years we'll be seeing these. I agree./img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif
Hi doiturself, definitely a good idea for touring and commuting :)

Because the range of 26" touring tyres is relatively small, compared to 700 touring tyres, I am thinking of using a 700 disc hubbed wheelset on my 26" MTB. The 700 x 23, to about 32, tyres fit nicely on a 26" MTB :)
 

swampy1970

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Feb 3, 2008
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Road brakes are more than good enough for the task at hand and maintenance is close to zero. The conditions required for disk brakes to become an advantage are often more extreme than encountered on all but the very worst rides/races that a guy on a road bike will endure...

Just imagine the fun of neatly integrating a hydraulic fluid reservoir for a high end, light weight, road racing bike into a set of carbon bars or a fly-by-wire system with the reservoir being away from the bars completely and at the same time stuffing a Dura Ace Di2 battery somewhere neat too and sensors like Trek's duo tap.

With the 14.9lb UCI rule, a disk brake system could be put on a bike and still be close to a competitive weight.

Houston we have a problem, you pull on the rear brake lever and the bike computer reports I'm putting out 1900 watts at 3rpm and the gears get put into 53x11 and the ABS servo beeps at me before locking up the front brake and then the check engine light comes on...

Simple is good.
 

stevegreer

Member
Sep 4, 2008
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Originally Posted by vspa .


wrong

Agreed. Weight weenies will not stand for even one single ounce of added rotating mass. Disk brakes work great for bringing 30 lbs mountain bikes to a stop, but are really overkill for 15 - 20 lbs road bikes. Don't see it happening in racing any time soon, if at all. I have seen some touring and commuter bikes with disk brakes though.
 

doiturself

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Jul 4, 2011
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There won't be any additional weight; when I mentioned that aero and grams were not issues except for purists, I should have been more clear. What I meant was the aesthetic values; purists want their bikes to look "classic" or traditional. Disk brakes can easily be made that weigh less than current calipers. Because they are not yet allowed in road racing, there has been no financial incentive to do so but it would be child's play to design them. Pretty much the same things were said about disks on motorcycles in the 1960s; now look at them. Many of the same objections were made about all kinds of technology that is now commonly accepted with road bikes.

Disk brakes can also be cable actuated and are very effective that way. This system would be very light and seamlessly integrate into current shifter/brake hardware.

In a few short years we will see electronic shifting and disk brakes on competition road-racing cycles at the highest levels.
 

doiturself

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Jul 4, 2011
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Simple may be good, but winning is better. This stuff is on its way. Hydraulics are not necessary; cable-actuated disks are very effective. The size of the disk itself would be much smaller than on current MTBs as would the caliper.

Originally Posted by swampy1970 .

Road brakes are more than good enough for the task at hand and maintenance is close to zero. The conditions required for disk brakes to become an advantage are often more extreme than encountered on all but the very worst rides/races that a guy on a road bike will endure...

Just imagine the fun of neatly integrating a hydraulic fluid reservoir for a high end, light weight, road racing bike into a set of carbon bars or a fly-by-wire system with the reservoir being away from the bars completely and at the same time stuffing a Dura Ace Di2 battery somewhere neat too and sensors like Trek's duo tap.

With the 14.9lb UCI rule, a disk brake system could be put on a bike and still be close to a competitive weight.

Houston we have a problem, you pull on the rear brake lever and the bike computer reports I'm putting out 1900 watts at 3rpm and the gears get put into 53x11 and the ABS servo beeps at me before locking up the front brake and then the check engine light comes on...

Simple is good.
 

doiturself

Member
Jul 4, 2011
85
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0
Quote:
Originally Posted by swampy1970 .

Just imagine the fun of neatly integrating a hydraulic fluid reservoir for a high end, light weight, road racing bike into a set of carbon bars or a fly-by-wire system with the reservoir being away from the bars completely and at the same time stuffing a Dura Ace Di2 battery somewhere neat too and sensors like Trek's duo tap.


Right now someone is having a lot of fun.../img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif
 

dabac

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Sep 16, 2003
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Er, aren't you forgetting about the rider?

A 175 lbs road rider on a 15 lbs road bike will be just as hard to stop as a 160 lbs MTBer on a 30 lbs MTB. Looking at what would be needed to bring the bike only to a standstill doesn't make any sense.

Besides, relieving the rim sidewall of its double duty of being both a structural member and a friction surface might bring some rewards. No need to worry about CF rims and hard braking any more for instance.

And what added mass there might be will end up by the hub, where it's far less influential than out by the rim.(where it might be possible to save some.)
Originally Posted by stevegreer .
Disk brakes work great for bringing 30 lbs mountain bikes to a stop, but are really overkill for 15 - 20 lbs road bikes.
 

dabac

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Sep 16, 2003
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Originally Posted by swampy1970 .

Just imagine the fun of neatly integrating a hydraulic fluid reservoir for a high end, light weight, road racing bike into a set of carbon bars or a fly-by-wire system with the reservoir being away from the bars completely and at the same time stuffing a Dura Ace Di2 battery somewhere neat too and sensors like Trek's duo tap.

With the 14.9lb UCI rule, a disk brake system could be put on a bike and still be close to a competitive weight.

There's the Doppelmoppel by German company Trickstuff, which seems to pull it off reasonably well. http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/eurobike-2010-trickstuff-cyclo-cross-disc-brake-converter-27723/

Unless you've really got your mind set on being both aero and really light at the same time, hitting UCI race weight isn't going to be much of a problem.

But I agree, for road use, rim brakes do the job quite well.
I'm a bit surprised why more people aren't using ceramic-coated rims though. I see them as a happy intermediate.
Rim wear pretty much goes away, braking (particularly in the wet) is considerably improved, heat transfer to tire/tube is reduced. And all you have to change on the bike is the brake pads.
Sure, there's a hefty price tag on them, but for something that'll last until destroyed by accident, that really shouldn't be so much of a concern.
 

mitosis

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Jun 21, 2004
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Too heavy, current brakes work too well, difficulties with a quick wheel change..

Originally Posted by doiturself .

We all know that caliper brakes with rubber pads are 19th century tech; cyclocross finally came into the 20th century and are now allowing disks. When we will be able to finally have competitiion road bikes with disk brakes?

The weight and aerodynamics are not issues except for purists. Making a lightweight streamlined disk brake for a road bike is child's play given the state of modern engineering.

My buddy who races cyclocross says 2-3 years we'll be seeing these. I agree./img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif
 

stevegreer

Member
Sep 4, 2008
166
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Originally Posted by dabac .


Er, aren't you forgetting about the rider?

A 175 lbs road rider on a 15 lbs road bike will be just as hard to stop as a 160 lbs MTBer on a 30 lbs MTB. Looking at what would be needed to bring the bike only to a standstill doesn't make any sense.

Besides, relieving the rim sidewall of its double duty of being both a structural member and a friction surface might bring some rewards. No need to worry about CF rims and hard braking any more for instance.

And what added mass there might be will end up by the hub, where it's far less influential than out by the rim.(where it might be possible to save some.)

Er, aren't you forgetting that it is 2011 and road racers still use rim brakes and not disk brakes? There must be a reason for that. I can confidently say that, yes, taking rider weight into consideration, and as a rider of both road bikes and mountain bikes, that disk brakes are just more practical for use on mountain bikes than on road bikes. All of the road bikes I now own and have previously owned, obviously, have had rim brakes. I have no issues with them and have always felt more than confident in their stopping power. However, I have owned a mountain bike with rim brakes, and now currently one with disk brakes. And there's a good reason why I got rid of the bike with the rim brakes and bought one with disk brakes.

I understand your arguments, and you do make some good points. But I still maintain that disk brakes are overkill for road bikes.
 

doiturself

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Jul 4, 2011
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Originally Posted by dabac .


Er, aren't you forgetting about the rider?

A 175 lbs road rider on a 15 lbs road bike will be just as hard to stop as a 160 lbs MTBer on a 30 lbs MTB. Looking at what would be needed to bring the bike only to a standstill doesn't make any sense.

Besides, relieving the rim sidewall of its double duty of being both a structural member and a friction surface might bring some rewards. No need to worry about CF rims and hard braking any more for instance.

And what added mass there might be will end up by the hub, where it's far less influential than out by the rim.(where it might be possible to save some.)
Rim brakes, compared with disks, are really awful. The only reason they persist is because of tradition and rules still in the dark ages. I come from racing motorcycles where disk brakes have been used for over forty years. The same things were said when someone got the idea to go from drums to disks for motorcycles: "too heavy, the drums work fine". If you've never experienced the ability of a modern sport motorcycle to accelerate, turn, and stop, you would be shocked. Not only do disks provide far more stopping power with virtually no fade at all, they allow extremely fine control over the amount of braking. Both these things are of great value in getting down a piece of pavement quicker. Those calipers with rubber pads flex, they are inconsistent, the pads heat up straightaway and get grabby, heat is transferred into the rim and then into the tire...they are a lousy way to bring 150-200 lbs of bike and rider to a stop.

The reason some riders think calipers are perfectly adequate is because racing cyclists have adapted to the extreme limitations of rim brakes. If a rider is on a long fast descent, care has to be taken not to overheat the brakes, rims, and tires so the braking is naturally far less aggressive than it could be. The benefits dabac noted above are well-known; when you remove the burden of being a braking surface as well as a rim from the wheel assembly, the wheel can be made much, much lighter. Putting the small rotating mass of the disk close to the hub minimizes the weight effect, thus, the material saved in making the rim is simply relocated to the hub area, where it has less impact on handling. Weight is no issue at all, that part is easy.

The biggest benefit is going to be the ability to brake much later, with much more fine control and most important, confidence and consistency. That results in faster times and winning.

When we look at all the controversy about drugs being used for competition, seems like it would be easier to cut back on the doping and bring the bicycle into the 20th (not the 21st) century.
 

doiturself

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Jul 4, 2011
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Not my words, but so good I had to share (pulled from another forum):

To become standard on road bikes, disc brakes will need to be re-engineered for road needs. The disc rotor diameters should be smaller, the caliper actuators should be smaller and lighter, and the entire mechanism will need to become more aerodynamic.

These changes WILL come to road bikes. When a "road bike disc brake standard" is developed and accepted by the marketplace, discs will completely replace rim brakes on all (new) road bikes. Why will this change occur? Because the technology is superior. Disc brakes don't overheat rims and blow out tires. Disc brakes work better in wet/icy weather. Disc brakes work even when the rim is warped or damaged. Disc brakes don't wear out the rim. Disc brakes (being attached to the hub) can dissipate heat well. Disc brakes can be designed, manufactured, and maintenanced more easily than rim brakes.

The superiority of disc brakes is the reason discs are standard on everything from autos to aircraft to motorcycles. The future of ALL bicycle brakes is disc. It is only a matter of time and design.
And now that the rule change allows them on cyclocross, it's only a matter of time before they show up on road racing bikes. When we see a factor "name" rider flat-out smoke his own best time on a long fast descent with disks vs. rim brakes, everyone will be a believer.
 

doiturself

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Jul 4, 2011
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Check out this article:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/01/bikes-and-tech/velonews-tech-department-predictions-for-the-new-year-disc-brakes-and-electric-shifting-everywhere_154425
 

dhk2

Active Member
Aug 8, 2006
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Originally Posted by doiturself .

Not my words, but so good I had to share (pulled from another forum):


And now that the rule change allows them on cyclocross, it's only a matter of time before they show up on road racing bikes. When we see a factor "name" rider flat-out smoke his own best time on a long fast descent with disks vs. rim brakes, everyone will be a believer.
Welcome to the forum. You'll find lots of bold statements on this forum and others that don't stand up to much analysis. Case in point: how would disc brakes allow someone to "smoke" his best time on a long fast descent? On long fast descents, braking isn't required. And on "technical" descents, ie, those that require braking into turns, the way to "smoke" other riders is by braking less, not more. Since good caliper brakes enable me to brake as hard as I want (including up to wheel lockup), and have never showed any fading or other problems on the toughest descents I've done, afraid the need for "better brakes" just isn't on my radar screen, or anyone else's unless perhaps they are in the business of selling "improved technology".
 

davereo

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Jun 17, 2010
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Originally Posted by mitosis .


Too heavy, current brakes work too well, difficulties with a quick wheel change..
One advantage of disc brakes is easier wheel changes.
 

tafi

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Jul 31, 2003
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I would disagree with that.

The disc caliper is a very tight space to aim at and every time you put a wheel in it sits slightly differently, leading to brake rubbing after a large proportion of wheel changes. A fast, high pressure change (in a race) will also lead to rotors fouling on or disturbing the pads on the way in, further increasing the likelihood of rubbing isues. Rim caliper brakes are far more forgiving as they offer a much wider opening and allow a much faster change, and the solidly mounted pads do not move.

At any rate, you can already send yourself over the handlebars or lock the rear wheel with a hard use of current caliper brakes. They are already more than powerful enough.
 

davereo

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Jun 17, 2010
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Originally Posted by tafi .

I would disagree with that.

The disc caliper is a very tight space to aim at and every time you put a wheel in it sits slightly differently, leading to brake rubbing after a large proportion of wheel changes. A fast, high pressure change (in a race) will also lead to rotors fouling on or disturbing the pads on the way in, further increasing the likelihood of rubbing isues. Rim caliper brakes are far more forgiving as they offer a much wider opening and allow a much faster change, and the solidly mounted pads do not move.

At any rate, you can already send yourself over the handlebars or lock the rear wheel with a hard use of current caliper brakes. They are already more than powerful enough.
Ive done it a thousand times (Huge exageration). The caliper is closer to the axle making it a lot easier to aim for hitting both at the same time. You also dont have to open up the disc caliper or close afterwards.

As far as using them on racing cycles I disagree.