How Stupid Is This Guy?



On 2 Mar 2004 17:26:23 -0800, gazzer wrote:

> He's not stupid at all. Bike helmets are a joke, and anyone who thinks they save lives is severly
> misguided. I wear one because it makes other riders nervous if I don't, and it keeps the sun off.

Its also nice for those low-hanging branches. Those would sting a bit.

--
-BB- To reply to me, drop the attitude (from my e-mail address, at least)
 
Pete Jones wrote:
> On Tue, 2 Mar 2004 16:41:15 +1300, "Westie" <[email protected]> blathered:
>
>>
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040301.wbike0301/BNStory/National/
>>
>> I can remember the law being introduced here maybe 20 years ago.
>>
>> We had all that hoo-hah about freedom of expression and the personal right to brain damage and
>> the like. Last time I heard the stats thrown about I seem to recall that that 20 kids a year are
>> spared serious brain injury or death because of helmets. And that's directly attributable to
>> helmets, apparently. Not just "child helmet wearers that survived accidents in general" figure.
>
>>Seems to be a small price to pay.
>
> It's hard to take lectures on safety from a native of the country with most dangerous roads in the
> Western world.

I fail to see how my comments could be construed to be a lecture.

While I sympathise for your injuries sustained while biking in New Zealand I fear that you are being
bitter and unfair. Particularly when the problems for cyclists are just as relevant in your part of
the world. A quick google also brings up cyclist versus traffic issues in just about every other
country in the world too.

Having said that, as you well know yourself from your personal experience, the "major highways" in
New Zealand are usually very basic two lane road often without shoulders that wind dangerously along
coastlines and mountainsides for hundreds of miles. Add to that the multitude of 18 wheeled trucks
(including ever present logging trucks) because of a lack of rail service to transport goods and you
have an environment hostile to bikers.

I've tried it once and I wouldn't be caught dead riding on our highways again. Try driving many 18
wheeled lorries at 80-110km/hour along a narrow tree-lined english country lane and you get an idea
of what our roads can be like. I am surprised that there are not more fatalities.

> Article in Christchurch Press, 30th Dec 2003 -
> -----------------------------
> A beer bottle thrown from a car has brought a Swiss couple's round-the-world cycling trip to a
> halt in New Zealand. The bottle crashed into the frame of Nadine Rist's bike....shards of glass
> cut into Rist's right leg, severing tendons near her ankle and below her knee.
<snip parts of article>

One idiot throwing a beer bottle and an extremely unfortunate piece of luck is not representative of
the majority of drivers. And nor is this behaviour isolated to New Zealand.

>Motorists often did not give any space around cyclists and were impatient and abusive.

Often there is no space to give on a narrow road. I would be and have been annoyed at having to
frequently reduce my speed to less than 25km/hour on a open road journey. Just this morning I
travelled two hours on the open road and there was a cycle tour with support bus ahead of me. On at
least 12 occasions I had to reduce speed to a crawl and wait for passing opportunities because it
was not safe to pass even a single cyclist cycling hard on the shoulder - let alone the idiots
cycling two abreast. A few times I don't mind, but it IS the open road with a speed limit of
100km/hour. You'd be annoyed at cyclists slowing traffic to 15mile/hour on the M5, wouldn't you?

> -----------------------------
>
> The Kiwi faith in helmets is quite touching. A Brazilian triathelete practising for a competition
> there was knocked off his bike by a laden timber wagon during my visit. The Christchurch Press
> reported (in all seriousness) that 'the truck rolled over his head, and it was only his helmet
> that saved him'. Class.

Well, all sarcasm aside, it _was_ a good thing he was wearing a helmet. I seem to recall As I said,
Narrow, windy road + logging truck = death. Rationally, a giant truck carrying logs cannot make room
or slow down and give way to a cyclist when they are travelling at 100km/hour on twisty two lane
road that just barely allows a car travelling in the other lane and the truck to pass each other.
There is simply no room for bike, truck and car, three abreast, on these roads.

> Let's be honest. The compulsory helmet legislation in New Zealand was not introduced after a cool,
> rational examination of the facts. It was enacted as a result of campaigning by a woman who's kid
> was knocked off and killed by a car. Oddly, she didn't campaign for restrictive motoring
> legislation, she just ensured that all cyclists, in all circumstances, were forced to wear
> helmets. What kind of perverse system of logic persecutes the victim? Cycling is not inherently
> dangerous, although being hit by a ton of metal doing 50 can smart a bit.

Cycling _is_ inherently dangerous when you try to share a narrow road with a ton (or fifteen) of
metal travelling at 100+km/hour. It's like saying that smearing yourself with catfood isn't
inherently dangerous. It is if you walk into a Lion's enclosure at the zoo with a dozen hungry
lions. I'm sorry, but New Zealand open roads and cyclists should not be mixed. The roading is not
capable of supporting the two different types of traffic simultaneously.

> If New Zealand (and Canada, and the US, and the UK) are serious about reducing cycling related
> injuries, maybe they should look at what countries like Sweden, Denmark and the Netherlands
> are doing.

--
Westie (Replace 'invalid' with 'yahoo' when replying.)
 
BB wrote: <snip>
> Its also nice for those low-hanging branches. Those would sting a bit.

Yeah, I punched a nice 3/4" hole into the top of my helmet a couple of days ago. Clipped a broken
pine tree branch on a 45km/h downhill. Damn near knocked me off the bike too.
--
Westie (Replace 'invalid' with 'yahoo' when replying.)
 
BB wrote:
> On 2 Mar 2004 17:26:23 -0800, gazzer wrote:
>
>
>>He's not stupid at all. Bike helmets are a joke, and anyone who thinks they save lives is severly
>>misguided. I wear one because it makes other riders nervous if I don't, and it keeps the sun off.
>
>
> Its also nice for those low-hanging branches. Those would sting a bit.
>

Oh yeah, it's the number one reason I wear a helmet. Not that you can see any low bridges here
but there are several on this trail. Even if I lean over far enough they catch my Camelbak
instead of my head.

http://www.2fortheroad.net/bent/bent_arrow.html

Greg
 
On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 05:47:08 GMT, G.T. wrote:
> BB wrote:
>>
>> Its also nice for those low-hanging branches. Those would sting a bit.
>
> Oh yeah, it's the number one reason I wear a helmet. Not that you can see any low bridges here but
> there are several on this trail. Even if I lean over far enough they catch my Camelbak instead of
> my head.
>
> http://www.2fortheroad.net/bent/bent_arrow.html

Looks like a likely spot. I've been nailed by a few low branches here:

http://bbauer.gomen.org/images/veggieTunnel.jpg

I'm never sure if they're hitting that hard, or if the styrofoam just makes if SOUND like they're
hitting hard!

--
-BB- To reply to me, drop the attitude (from my e-mail address, at least)
 
"G.T." <[email protected]> wrote:
> TBF wrote:
> > http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/...
>
> It's never stupid to fight for your freedom. Your point?

This is just another area where most people argue with each other sideways.

The pro helmet law side is arguing "helmets are good!"

The anti helmet law side is arguing "keeping government out of peoples' business is good!"

These two groups of people, who believe in related-but-different issues, fight tooth and nail, even
though they don't necessarily disagree. Some of the people who don't like helmet laws, still think
helmets are a pretty good idea, at a personal level.

There are a number of similar issues out there. They tend to be among the most contentious social
battles we fight in this (f'd up) modern world.

Drugs are bad, therefore government should prohibit the use of *some* drugs and make the problem
worse by creating a heinous black market, even though there's no hope that this strategy will ever
eradicate drug use.

Anybody who disagrees with this assertion is PRO-DRUG and therefore EVIL, so we don't have any
public discourse about legalization or de-criminalization. And we continue to spend billions of
dollars to catch the violators of drug laws who are dumb enough or unlucky enough to be catch-able,
and to warehouse them in prisons. The kingpins make the trade a career.

Abortion is bad, therefore government should prohibit legal abortions and make the problem worse by
creating a heinous black market, even though there's no hope that this strategy will ever eradicate
the practice of terminating unwanted pregnancies.

Anybody who disagrees with this assertion is PRO-ABORTION and therefore EVIL. Currently, since Roe v
Wade made abortion legal in the US, there is a tremendous effort to re-establish restrictions in
this area. The public discourse on this matter is completely ineffective. Nobody listens to anybody
with who they disagree. But they are arguing different points. Sideways.

The helmet law argument is the same way. The pro-law side tends to be arguing about the merits of
helmet use, where the anti-law side is arguing about the role of government in society.

If the past is any indication, this thread will blow up, with people on both sides arguing,
sometimes quite eloquently, but about *different* *things*.

For the record, I agree with G.T. "It's never stupid to fight for your freedom."

But I wear a helmet religiously. Go figger.
--
Tom Purvis - http://www.arkansasvalley.net/tpurvis/
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so
certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."-Bertrand Russell
 
gazzer wrote:

> "TBF" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>
>>http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040301.wbike0301/BNStory/National/
>
>
> He's not stupid at all. Bike helmets are a joke, and anyone who thinks they save lives is severly
> misguided. I wear one because it makes other riders nervous if I don't, and it keeps the sun off.
> A helmet law is a minor inconvenience that certainly wouldn't stop me from riding, but it does
> indicate a stopgap attitude towards road safety for cyclists.
>
> g
Yeah godamnit good science be damned!!
 
Tom Purvis wrote:

> "G.T." <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>TBF wrote:
>>
>>>http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/...
>>
>>It's never stupid to fight for your freedom. Your point?
>
>
> This is just another area where most people argue with each other sideways.
>
> The pro helmet law side is arguing "helmets are good!"
>
> The anti helmet law side is arguing "keeping government out of peoples' business is good!"
>
> These two groups of people, who believe in related-but-different issues, fight tooth and nail,
> even though they don't necessarily disagree. Some of the people who don't like helmet laws, still
> think helmets are a pretty good idea, at a personal level.
>
> There are a number of similar issues out there. They tend to be among the most contentious social
> battles we fight in this (f'd up) modern world.
>
> Drugs are bad, therefore government should prohibit the use of *some* drugs and make the problem
> worse by creating a heinous black market, even though there's no hope that this strategy will ever
> eradicate drug use.
>
> Anybody who disagrees with this assertion is PRO-DRUG and therefore EVIL, so we don't have any
> public discourse about legalization or de-criminalization. And we continue to spend billions of
> dollars to catch the violators of drug laws who are dumb enough or unlucky enough to be catch-
> able, and to warehouse them in prisons. The kingpins make the trade a career.
>
> Abortion is bad, therefore government should prohibit legal abortions and make the problem worse
> by creating a heinous black market, even though there's no hope that this strategy will ever
> eradicate the practice of terminating unwanted pregnancies.
>
> Anybody who disagrees with this assertion is PRO-ABORTION and therefore EVIL. Currently, since Roe
> v Wade made abortion legal in the US, there is a tremendous effort to re-establish restrictions in
> this area. The public discourse on this matter is completely ineffective. Nobody listens to
> anybody with who they disagree. But they are arguing different points. Sideways.
>
> The helmet law argument is the same way. The pro-law side tends to be arguing about the merits of
> helmet use, where the anti-law side is arguing about the role of government in society.
>
> If the past is any indication, this thread will blow up, with people on both sides arguing,
> sometimes quite eloquently, but about *different* *things*.
>
> For the record, I agree with G.T. "It's never stupid to fight for your freedom."
>
> But I wear a helmet religiously. Go figger.
> --
> Tom Purvis - http://www.arkansasvalley.net/tpurvis/ "The whole problem with the world is that
> fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."-
> Bertrand Russell

So you gonna run against DeLuca?
 
"Tom Purvis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "G.T." <[email protected]> wrote:
> > TBF wrote:
> > > http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/...
> >
> > It's never stupid to fight for your freedom. Your point?
>
> This is just another area where most people argue with each other sideways.
>
> The pro helmet law side is arguing "helmets are good!"
>
> The anti helmet law side is arguing "keeping government out of peoples' business is good!"
>

No. The anti-helmet law side argues that helmets are worthless at protecting lives. It's better to
educate the cycling public than spread a false sense of security by legislation that only benefits
the helmet companies. I have no problem with the government creating laws that truly do increase
public safety.

Greg
 
Stephen Baker stood on a soapbox and shouted to anyone who would
listen :
> Team_bfd wrote:
>
> <big snip>
>
>> since Roe v Wade
>
> <more snippage>
>
> Totally OT, but reminds me of a (probably old) joke. When a kid was asked what the Roe vs. Wade
> decision was, he replied "Wasn't that the decision Washington made just before crossing the
> Delaware?"
>
> Had to smile.
>
> Steve

http://duckboy.com/postcards.htm check out the second item down, Roe Vs Wade

ps
 
On 03 Mar 2004 16:31:17 GMT, Stephen Baker wrote:

> Totally OT, but reminds me of a (probably old) joke. When a kid was asked what the Roe vs. Wade
> decision was, he replied "Wasn't that the decision Washington made just before crossing the
> Delaware?"

Leave it to Baker to post this in response to a long discourse. I liked it, though! ;-)

--
-BB- To reply to me, drop the attitude (from my e-mail address, at least)
 
On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 16:47:04 GMT, G.T. wrote:
> "Tom Purvis" <[email protected]> wrote in message

>> The pro helmet law side is arguing "helmets are good!"
>>
>> The anti helmet law side is arguing "keeping government out of peoples' business is good!"
>
> No. The anti-helmet law side argues that helmets are worthless at protecting lives.

Exactly. The arugument typically goes like this:

"Its stupid not to wear a helmet; it'll save your life!"

"It might save your scalp, but it won't save your life."

"I crashed one time, and I'm still alive, so it must have saved my life!"

...and it continues to digress from there.

> It's better to educate the cycling public than spread a false sense of security by legislation
> that only benefits the helmet companies. I have no problem with the government creating laws that
> truly do increase public safety.

Any country that originated on the basis of freedom from government control should think very
seriously about laws to protect a person from himself(/herself).

--
-BB- To reply to me, drop the attitude (from my e-mail address, at least)
 
Originally posted by Gazzer

He's not stupid at all. Bike helmets are a joke, and anyone who thinks they save lives is severly
misguided.

Hmmmmm. A helmet saved my life once. Does that make me misguided?
 
On 03 Mar 2004 22:16:21 GMT, Stephen Baker wrote:
> BB says:
>
>>Leave it to Baker to post this in response to a long discourse.
>
> I'm not sure whether to be offended or not. But I'll give you the benfit of the doubt since my
> brain hurts today. Cutting frames in 3D for a 40' boat will do that to you.

Nah, I was just messing with ya. Hence the smilie at the end.

--
-BB- To reply to me, drop the attitude (from my e-mail address, at least)
 
"G.T." <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Tom Purvis" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > This is just another area where most people argue with each other sideways.
> >
> > The pro helmet law side is arguing "helmets are good!"
> >
> > The anti helmet law side is arguing "keeping government out of peoples' business is good!"
>
> No. The anti-helmet law side argues that helmets are worthless at protecting lives. It's better to
> educate the cycling public than spread a false sense of security by legislation that only benefits
> the helmet companies. I have no problem with the government creating laws that truly do increase
> public safety.

OK, you caught me committing an error of logic. I generalized about the opinions of all of those who
oppose helmet laws. You're correct, I'm wrong. I have heard people arguing against helmet laws
because, "helmets are worthless".

But guess what? You did the same thing. You're wrong too.

I oppose helmet laws. I don't think helmets are worthless at protecting lives. You speaking
for me now?

I agree that helmets can be guilty of spreading a false sense of security. They don't protect
absolutely. You can be wearing a helmet and still get really messed up, including your head. I speak
from personal experience. But I've also been in a number of crashes where I'm *quite* sure that the
helmet reduced my injury severity. (In other words, I've crashed *too* *many* *times*--maybe that's
what's got my undies in a bunch ;)

Helmets are better than worthless. IMHO.

Do you also disagree with my assertion that people argue sideways about issues like this?
--
Tom "currently listing to NPR story about the Mekons" Purvis
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so
certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."-Bertrand Russell
 
Keep in mind that Canada still has remnants of publicly funded medicare. The guys who refuses to
wear a helmet there and gets his hat-rack cracked might sit in an ICU or worse for a long time while
the helmet-heads pay the ticket.

When your decisions negatively impact others in your society (not just emotionally impact on your
immediate family), then the argument of personal rights and personal choice above all else starts to
diminish. Personally, if I had to pay an extra X% tax rate to support other peoples rights to be
injured, I'd be pretty ****** about it.

Just part of my personal conspiracy theory. Discuss.

> I remember years ago when the helmet lawas came out in Canada. I had just moved here from the U.S.
> for school. People argued that they should have
the
> right to choose whether or not to wear a bucket when operating a
motorcycle.
 
Shawn Curry <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<pEn1c.172389$uV3.730938@attbi_s51>...
> gazzer wrote:
>
> > "TBF" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:<[email protected]>...
> >
> >>http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040301.wbike0301/BNStory/National/
> >
> >
> > He's not stupid at all. Bike helmets are a joke, and anyone who thinks they save lives is
> > severly misguided. I wear one because it makes other riders nervous if I don't, and it keeps the
> > sun off. A helmet law is a minor inconvenience that certainly wouldn't stop me from riding, but
> > it does indicate a stopgap attitude towards road safety for cyclists.
> >
> > g
> Yeah godamnit good science be damned!!

Do some reading on helmet testing and then tell me how putting a peice of styrofoam covered in large
holes and held on with velcro and double sided tape on your head is going to save your life.

g
 
gazzer wrote:
> Shawn Curry <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<pEn1c.172389$uV3.730938@attbi_s51>...
>>>He's not stupid at all. Bike helmets are a joke, and anyone who thinks they save lives is severly
>>>misguided. I wear one because it makes other riders nervous if I don't, and it keeps the sun off.
>>>A helmet law is a minor inconvenience that certainly wouldn't stop me from riding, but it does
>>>indicate a stopgap attitude towards road safety for cyclists.
>>>
>>>g
>>
>>Yeah godamnit good science be damned!!
>
>
> Do some reading on helmet testing and then tell me how putting a peice of styrofoam covered in
> large holes and held on with velcro and double sided tape on your head is going to save your life.
>
> g

OK, I'll bite. I have done a lot of reading. On the web, in medical journals (hazard of a wife who's
a physician), newspapers, and bike and motorcycle rags. Heregoes... Bicycle helmets are designed to
decrease the stress on your brain to a survivable level in an OTB (over the bars) crash. If you
choose to drop your mortal coil from about five feet head first onto a hard surface
e.g. concrete or flat rock, sans helmet, you will likely die. Such an impact generates sufficient
force that blood vessels in and around your brain tear. The bleeding in your skull kills you
(subdural hematoma). This shouldn't come as a big surprise to you or anyone else. Classic
example is Joaquim Agostinho, pro roadie from Portugal. A dog ran into the middle of the course
near the end of a race. He hit it and went OTB, hitting his head. Went to recover in his hotel
room and never woke up. The styrofoam beer cooler helmet is meant to absorb this kind of
impact, so that you're walking away worried about your trashed bike and *****ing about your
road rash. That's it. No 40 mph into a tree or curb. No f@cked huck from 15 feet. No SUV or 18
wheeler running over your head (don't know about Bill Wheeler running over your head ;-) If
that's the angle you're arguing from, that some people claim it will protect you regardless,
save it. Their idiots and deluding themselves. If OTOH, you believe helmets have no redeeming
crash protection value to anyone... You've no doubt read some of the copious number of studies
declaring that helmet use decreases the severity/number of head trauma in bicycle accidents.
The literature is lousy with them. Obviously there are gaping holes nay Yawning Chasms in the
data and its interpretation. And yet, I haven't recognized them. Nor have most of those out
there looking for this kind of information. Please inform us all. Yes I'm familiar with the
publication bias against negative results. Who wants to publish a paper that says "Hey Look,
Nothing Happened!" However, this is perceived as important by lots of mommies and daddies all
over the world. They would want to know if that helmet really isn't protecting their future
Harvard grads assets. So surely, such papers must be out there saying "Bike Helmets Won't Save
You in an OTB Crash". How's that for a line to be taken out of context ;-) And don't bother
'splaining it like I'm a five year old. I've got a good techie sort of college degree and
eleven years of biotech research experience. Go ahead show me how the statistical analysis is
flawed. Tell us how they used the wrong control group, or outcome in their analysis. Explain
why they got the results 180 degrees backward. To paraphrase Cuba Gooding Jr. in Jerry McGuire
"Show me da data!"

Shawn
 
Tom Purvis wrote:
> "G.T." <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>"Tom Purvis" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>This is just another area where most people argue with each other sideways.
>>>
>>>The pro helmet law side is arguing "helmets are good!"
>>>
>>>The anti helmet law side is arguing "keeping government out of peoples' business is good!"
>>
>>No. The anti-helmet law side argues that helmets are worthless at protecting lives. It's better to
>>educate the cycling public than spread a false sense of security by legislation that only benefits
>>the helmet companies. I have no problem with the government creating laws that truly do increase
>>public safety.
>
>
> OK, you caught me committing an error of logic. I generalized about the opinions of all of those
> who oppose helmet laws. You're correct, I'm wrong. I have heard people arguing against helmet laws
> because, "helmets are worthless".
>
> But guess what? You did the same thing. You're wrong too.
>

Ok, I'll admit that I'm wrong due to the following:

> I oppose helmet laws. I don't think helmets are worthless at protecting lives. You speaking
> for me now?

You're right, I can't speak for you because we disagree on the worth of helmets. You oppose helmet
laws for much different reasons than I do.

>
> I agree that helmets can be guilty of spreading a false sense of security. They don't protect
> absolutely. You can be wearing a helmet and still get really messed up, including your head. I
> speak from personal experience. But I've also been in a number of crashes where I'm *quite* sure
> that the helmet reduced my injury severity. (In other words, I've crashed *too* *many* *times*--
> maybe that's what's got my undies in a bunch ;)
>
> Helmets are better than worthless. IMHO.

I agree that they're better than worthless. They ARE worthless at saving lives, though. Great for
preventing nasty gashes in my head when I don't duck far enough while going under a low bridge, but
worthless at preventing major brain trauma.

>
> Do you also disagree with my assertion that people argue sideways about issues like this?
>

I'm not sure.

Greg
 
On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 15:33:53 -0800, Gwood wrote:
> Keep in mind that Canada still has remnants of publicly funded medicare.

Certainly a valid point for Canada, and any place where health care is government-run. The more
common model in the US is that HMOs could potentially list helmet use as a precursor to covering
emergency room visits for bicycle-related head injuries. It wouldn't surprise me if they already
have that, as the other typical model for HMOs is that they don't go to much effort to inform
customers of what isn't covered.

--
-BB- To reply to me, drop the attitude (from my e-mail address, at least)