How tight should hub skewers be?

[Stephen Montgomery]

I have Rolf Vector Comp wheelsets on my bike. The rear wheel will
shift out of alignment under hard pedaling, such as cranking up a hill
while standing on the pedals. To combat this I've had to clamp the
skewers so tight that I sometimes have a very hard time loosening them
to remove the wheel.

I recently had the bike serviced but forgot to mention it to the shop.
He put the wheels back on but didn't clamp down like I had them. He
didn't mention that he had a hard time loosening them to remove the
wheel so didn't give it a lot of thought at the time, but my thinking
right now is he didn't think it was an issue.

How can I keep the wheel aligned without having to tighten the skewers
so much? Also, what damage is caused by tightening them so much?

Thanks.

 

[[email protected]]

Stephen Montgomery writes:

> I have Rolf Vector Comp wheels on my bike. The rear wheel will
> shift out of alignment under hard pedaling, such as cranking up a
> hill while standing on the pedals. To combat this I've had to clamp
> the skewers so tight that I sometimes have a very hard time
> loosening them to remove the wheel.

What sort of antique frame are you riding? With vertical dropouts
that I suppose every derailleur bicycle should have, there is no excuse
for having to tighten a QR until you can smell onions and your eyes
begin to water.

> I recently had the bike serviced but forgot to mention it to the shop.
> He put the wheels back on but didn't clamp down like I had them. He
> didn't mention that he had a hard time loosening them to remove the
> wheel so didn't give it a lot of thought at the time, but my thinking
> right now is he didn't think it was an issue.

There is another problem with an extra tight QR and you can test for
that by seeing whether the wheel swings freely about it's heaviest
spot when the rear of the bicycle is held off the ground (chain not
engaged to rule out freewheel drag). When tightening the lever, the
elastic deformation is twofold. The skewer stretches and the axle
compresses, an effect that can bind up the ball bearings and cause
them or the bearing races to fail.

> How can I keep the wheel aligned without having to tighten the
> skewers so much? Also, what damage is caused by tightening them so
> much?

The skewer could break at the threads and the QR bearing surface begin
to weld. In fact, they QR is probably already gouged. Do you have
grease on the thrust surface of the mechanism?

Jobst Brandt

 

[[email protected]]

Unfortunately through trial and error I have discovered there are many
non Shimano, non Campy skewers that perform as the original poster
describes.

 

[[email protected]]

Stephen Montgomery wrote:
> I have Rolf Vector Comp wheelsets on my bike. The rear wheel will
> shift out of alignment under hard pedaling, such as cranking up a hill
> while standing on the pedals. To combat this I've had to clamp the
> skewers so tight that I sometimes have a very hard time loosening them
> to remove the wheel.
>
> I recently had the bike serviced but forgot to mention it to the shop.
> He put the wheels back on but didn't clamp down like I had them. He
> didn't mention that he had a hard time loosening them to remove the
> wheel so didn't give it a lot of thought at the time, but my thinking
> right now is he didn't think it was an issue.
>
> How can I keep the wheel aligned without having to tighten the skewers
> so much? Also, what damage is caused by tightening them so much?

Read this:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/skewers.html

Open cam skewers, skewers without serrations, and titanium
skewers cause problems. The severity of the problems depends
on your equipment (like whether you have horizontal or vertical
dropouts), which is the reason that some people get by with
chintzy skewers. Most problems can be cured by getting a decent
Shimano QR skewer - even the cheapest one from a parts bin.
Or Campy if your bike needs the extra bling.

 

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per [email protected]:
>There is another problem with an extra tight QR and ..

Has anybody said how tight is too tight and how to determine same?

I haven't seen that in the thread... but maybe my news provider isn't getting
all the posts.
--
PeteCresswell

 

[Wheels by BFWG]

"Stephen Montgomery" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I have Rolf Vector Comp wheelsets on my bike. The rear wheel will
> shift out of alignment under hard pedaling, such as cranking up a hill
> while standing on the pedals. To combat this I've had to clamp the
> skewers so tight that I sometimes have a very hard time loosening them
> to remove the wheel.
>
> I recently had the bike serviced but forgot to mention it to the shop.
> He put the wheels back on but didn't clamp down like I had them. He
> didn't mention that he had a hard time loosening them to remove the
> wheel so didn't give it a lot of thought at the time, but my thinking
> right now is he didn't think it was an issue.
>
> How can I keep the wheel aligned without having to tighten the skewers
> so much? Also, what damage is caused by tightening them so much?
>
> Thanks.

I'd bet you have crappy, nylon bushing type QRs. . . dump these and get a
good set with internal, METAL cam. Shimano and Campagnolo are always good,
Mavic's are good but can be expensive. I've just discovered an FSA skewer
set called Scatto that is modeled after old Simplex style QRs (like high-end
Mavic) that is nicely made and finished, clamps very well with normal hand
strength and costs about $50. . .

 

[Fred]

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Stephen Montgomery writes:
>
>> I have Rolf Vector Comp wheels on my bike. The rear wheel will
>> shift out of alignment under hard pedaling, such as cranking up a
>> hill while standing on the pedals. To combat this I've had to clamp
>> the skewers so tight that I sometimes have a very hard time
>> loosening them to remove the wheel.
>
> What sort of antique frame are you riding? With vertical dropouts
> that I suppose every derailleur bicycle should have, there is no excuse
> for having to tighten a QR until you can smell onions and your eyes
> begin to water.
>

You're picking on the guys frame? Chances are much more likely that he has
a modern POS skewer whereas there is a good chance that if he is riding
around on an older frame with horizontal dropouts that he has a kick butt
frame.

 

[RonSonic]

On 12 Dec 2005 12:40:31 -0800, [email protected] wrote:

>Unfortunately through trial and error I have discovered there are many
>non Shimano, non Campy skewers that perform as the original poster
>describes.

Can anyone explain what's up with that? The Campy and Shimano skewers work fine,
better than all the rest, but nobody else seems to make that typed of enclosed
cam skewer. Why not?

Ron

 

[Phil Holman]

"Stephen Montgomery" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I have Rolf Vector Comp wheelsets on my bike. The rear wheel will
> shift out of alignment under hard pedaling, such as cranking up a hill
> while standing on the pedals. To combat this I've had to clamp the
> skewers so tight that I sometimes have a very hard time loosening them
> to remove the wheel.
>
> I recently had the bike serviced but forgot to mention it to the shop.
> He put the wheels back on but didn't clamp down like I had them. He
> didn't mention that he had a hard time loosening them to remove the
> wheel so didn't give it a lot of thought at the time, but my thinking
> right now is he didn't think it was an issue.
>
> How can I keep the wheel aligned without having to tighten the skewers
> so much? Also, what damage is caused by tightening them so much?
>

I find this hard to believe without the clamping force acting on
something other than the dropouts. How close are the axle ends to the
outer face of the dropouts?

Phil H

 

[Phil, Squid-in-Training]

RonSonic wrote:
> On 12 Dec 2005 12:40:31 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
>
>> Unfortunately through trial and error I have discovered there are
>> many non Shimano, non Campy skewers that perform as the original
>> poster describes.
>
> Can anyone explain what's up with that? The Campy and Shimano skewers
> work fine, better than all the rest, but nobody else seems to make
> that typed of enclosed cam skewer. Why not?

Because they are "patently" offensive! Bahahahha!

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

 

[Phil, Squid-in-Training]

(PeteCresswell) wrote:
> Per [email protected]:
>> There is another problem with an extra tight QR and ..
>
> Has anybody said how tight is too tight and how to determine same?

I tell customers that it should leave an imprint on the palm after clamping
down.
--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

 

[Matt O'Toole]

On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 20:27:45 -0500, Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:

> RonSonic wrote:

>> On 12 Dec 2005 12:40:31 -0800, [email protected] wrote:

>>> Unfortunately through trial and error I have discovered there are many
>>> non Shimano, non Campy skewers that perform as the original poster
>>> describes.

>> Can anyone explain what's up with that? The Campy and Shimano skewers
>> work fine, better than all the rest, but nobody else seems to make that
>> typed of enclosed cam skewer. Why not?

> Because they are "patently" offensive! Bahahahha!

I think the real reason is they're more expensive to make, and a few
grams heavier, which apparently matters a lot to some people.

As usual, Sheldon Brown explains it all:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/skewers.html

BTW, Jobst is right about horizontal dropouts -- unless you need them for
a fixed gear or gear hub bike, vertical dropouts are superior.

Whether to lubricate your external cams is a good question. It does
help, until they get dirty, and then they're worse.

If you're having slippage problems, get some decent Shimano or Campy
skewers.

Matt O.

 

[David L. Johnson]

On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 17:00:03 -0800, Phil Holman wrote:

>
> "Stephen Montgomery" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>I have Rolf Vector Comp wheelsets on my bike. The rear wheel will
>> shift out of alignment under hard pedaling, such as cranking up a hill
>> while standing on the pedals. To combat this I've had to clamp the
>> skewers so tight that I sometimes have a very hard time loosening them
>> to remove the wheel.
>>
>> I recently had the bike serviced but forgot to mention it to the shop.
>> He put the wheels back on but didn't clamp down like I had them. He
>> didn't mention that he had a hard time loosening them to remove the
>> wheel so didn't give it a lot of thought at the time, but my thinking
>> right now is he didn't think it was an issue.
>>
>> How can I keep the wheel aligned without having to tighten the skewers
>> so much? Also, what damage is caused by tightening them so much?
>>
>
> I find this hard to believe without the clamping force acting on
> something other than the dropouts. How close are the axle ends to the
> outer face of the dropouts?

It's either that, or maybe the Rolf's don't have a gnurled end on the QR.
They should, though.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Some people used to claim that, if enough monkeys sat in front
_`\(,_ | of enough typewriters and typed long enough, eventually one of
(_)/ (_) | them would reproduce the collected works of Shakespeare. The
internet has proven this not to be the case.

 

[David L. Johnson]

On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 17:00:03 -0800, Phil Holman wrote:

>
> "Stephen Montgomery" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>I have Rolf Vector Comp wheelsets on my bike. The rear wheel will
>> shift out of alignment under hard pedaling, such as cranking up a hill
>> while standing on the pedals. To combat this I've had to clamp the
>> skewers so tight that I sometimes have a very hard time loosening them
>> to remove the wheel.
>>
>> I recently had the bike serviced but forgot to mention it to the shop.
>> He put the wheels back on but didn't clamp down like I had them. He
>> didn't mention that he had a hard time loosening them to remove the
>> wheel so didn't give it a lot of thought at the time, but my thinking
>> right now is he didn't think it was an issue.
>>
>> How can I keep the wheel aligned without having to tighten the skewers
>> so much? Also, what damage is caused by tightening them so much?
>>
>
> I find this hard to believe without the clamping force acting on
> something other than the dropouts. How close are the axle ends to the
> outer face of the dropouts?

It's either that, or maybe the Rolf's don't have a gnurled end on the QR.
They should, though.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Some people used to claim that, if enough monkeys sat in front
_`\(,_ | of enough typewriters and typed long enough, eventually one of
(_)/ (_) | them would reproduce the collected works of Shakespeare. The
internet has proven this not to be the case.

 

[David L. Johnson]

On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 20:36:38 +0000, jobst.brandt wrote:

> What sort of antique frame are you riding? With vertical dropouts
> that I suppose every derailleur bicycle should have, there is no excuse
> for having to tighten a QR until you can smell onions and your eyes
> begin to water.

On the other hand, a tight-enough skewer for vertical dropouts is tight
enough for horizontal ones. A wheel can move enough inside vertical
dropouts to be a problem if it is not tightened down enough, just as with
horizontal ones.

The one wheel I had come out of the frame because of a too-loose QR was a
front wheel (during a crash), which has always been a "vertical dropout".

> There is another problem with an extra tight QR and you can test for
> that by seeing whether the wheel swings freely about it's heaviest spot
> when the rear of the bicycle is held off the ground (chain not engaged
> to rule out freewheel drag).

IMO this is a problem with improperly adjusted bearings rather than the
QR.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | It is probably that television drama of high caliber and
_`\(,_ | produced by first-rate artists will materially raise the level
(_)/ (_) | of dramatic taste in the nation. -- David Sarnoff, 1939

 

[David L. Johnson]

On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 20:36:38 +0000, jobst.brandt wrote:

> What sort of antique frame are you riding? With vertical dropouts
> that I suppose every derailleur bicycle should have, there is no excuse
> for having to tighten a QR until you can smell onions and your eyes
> begin to water.

On the other hand, a tight-enough skewer for vertical dropouts is tight
enough for horizontal ones. A wheel can move enough inside vertical
dropouts to be a problem if it is not tightened down enough, just as with
horizontal ones.

The one wheel I had come out of the frame because of a too-loose QR was a
front wheel (during a crash), which has always been a "vertical dropout".

> There is another problem with an extra tight QR and you can test for
> that by seeing whether the wheel swings freely about it's heaviest spot
> when the rear of the bicycle is held off the ground (chain not engaged
> to rule out freewheel drag).

IMO this is a problem with improperly adjusted bearings rather than the
QR.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | It is probably that television drama of high caliber and
_`\(,_ | produced by first-rate artists will materially raise the level
(_)/ (_) | of dramatic taste in the nation. -- David Sarnoff, 1939

 

[Simon Cooper]

"RonSonic" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 12 Dec 2005 12:40:31 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
>
> >Unfortunately through trial and error I have discovered there are many
> >non Shimano, non Campy skewers that perform as the original poster
> >describes.
>
> Can anyone explain what's up with that? The Campy and Shimano skewers work
fine,
> better than all the rest, but nobody else seems to make that typed of
enclosed
> cam skewer. Why not?
>

I have plenty of other skewers downstairs, of the "right" design, the only
brand I know without going down to look is Sachs-Maillard, but I know
they're a diverse bunch. They're all heavier (95g or so vs 83g rear -
woohoo) than the Shimano ones I have, so I'm not using many of them...

 

[[email protected]]

Phil Lee writes:

>>> There is another problem with an extra tight QR and ..

>> Has anybody said how tight is too tight and how to determine same?

> I tell customers that it should leave an imprint on the palm after
> clamping down.

That is not a reasonably precise measure because it depends on the
amount of callous on the palm of the hand and how slowly the pressure
is applied, and even among those variables there is great difference
in individual flesh in the hand.

That this is not easily quantified is also an indication that the use
of QR's on the average rider's bicycle, especially younger children,
is not a good idea.

The best measure of closure force is to have a skilled rider open and
close a QR properly and have the new rider try it with that
adjustment. That's the way all the riders I started with did it and
so did my sons. Non of them ever read a manual and had numerical
values to guide them.

Jobst Brandt

 

[[email protected]]

David L. Johnson writes:

>> What sort of antique frame are you riding? With vertical dropouts
>> that I suppose every derailleur bicycle should have, there is no
>> excuse for having to tighten a QR until you can smell onions and
>> your eyes begin to water.

> On the other hand, a tight-enough skewer for vertical dropouts is
> tight enough for horizontal ones. A wheel can move enough inside
> vertical dropouts to be a problem if it is not tightened down
> enough, just as with horizontal ones.

I don't know what sort of vertical dropouts you have in mind but mine
work just fine with the QR open... until I make a jump.

> The one wheel I had come out of the frame because of a too-loose QR
> was a front wheel (during a crash), which has always been a
> "vertical dropout".

>> There is another problem with an extra tight QR and you can test
>> for that by seeing whether the wheel swings freely about it's
>> heaviest spot when the rear of the bicycle is held off the ground
>> (chain not engaged to rule out freewheel drag).

> IMO this is a problem with improperly adjusted bearings rather than the
> QR.

Oh? Bearing adjustment must be synchronized with QR closure force.
They go hand in hand. Most people adjust their wheel bearings on the
"bench" so that they run smoothly without rattle and then put them in
the bicycle where the closure force makes them bind. That is why the
two should not be viewed as independent adjustments.

Jobst Brandt

 

[Phil, Squid-in-Training]

[email protected] wrote:
> Phil Lee writes:
>
>>>> There is another problem with an extra tight QR and ..
>
>>> Has anybody said how tight is too tight and how to determine same?
>
>> I tell customers that it should leave an imprint on the palm after
>> clamping down.
>
> That is not a reasonably precise measure because it depends on the
> amount of callous on the palm of the hand and how slowly the pressure
> is applied, and even among those variables there is great difference
> in individual flesh in the hand.

How slowly the pressure is applied? If there required force/pressure is not
applied, the lever won't close.

> That this is not easily quantified is also an indication that the use
> of QR's on the average rider's bicycle, especially younger children,
> is not a good idea.

All of our children's bikes with 20" wheels and smaller have bolt-on wheels.

> The best measure of closure force is to have a skilled rider open and
> close a QR properly and have the new rider try it with that
> adjustment. That's the way all the riders I started with did it and
> so did my sons. Non of them ever read a manual and had numerical
> values to guide them.

Good point. I forgot to precede my comment with "After the lever gets tight
at 90 degrees when closing the lever..." This usually happens when a new
bike is sold. I confess that I don't usually have the customer perform the
task in front of me; I'll have them do it from now on.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training