How tight should hub skewers be?

[Phil, Squid-in-Training]

Ron Ruff wrote:
> (PeteCresswell) wrote:
>> Per [email protected]:
>>> I don't know what sort of vertical dropouts you have in mind but
>>> mine work just fine with the QR open... until I make a jump.
>>
>> Given the front wheel's tolerance for a loose skewer - by virtue of
>> the lawyer lips - and the lack of pedaling torque, could one say
>> that the right tightness for that skewer is just tight enough so
>> that it doesn't come loose on it's own?
>
> Does anybody here actually leave the lawyer lips on their forks? I
> don't like them, and they are easy enough to remove. Filling them off
> is just another "chore" to prep a new bike...

Yes. Some of us with suspension forks using disc brakes like the added
band-aid safety measure of the lawyer lips. Some of us leave it for resale
value.
--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

 

[Donald Gillies]

Stephen Montgomery <[email protected]> writes:

>How can I keep the wheel aligned without having to tighten the skewers
>so much? Also, what damage is caused by tightening them so much?

The problem with hyper-tightening a QR is that you may have trouble
with excess bearing wear if you don't tighten the skewer consistently
every time you apply it.

I use the following rule to tighten QR's:

(a) Place the QR paddle so it sticks out 90 degrees, in the same
direction as the axle.
(b) Tighten the wingnut on the other side until snug but not "tight".
(c) Close the QR skewer.

I use the following procedure to adjust pre-load on my hubs :

(a) get out the dropouts I bought from richard sachs.
(b) Put the dropouts on the axle and tighten according to my normal
tightening procedure (see above).
(c) Adjust bearing cones so that bearings are snug but not tight with
this amount of pre-load.

If these methods won't get your wheel wheel tight enough, then perhaps
you should consider buying a REAL QR skewer. Joytech makes some very
nice chromed steel ones that work great on all bikes made since about
1950 (yeah, jobst, they are "old tech"). They are about $5 - $7 each
at www.loosescrews.com or www.bikepartsetc.com. I use them on my
tandem, to climb 10% grade hills. You cannot go wrong with a steel QR
skewer of this type.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

 

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per Ron Ruff:
>Does anybody here actually leave the lawyer lips on their forks? I
>don't like them, and they are easy enough to remove. Filling them off
>is just another "chore" to prep a new bike...

Loss of a front wheel at almost any speed looks to me like one of those truly
catastrophic events.

I wouldn't even *think* of taking them off - and now that I know the issues
*and* have found my QR loose once already I'd buy through-axle if I had it do
again and there was an acceptable fork available.

--
PeteCresswell

 

[[email protected]]

Stephen Montgomery wrote:
> I have Rolf Vector Comp wheelsets on my bike. The rear wheel will
> shift out of alignment under hard pedaling, such as cranking up a hill
> while standing on the pedals. To combat this I've had to clamp the
> skewers so tight that I sometimes have a very hard time loosening them
> to remove the wheel.
>
> How can I keep the wheel aligned without having to tighten the skewers
> so much? Also, what damage is caused by tightening them so much?

The fact that you have Rolf Vector Comp wheels suggests two
possibilities.

1. Early Vector Comp hubs have an all-aluminum axle nut on the right
side. These were known to slip. Later hubs have a steel nut. They
slipped less. I think it might be worth while to track down the steel
part and install it on your hub. The Vector Comp axle is threaded M10x1
just like most modern hubs, so it might be possible to kludge a steel
nut from a different hub (not Rolf / DTSwiss) onto yours, but hub
spacing and seal fit might be an issue.

2. Early Rolf skewers have all-aluminum nuts. These were known to slip.
Later ROlf skewers have steel rings. They slipped less. Switching the
skewer nut is dead easy and should make a big difference.

Hope this helps!

BTW - Early Lemond steel frames had horizontal dropouts. These were
known to slip. Later Lemond steel frames had vertical dropouts. These
don't slip... ;-)

 

[A Muzi]

>>On 12 Dec 2005 12:40:31 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
>>>Unfortunately through trial and error I have discovered there are many
>>>non Shimano, non Campy skewers that perform as the original poster
>>>describes.

> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>>Can anyone explain what's up with that? The Campy and Shimano skewers work
> fine,
>>better than all the rest, but nobody else seems to make that typed of enclosed
>>cam skewer. Why not?

Alex Rodriguez wrote:
> Cost.

I'm not so sure. Suzue recently closed but made that model
at a great price for years. Several 'generic' suppliers, KK,
Sovos, Quando, etc put functional steel skewers in some
fairly inexpensive hubs for commodity wheels. If there is a
cost difference it can't be much in volume. Could it be that
$79 BSO designers feel an aluminum skewer has a
(value-added) fashionable look?

The home trainer manufacturers ( CycleOps, Minoura, etc)
include a steel skewer with their products because so few
bikes have decent skewers now. Above the other discussions
here, the darned things can't support a bike in a trainer.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[A Muzi]

>>>On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 22:04:06 -0500, Matt O'Toole
>>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>BTW, Jobst is right about horizontal dropouts -- unless you need them
>>>>for a fixed gear or gear hub bike, vertical dropouts are superior.

>>Jasper Janssen wrote:
>>>Not exactly easy to change them out on an existing bike.

> A. Muzi wrote:
>>Oh, yeah?
>>It's not only easy, its quick and cheap too.
>>http://www.yellowjersey.org/trakends.html

Benjamin Lewis wrote:
> Hmm. What's a reasonable price to expect to convert horizontal dropouts to
> vertical on a steel frame?

If no unusual problems, same price, $120.

Dechroming is extra, spraycan primer/color is free, real
airbrush enamel touchup is extra.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[Dave Larrington]

In article <PiKnf.146154$0l5.72581@dukeread06>, Phil, Squid-in-Training
([email protected]) wrote:
> Ron Ruff wrote:
> > (PeteCresswell) wrote:
> >> Per [email protected]:
> >>> I don't know what sort of vertical dropouts you have in mind but
> >>> mine work just fine with the QR open... until I make a jump.
> >>
> >> Given the front wheel's tolerance for a loose skewer - by virtue of
> >> the lawyer lips - and the lack of pedaling torque, could one say
> >> that the right tightness for that skewer is just tight enough so
> >> that it doesn't come loose on it's own?
> >
> > Does anybody here actually leave the lawyer lips on their forks? I
> > don't like them, and they are easy enough to remove. Filling them off
> > is just another "chore" to prep a new bike...
>
> Yes. Some of us with suspension forks using disc brakes like the added
> band-aid safety measure of the lawyer lips. Some of us leave it for resale
> value.

And some of us just can't be arsed... Though of my four bikes, one
predates the Lawyer Lip era and another has a monoblade, so that's half
the work taken care of already.

--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
I thought I saw his name on a jar of marmalade the other day, but when I
looked more closely, I saw it read 'thick cut'.

 

[Helmut Springer]

"(PeteCresswell)" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Loss of a front wheel at almost any speed looks to me like one of
> those truly catastrophic events.

Yes. The usual quick check before riding includes check of QR
closed resp. wheel fixed.

--
MfG/Best regards
helmut springer

 

[Robin Hubert]

A Muzi wrote:
>>> On 12 Dec 2005 12:40:31 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
>>>
>>>> Unfortunately through trial and error I have discovered there are many
>>>> non Shimano, non Campy skewers that perform as the original poster
>>>> describes.
>
>
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> [email protected] says...
>>
>>> Can anyone explain what's up with that? The Campy and Shimano skewers
>>> work
>>
>> fine,
>>
>>> better than all the rest, but nobody else seems to make that typed of
>>> enclosed
>>> cam skewer. Why not?
>
>
> Alex Rodriguez wrote:
>
>> Cost.
>
>
> I'm not so sure. Suzue recently closed but made that model at a great
> price for years. Several 'generic' suppliers, KK, Sovos, Quando, etc put
> functional steel skewers in some fairly inexpensive hubs for commodity
> wheels. If there is a cost difference it can't be much in volume. Could
> it be that $79 BSO designers feel an aluminum skewer has a (value-added)
> fashionable look?
>
> The home trainer manufacturers ( CycleOps, Minoura, etc) include a steel
> skewer with their products because so few bikes have decent skewers now.
> Above the other discussions here, the darned things can't support a bike
> in a trainer.
>
>

I don't think it's that. It's that the alloy skewers have a lever
(external cam) that doesn't fit into the trainer clamps like an internal
cam type skewer does.


Robin Hubert

 

[[email protected]]

Helmut Springer writes:

>> Loss of a front wheel at almost any speed looks to me like one of
>> those truly catastrophic events.

> Yes. The usual quick check before riding includes check of QR
> closed resp. wheel fixed.

That sounds odd. It seems the bicycle in question is not under the
control of the user or how else would the wheel be in the bicycle and
the QR not properly closed. Either the wheel was installed in the
bicycle or it wasn't. You don't just put the wheel in there and
partially close the QR if you are the user/owner, I assume after
unloading it from the car.

I don't need to check the QR's when I take my bicycle out of the house
because I test tire pressure by bouncing first the rear and then the
front on the floor at which time an open QR (if possible) would come
to light. The whole scenario sound contrived.

I think we have a whole generation of riders who don't understand a QR
or for what it might be useful. For these people we need nutted
axles, not lawyer lips, that have trained people to misuse QR lever as
a handle of a wing nut rather than a closure lever. All this, thanks
to expert witness John Howard who testified that QR's normally come
unscrewed if not regularly re-tightened.

http://www.multisports.com/johnh.html
http://www.canosoarus.com/08LSRbicycle/LSR Bike01.htm

I am amazed how such PR stunts find acceptance with technically astute
people. The gear had such a high ratio that a rider sitting on the
bicycle could not propell it by pedaling. It was propelled entirely
by the vortex behind the wind screen, requiring the bicycle to be
towed up to a speed at which this vortex became effective. The pedals
contributed nothing to the effort other than to make John Howard
appear to be riding a bicycle.

In contrast, the real thing:

http://www.wisil.recumbents.com/wisil/whpsc2001/resultsSaturday.htm

Jobst Brandt

 

[Simon Cooper]

"Dave Larrington" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <PiKnf.146154$0l5.72581@dukeread06>, Phil, Squid-in-Training
> ([email protected]) wrote:
> > Ron Ruff wrote:
> > > (PeteCresswell) wrote:
> > >> Per [email protected]:
> > > Does anybody here actually leave the lawyer lips on their forks? I
> > > don't like them, and they are easy enough to remove. Filling them off
> > > is just another "chore" to prep a new bike...
> >
> And some of us just can't be arsed... Though of my four bikes, one
> predates the Lawyer Lip era and another has a monoblade, so that's half
> the work taken care of already.
>

My Cannondale seems to have "lips" formed by two allen bolts at the bottom
of the fork dropouts. Seems a most sensible solution.

 

[Simon Cooper]

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Helmut Springer writes:
>
> >> Loss of a front wheel at almost any speed looks to me like one of
> >> those truly catastrophic events.
>
> > Yes. The usual quick check before riding includes check of QR
> > closed resp. wheel fixed.
>
> That sounds odd. It seems the bicycle in question is not under the
> control of the user or how else would the wheel be in the bicycle and
> the QR not properly closed. Either the wheel was installed in the
> bicycle or it wasn't. You don't just put the wheel in there and
> partially close the QR if you are the user/owner, I assume after
> unloading it from the car.

Guess you never cycled to school and had kids come steal your skewers during
the day then...

>
>

 

[[email protected]]

Simon Cooper writes:

>>>> Loss of a front wheel at almost any speed looks to me like one of
>>>> those truly catastrophic events.

>>> Yes. The usual quick check before riding includes check of QR
>>> closed resp. wheel fixed.

>> That sounds odd. It seems the bicycle in question is not under the
>> control of the user or how else would the wheel be in the bicycle
>> and the QR not properly closed. Either the wheel was installed in
>> the bicycle or it wasn't. You don't just put the wheel in there
>> and partially close the QR if you are the user/owner, I assume
>> after unloading it from the car.

> Guess you never cycled to school and had kids come steal your
> skewers during the day then...

I rode my one-speed balloon tired bicycle to school from the first
grade onward. No one unscrewed my axle nuts and I did that in the
days when an unlocked bicycle was not a mandatory theft. I have also
never had to lock my bicycle, at grade school, college or elsewhere.

You don't need no steenkin derailleur bicycle to ride to school if you
live in civilized terrain.

Jobst Brandt

 

[Helmut Springer]

[email protected] wrote:
>> Yes. The usual quick check before riding includes check of QR
>> closed resp. wheel fixed.
>
> That sounds odd. It seems the bicycle in question is not under
> the control of the user or how else would the wheel be in the
> bicycle and the QR not properly closed.

A bicycle parked in a public accessable place might qualify as "not
under the owner's control", sometimes a QR or brake gets opened on
such occasion.


> I don't need to check the QR's when I take my bicycle out of the
> house because I test tire pressure by bouncing first the rear and
> then the front on the floor at which time an open QR (if possible)
> would come to light. The whole scenario sound contrived.

The nitpicking would remark that your check includes the check for
an open QR: your bouncing would reveal an open QR.

--
MfG/Best regards
helmut springer

 

[Ben Pfaff]

[email protected] writes:

> I rode my one-speed balloon tired bicycle to school from the first
> grade onward. No one unscrewed my axle nuts and I did that in the
> days when an unlocked bicycle was not a mandatory theft. I have also
> never had to lock my bicycle, at grade school, college or elsewhere.

Your signature used to say that you were in Palo Alto, CA. This
must be a different Palo Alto, CA from where I lived for a while,
because around here unlocked bikes get stolen all the time.
--
Ben Pfaff
email: [email protected]
web: http://benpfaff.org

 

[Matt O'Toole]

On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 17:58:09 +0000, jobst.brandt wrote:

> I rode my one-speed balloon tired bicycle to school from the first grade
> onward. No one unscrewed my axle nuts and I did that in the days when an
> unlocked bicycle was not a mandatory theft. I have also never had to lock
> my bicycle, at grade school, college or elsewhere.

Wow, the world has changed since. The disturbing thing is that much
of the time, theft for possession isn't the ultimate motive. It's just
vandalism, and/or people think it's funny to mess with your stuff.

Matt O.

 

[[email protected]]

Ben Pfaff wrote:
> [email protected] writes:
>
> > I rode my one-speed balloon tired bicycle to school from the first
> > grade onward. No one unscrewed my axle nuts and I did that in the
> > days when an unlocked bicycle was not a mandatory theft. I have also
> > never had to lock my bicycle, at grade school, college or elsewhere.
>
> Your signature used to say that you were in Palo Alto, CA. This
> must be a different Palo Alto, CA from where I lived for a while,
> because around here unlocked bikes get stolen all the time.

Jobst is about eight feet tall and rides a seven foot yellow bike.
Stealing it would be about as useful as stealing a Rose Bowl float.
Also, he walks forty miles through barbed wire, and uses a
cobra snake for a necktie. Nobody messes with Jobst's bike,
and they sure don't ride off on it.

 

[Jasper Janssen]

On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 16:56:45 -0600, A Muzi <[email protected]> wrote:

>> On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 22:04:06 -0500, Matt O'Toole
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>BTW, Jobst is right about horizontal dropouts -- unless you need them for
>>>a fixed gear or gear hub bike, vertical dropouts are superior.
>
>Jasper Janssen wrote:
>> Not exactly easy to change them out on an existing bike.
>
>Oh, yeah?
>It's not only easy, its quick and cheap too.
>http://www.yellowjersey.org/trakends.html

Err.... yeah. Deconstructing the bike to the bare frame, postage times 2,
including the possibility of damage, $120, and really needing a complete
respray/powdercoat to get a decent coat of paint, rebuilding the bike..
your definition of cheap and easy *clearly* differs from mine a lot.

Jasper

 

[Jasper Janssen]

On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 20:11:47 -0500, "Phil, Squid-in-Training"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Ron Ruff wrote:
>> (PeteCresswell) wrote:
>>> Per [email protected]:
>>>> I don't know what sort of vertical dropouts you have in mind but
>>>> mine work just fine with the QR open... until I make a jump.
>>>
>>> Given the front wheel's tolerance for a loose skewer - by virtue of
>>> the lawyer lips - and the lack of pedaling torque, could one say
>>> that the right tightness for that skewer is just tight enough so
>>> that it doesn't come loose on it's own?
>>
>> Does anybody here actually leave the lawyer lips on their forks? I
>> don't like them, and they are easy enough to remove. Filling them off
>> is just another "chore" to prep a new bike...
>
>Yes. Some of us with suspension forks using disc brakes like the added
>band-aid safety measure of the lawyer lips. Some of us leave it for resale
>value.

And some of us just don't expect to be changing tyres *that* often.

Jasper

 

[Jasper Janssen]

On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 15:58:27 -0500, Matt O'Toole
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Wow, the world has changed since. The disturbing thing is that much
>of the time, theft for possession isn't the ultimate motive. It's just
>vandalism, and/or people think it's funny to mess with your stuff.

Around here, about half of bike thefts, and 90% of bike *thieves*, simply
steal the easiest clunker they can find outside the bar to ride home on.
The other half of bike theft, and only 10% of bike thieves, are the pro
thieves (high-value bikes, stolen to move quickly either abroad or to a
different city), and the semi-pro junkies.

Jasper