How to fix an axle to a wheel, like a tricycle?

[John Doe]

I would like to secure a wheel onto a steel rod, so that when the rod
turns, the wheel turns.

Can the bearings be removed from a wheel?

What is the inner diameter of the wheel without bearings?

When the sprocket is turned, that's done from within the fork? So you
cannot turn the wheel from outside of the frame.

I would like to have the wheel firmly attached to the axle, with
frame/bearing on each side of the wheel, and then turn the axle from
one side of the frame.

Has anyone ever done that? I really don't know where to start, any
clues/links would be appreciated.

Maybe I should look at tricycles. But I would prefer inflatable tires.

Thank you.

 

[Ted Bennett]

John Doe <[email protected]> wrote:

> I would like to secure a wheel onto a steel rod, so that when the rod
> turns, the wheel turns.
>
> Can the bearings be removed from a wheel?

Yes. More specifically, from the hub. "Wheel" is the full assembly,
including hubs, spokes and rim.

> What is the inner diameter of the wheel without bearings?

Varies. Depends on the type of hub.

> When the sprocket is turned, that's done from within the fork? So you
> cannot turn the wheel from outside of the frame.
>
> I would like to have the wheel firmly attached to the axle, with
> frame/bearing on each side of the wheel, and then turn the axle from
> one side of the frame.
>
> Has anyone ever done that? I really don't know where to start, any
> clues/links would be appreciated.

Some delta trikes are driven by an axle connecting the two rear wheels.
Google delta tricycle. Tadpole trikes use all three axles fixed to the
frame, with stub axles in the front and usually an ordinary bicycle hub
in rear.

Unicycles also use a wheel fixed to a rotating axle.

> Maybe I should look at tricycles. But I would prefer inflatable tires.

Yes, you would.
>
> Thank you.

You're welcome.

--
Ted Bennett

 

[marcoles]

Perhaps a unicycle wheel or hub.

Marcus

 

[[email protected]]

Ted Bennett writes:

>> I would like to secure a wheel onto a steel rod, so that when the
>> rod turns, the wheel turns.

>> Can the bearings be removed from a wheel?

> Yes. More specifically, from the hub. "Wheel" is the full
> assembly, including hubs, spokes and rim.

Attaching a drive shaft to a wheel is a classic and age old problem.
As you see bicycle BB's have had cotters, then the triangular and
square tapers, then Octalink (Shimano), and now Shimano with a clamped
spline as in Race Face and Campagnolo with cast in spindle stubs with
central spline.

Classically, Henry ford used round tapered axle ends with a flat key
to attach brake drums and wheels, a design that regularly failed,
while GM used a plug-in spline (under oil) at the differential and a
mushroomed axle end to which brake drum and wheels are attached and is
widely used today.

>> What is the inner diameter of the wheel without bearings?

> Varies. Depends on the type of hub.

The next problem is that one wheel drive gets wheel spin on curves
with the drive wheel on the inside. This requires a differential, a
mechanism that is common on pedi-cabs and all automobiles.

>> When the sprocket is turned, that's done from within the fork? So
>> you cannot turn the wheel from outside of the frame. I would like
>> to have the wheel firmly attached to the axle, with frame/bearing
>> on each side of the wheel, and then turn the axle from one side of
>> the frame. Has anyone ever done that? I really don't know where
>> to start, any clues/links would be appreciated.

> Some delta trikes are driven by an axle connecting the two rear
> wheels. Google delta tricycle. Tadpole trikes use all three axles
> fixed to the frame, with stub axles in the front and usually an
> ordinary bicycle hub in rear.

I don't think they use a differential gear to drive both rear wheels.
The ones I have inspected all come form overseas, in Asia and Europe
and some in San Francisco.

> Unicycles also use a wheel fixed to a rotating axle.

Study that. It isn't easy.

>> Maybe I should look at tricycles. But I would prefer inflatable
tires.

> Yes, you would.

Inflatable tires are made but these tricycles are not available here.

Jobst Brandt

 

[Earl Bollinger]

"John Doe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I would like to secure a wheel onto a steel rod, so that when the rod
> turns, the wheel turns.
>
> Can the bearings be removed from a wheel?
>
> What is the inner diameter of the wheel without bearings?
>
> When the sprocket is turned, that's done from within the fork? So you
> cannot turn the wheel from outside of the frame.
>
> I would like to have the wheel firmly attached to the axle, with
> frame/bearing on each side of the wheel, and then turn the axle from
> one side of the frame.
>
> Has anyone ever done that? I really don't know where to start, any
> clues/links would be appreciated.
>
> Maybe I should look at tricycles. But I would prefer inflatable tires.
>
> Thank you.

The last trik I looked at, used a straight axle and the hubs had their
bearings removed and the axle very lightly press fitted to the hubs. They
had drilled and tapped a couple of holes for some allen screws around 8/32
or 10/32 in size, and screwed those into the axle via the hub to prevent the
wheel from slipping.
I do not remember if they had done it to both wheels, when I get a chance
I'll take a look again.

 

[Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman]

[email protected] aka Jobst Brandt wrote:
>
> The next problem is that one wheel drive gets wheel spin on curves
> with the drive wheel on the inside. This requires a differential, a
> mechanism that is common on pedi-cabs and all automobiles.

Some trike homebuilders have driven both wheels on a delta trike, and
used a freehub at each wheel to allow different wheel speed while
turning.

The A.S. Engineering S-327 "Sputnik" trike is a tadpole that drives
both front wheels: <http://mairas.net/recumbents/S327/>.

> >> When the sprocket is turned, that's done from within the fork? So
> >> you cannot turn the wheel from outside of the frame. I would like
> >> to have the wheel firmly attached to the axle, with frame/bearing
> >> on each side of the wheel, and then turn the axle from one side of
> >> the frame. Has anyone ever done that? I really don't know where
> >> to start, any clues/links would be appreciated.
>
> > Some delta trikes are driven by an axle connecting the two rear
> > wheels. Google delta tricycle. Tadpole trikes use all three axles
> > fixed to the frame, with stub axles in the front and usually an
> > ordinary bicycle hub in rear.
>
> I don't think they use a differential gear to drive both rear wheels.
> The ones I have inspected all come form overseas, in Asia and Europe
> and some in San Francisco.

The rare, out of production and decidedly oddball Thebis trike used a
custom differential: <http://www.wannee.nl/hpv/abt/thebis.jpg>.

--
Tom Sherman - Behind the Cheddar Curtain

 

[JeffWills]

Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:
> >
> > I don't think they use a differential gear to drive both rear wheels.
> > The ones I have inspected all come form overseas, in Asia and Europe
> > and some in San Francisco.
>
> The rare, out of production and decidedly oddball Thebis trike used a
> custom differential: <http://www.wannee.nl/hpv/abt/thebis.jpg>.
>

The less rare, but still hard-to-find Schwinn Town & Country "adult"
trike used a true differential to drive both rear wheels. This was on
T&C trikes built in the late '70's and early '80's. The differential
itself was built by Ret-Bar (Company? Industries?).

The neat thing about the Town & Country trike was that the rear end was
essentially bolted on to a standard Schwinn bicycle frame, so it would
be possible to unbolt it and put it on just about any other bike. It
wouldn't be straightforward, but it's easier than building your own
setup.

Jeff

 

[[email protected]]

Tom Sherman writes:

>> The next problem is that one wheel drive gets wheel spin on curves
>> with the drive wheel on the inside. This requires a differential,
>> a mechanism that is common on pedi-cabs and all automobiles.

> Some trike homebuilders have driven both wheels on a delta trike,
> and used a freehub at each wheel to allow different wheel speed
> while turning.

Well that's assbackwards, in a sharp turn you want the outside wheel
driving, not the inside one. That is why differentials are used.
With the FW setup the inside wheel still spins and wears out.

> The A.S. Engineering S-327 "Sputnik" trike is a tadpole that drives
> both front wheels: <http://mairas.net/recumbents/S327/>.

>>>> When the sprocket is turned, that's done from within the fork? So
>>>> you cannot turn the wheel from outside of the frame. I would like
>>>> to have the wheel firmly attached to the axle, with frame/bearing
>>>> on each side of the wheel, and then turn the axle from one side of
>>>> the frame. Has anyone ever done that? I really don't know where
>>>> to start, any clues/links would be appreciated.

>>> Some delta trikes are driven by an axle connecting the two rear
>>> wheels. Google delta tricycle. Tadpole trikes use all three axles
>>> fixed to the frame, with stub axles in the front and usually an
>>> ordinary bicycle hub in rear.

>> I don't think they use a differential gear to drive both rear wheels.
>> The ones I have inspected all come form overseas, in Asia and Europe
>> and some in San Francisco.

> The rare, out of production and decidedly oddball Thebis trike used a
> custom differential:

http://www.wannee.nl/hpv/abt/thebis.jpg

It's probably one from the pedicab market of Europe or Asia. You need
a differential!

Jobst Brandt

 

[Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman]

[email protected] aka Jobst Brandt wrote:
> Tom Sherman writes:
>
> >> The next problem is that one wheel drive gets wheel spin on curves
> >> with the drive wheel on the inside. This requires a differential,
> >> a mechanism that is common on pedi-cabs and all automobiles.
>
> > Some trike homebuilders have driven both wheels on a delta trike,
> > and used a freehub at each wheel to allow different wheel speed
> > while turning.
>
> Well that's assbackwards, in a sharp turn you want the outside wheel
> driving, not the inside one. That is why differentials are used.
> With the FW setup the inside wheel still spins and wears out.

In what situation is a trike rider going to be putting enough power to
the wheels to spin one in a corner? Yes, this could occur if one was
riding very aggressively, but that is not the norm for delta trike
riders, who tend towards touring, commuting and utility cycling. Those
that ride aggressively typically use RWD tadpole trikes.

It is reported that the two-freehub delta trike solution works well on
snow and ice, since if one wheel loses traction, the other still gets
power. An open differential does not work well in slippery conditions.
If one had the money, a Torsen type limited slip could be produced in
an appropriate size for human power use.

> ...
> > The rare, out of production and decidedly oddball Thebis trike used a
> > custom differential:
>
> http://www.wannee.nl/hpv/abt/thebis.jpg
>
> It's probably one from the pedicab market of Europe or Asia. You need
> a differential!

The Thebis needs a machinist who is familiar with working with
magnesium alloy, as almost everything is a custom part. If Rube
Goldberg rode a trike, it would be a Thebis.

--
Tom Sherman - Behind the Cheddar Curtain

 

[Matt O'Toole]

On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 04:09:03 +0000, jobst.brandt wrote:

> Tom Sherman writes:
>
>>> The next problem is that one wheel drive gets wheel spin on curves
>>> with the drive wheel on the inside. This requires a differential,
>>> a mechanism that is common on pedi-cabs and all automobiles.
>
>> Some trike homebuilders have driven both wheels on a delta trike,
>> and used a freehub at each wheel to allow different wheel speed
>> while turning.
>
> Well that's assbackwards, in a sharp turn you want the outside wheel
> driving, not the inside one. That is why differentials are used.
> With the FW setup the inside wheel still spins and wears out.
>
>> The A.S. Engineering S-327 "Sputnik" trike is a tadpole that drives
>> both front wheels: <http://mairas.net/recumbents/S327/>.
>
>>>>> When the sprocket is turned, that's done from within the fork? So
>>>>> you cannot turn the wheel from outside of the frame. I would like
>>>>> to have the wheel firmly attached to the axle, with frame/bearing
>>>>> on each side of the wheel, and then turn the axle from one side of
>>>>> the frame. Has anyone ever done that? I really don't know where
>>>>> to start, any clues/links would be appreciated.
>
>>>> Some delta trikes are driven by an axle connecting the two rear
>>>> wheels. Google delta tricycle. Tadpole trikes use all three axles
>>>> fixed to the frame, with stub axles in the front and usually an
>>>> ordinary bicycle hub in rear.
>
>>> I don't think they use a differential gear to drive both rear wheels.
>>> The ones I have inspected all come form overseas, in Asia and Europe
>>> and some in San Francisco.
>
>> The rare, out of production and decidedly oddball Thebis trike used a
>> custom differential:
>
> http://www.wannee.nl/hpv/abt/thebis.jpg
>
> It's probably one from the pedicab market of Europe or Asia. You need
> a differential!

Maybe in a motor vehicle, but in a pedal powered trike?

Matt O.

 

[Matt O'Toole]

On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 20:52:11 -0700, JeffWills wrote:

>
> Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:
>> >
>> > I don't think they use a differential gear to drive both rear wheels.
>> > The ones I have inspected all come form overseas, in Asia and Europe
>> > and some in San Francisco.
>>
>> The rare, out of production and decidedly oddball Thebis trike used a
>> custom differential: <http://www.wannee.nl/hpv/abt/thebis.jpg>.
>>
>
> The less rare, but still hard-to-find Schwinn Town & Country "adult"
> trike used a true differential to drive both rear wheels. This was on
> T&C trikes built in the late '70's and early '80's. The differential
> itself was built by Ret-Bar (Company? Industries?).
>
> The neat thing about the Town & Country trike was that the rear end was
> essentially bolted on to a standard Schwinn bicycle frame, so it would
> be possible to unbolt it and put it on just about any other bike. It
> wouldn't be straightforward, but it's easier than building your own
> setup.

I remember these well -- they were popular with old folks in the
neighborhood where I grew up. I didn't realize they had a differential
though.

If anyone researching pedal trikes has a list of links that they'd like
to share, I'd appreciate having it for a project I'm working on.

Thanks!

Matt O.

 

[Ted Bennett]

"Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote:

> [email protected] aka Jobst Brandt wrote:
> > Tom Sherman writes:
> >
> > >> The next problem is that one wheel drive gets wheel spin on curves
> > >> with the drive wheel on the inside. This requires a differential,
> > >> a mechanism that is common on pedi-cabs and all automobiles.
> >
> > > Some trike homebuilders have driven both wheels on a delta trike,
> > > and used a freehub at each wheel to allow different wheel speed
> > > while turning.
> >
> > Well that's assbackwards, in a sharp turn you want the outside wheel
> > driving, not the inside one. That is why differentials are used.
> > With the FW setup the inside wheel still spins and wears out.
>
> In what situation is a trike rider going to be putting enough power to
> the wheels to spin one in a corner? Yes, this could occur if one was
> riding very aggressively, but that is not the norm for delta trike
> riders, who tend towards touring, commuting and utility cycling. Those
> that ride aggressively typically use RWD tadpole trikes.

Who you calling aggressive?

Actually, it doesn't take much power at all to spin the inside tire in a
hard turn, either by pedal power or by the brakes. I notice that
routinely. Maybe I do go around corners pretty fast; it's fun.

> It is reported that the two-freehub delta trike solution works well on
> snow and ice, since if one wheel loses traction, the other still gets
> power. An open differential does not work well in slippery conditions.
> If one had the money, a Torsen type limited slip could be produced in
> an appropriate size for human power use.

Differentials do exist, or did. I don't have a cite handy but I'm sure
that English deltas ("barrows") used a differential for the performance
reasons Jobst mentioned.

--
Ted Bennett

 

[JeffWills]

Matt O'Toole wrote:
> >
> > The less rare, but still hard-to-find Schwinn Town & Country "adult"
> > trike used a true differential to drive both rear wheels. This was on
> > T&C trikes built in the late '70's and early '80's. The differential
> > itself was built by Ret-Bar (Company? Industries?).
> >
> > The neat thing about the Town & Country trike was that the rear end was
> > essentially bolted on to a standard Schwinn bicycle frame, so it would
> > be possible to unbolt it and put it on just about any other bike. It
> > wouldn't be straightforward, but it's easier than building your own
> > setup.
>
> I remember these well -- they were popular with old folks in the
> neighborhood where I grew up. I didn't realize they had a differential
> though.
>

The Schwinn Town & Country did- *most* adult trikes did not. I worked
in a Schwinn shop during that period, so I got to play with them
frequently. The differential drive had the both the strengths and
weaknesses that Jobst and Tom have mentioned, plus another: since the
brake was at the "hub" before the differential, braking while cornering
hard would simply lock up the inside wheel and not apply any braking
force to the ground. This was only a problem for us shop rats- I can't
imagine Granny wailing through a high-G corner.

Jeff

 

[Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman]

Ted Bennett wrote:
> ...
> > It is reported that the two-freehub delta trike solution works well on
> > snow and ice, since if one wheel loses traction, the other still gets
> > power. An open differential does not work well in slippery conditions.
> > If one had the money, a Torsen type limited slip could be produced in
> > an appropriate size for human power use.
>
> Differentials do exist, or did. I don't have a cite handy but I'm sure
> that English deltas ("barrows") used a differential for the performance
> reasons Jobst mentioned.

Are there any differentials suitable for human power use that have
limited slip, or are they all "open'?

--
Tom Sherman - Behind the Cheddar Curtain

 

[Jenny Brien]

Ted Bennett wrote:

>
> Actually, it doesn't take much power at all to spin the inside tire in a
> hard turn, either by pedal power or by the brakes. I notice that
> routinely. Maybe I do go around corners pretty fast; it's fun.
>
> > It is reported that the two-freehub delta trike solution works well on
> > snow and ice, since if one wheel loses traction, the other still gets
> > power. An open differential does not work well in slippery conditions.
> > If one had the money, a Torsen type limited slip could be produced in
> > an appropriate size for human power use.
>
> Differentials do exist, or did. I don't have a cite handy but I'm sure
> that English deltas ("barrows") used a differential for the performance
> reasons Jobst mentioned.
>
Racing barrows are a sight to behold!
http://www.tricycleassociation.org.uk/public/bin447b28ea8d227_thumb.JPG

They don't use differentials, just a single whell drive - the left
wheel if racing clockwise and the right wheel if vice versa. In this
application a two-freehub setup would be a liablity, since the inside
wheel would always be doing the driving, making the trike understeer
under power. Then, when it lifts or spins, drive suddenly goes to the
outside wheel, the nose tries to tuck in more, and you can guess the
rest ;-)

A limited slip differential would have the same problem, but not so
severely. A normal differential would just lose traction until the
wheel came down again - nuch safer. I've heard of an off-road trike
that might have had a limited slip diff, but for that application you
would, I think, be better off with a normal diff and some way to brake
each back wheel independently. Works for tractors and trials cars!
BTW, the racing trikes I've seen all had brakes only on the front
wheel. Experienced cyclists find them very wierd - you want to lean and
countersteer, and end up turning in the opposite direction.

There are uprght trikes with two wheels at the frond, which makes a lot
more sense to me. http://www.roman-road.co.uk

Jenny Brien
---
There are so many new mistakes to make - why repeat the old ones?

> --
> Ted Bennett

 

[Michael Press]

In article
<[email protected]>,
"Jenny Brien" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Ted Bennett wrote:
>
> >
> > Actually, it doesn't take much power at all to spin the inside tire in a
> > hard turn, either by pedal power or by the brakes. I notice that
> > routinely. Maybe I do go around corners pretty fast; it's fun.
> >
> > > It is reported that the two-freehub delta trike solution works well on
> > > snow and ice, since if one wheel loses traction, the other still gets
> > > power. An open differential does not work well in slippery conditions.
> > > If one had the money, a Torsen type limited slip could be produced in
> > > an appropriate size for human power use.
> >
> > Differentials do exist, or did. I don't have a cite handy but I'm sure
> > that English deltas ("barrows") used a differential for the performance
> > reasons Jobst mentioned.
> >
> Racing barrows are a sight to behold!
> http://www.tricycleassociation.org.uk/public/bin447b28ea8d227_thumb.JPG

You mean
http://www.tricycleassociation.org.uk/public/bin447b28ea8d227.JPG

--
Michael Press

 

[[email protected]]

Michael Press writes:

>>> Actually, it doesn't take much power at all to spin the inside
>>> tire in a hard turn, either by pedal power or by the brakes. I
>>> notice that routinely. Maybe I do go around corners pretty fast;
>>> it's fun.

>>>> It is reported that the two-freehub delta trike solution works
>>>> well on snow and ice, since if one wheel loses traction, the
>>>> other still gets power. An open differential does not work well
>>>> in slippery conditions. If one had the money, a Torsen type
>>>> limited slip could be produced in an appropriate size for human
>>>> power use.

>>> Differentials do exist, or did. I don't have a cite handy but I'm
>>> sure that English deltas ("barrows") used a differential for the
>>> performance reasons Jobst mentioned.

>> Racing barrows are a sight to behold!

http://www.tricycleassociation.org.uk/public/bin447b28ea8d227_thumb.JPG

> You mean

http://www.tricycleassociation.org.uk/public/bin447b28ea8d227.JPG

I see no differential in that tricycle. Of course when cornering
hard, as you see, there is no power to the pedals so we don't need no
steenkin differential. It is for everyday use that a differential is
useful, as I mentioned in pedicabs and senior citizen tricyclists.

Jobst Brandt

 

[Chalo]

[email protected] wrote:
>
> Tom Sherman writes:
> >
> > Some trike homebuilders have driven both wheels on a delta trike,
> > and used a freehub at each wheel to allow different wheel speed
> > while turning.
>
> Well that's assbackwards, in a sharp turn you want the outside wheel
> driving, not the inside one. That is why differentials are used.

There are other things you want, too-- like light weight, reasonable
cost, mechanical simplicity, easy assembly and disassembly, etc. To
address these things it might be better not to use a differential.

The line of adult trikes that has been in production for by far the
longest (in the USA anyway) is the Worksman "Adaptable" series. Those
use a solid axle with one wheel driving and the other spinning freely
upon the axle. Within the dynamic operating envelope of an upright
delta trike, this is a wholly satisfactory solution.

> You need a differential!

You _need_ the wheels to be able to rotate at different rates. A
differential is something you _might like_ to have to accomplish this
end.

Chalo

 

[RonSonic]

On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 19:29:24 GMT, Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:

>In article
><[email protected]>,
> "Jenny Brien" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Ted Bennett wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > Actually, it doesn't take much power at all to spin the inside tire in a
>> > hard turn, either by pedal power or by the brakes. I notice that
>> > routinely. Maybe I do go around corners pretty fast; it's fun.
>> >
>> > > It is reported that the two-freehub delta trike solution works well on
>> > > snow and ice, since if one wheel loses traction, the other still gets
>> > > power. An open differential does not work well in slippery conditions.
>> > > If one had the money, a Torsen type limited slip could be produced in
>> > > an appropriate size for human power use.
>> >
>> > Differentials do exist, or did. I don't have a cite handy but I'm sure
>> > that English deltas ("barrows") used a differential for the performance
>> > reasons Jobst mentioned.
>> >
>> Racing barrows are a sight to behold!
>> http://www.tricycleassociation.org.uk/public/bin447b28ea8d227_thumb.JPG
>
>You mean
>http://www.tricycleassociation.org.uk/public/bin447b28ea8d227.JPG


http://www.tricycleassociation.org.uk/

This is sorta cycling's answer to race walking.

Ron

 

[Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman]

[email protected] aka Jobst Brandt wrote:
> Tom Sherman writes:
>
> >>> It is reported that the two-freehub delta trike solution works
> >>> well on snow and ice, since if one wheel loses traction, the other
> >>> still gets power. An open differential does not work well in
> >>> slippery conditions. If one had the money, a Torsen type limited
> >>> slip could be produced in an appropriate size for human power use.
>
> >> Differentials do exist, or did. I don't have a cite handy but I'm
> >> sure that English deltas ("barrows") used a differential for the
> >> performance reasons Jobst mentioned.
>
> > Are there any differentials suitable for human power use that have
> > limited slip, or are they all "open"?
>
> Human powered vehicles don't need limited slip unless they are riding
> on ice and hard-pack snow.

The system I described above with two driven freehubs was implemented
on a delta trike specifically designed for riding on snow and ice in
Minnesota. It effectively transfers torque to the drive wheel that has
more traction.

> It's bad enough to find a bicycle
> differential let alone one with automotive features like limited slip.
> I don't know what you mean by "open"....

A standard differential without limited slip that directs torque to the
wheel that is spinning faster, i.e. the wheel with lower traction.

--
Tom Sherman - Here, not there.