How to improve recovery time.

[Sillyoldtwit]

Would you be able to provide a link toward this data?

I am not arguing at all, but I can't see how what one does the day after a hard anaerobic day can influance the way one metabolizes lactate

Yes you are!

 

[sig220]

Data was gained during an graduate level exercise physiology experiment and was tested using statistical analysis tools.

In the end I will agree that time makes more difference than anything else, along with proper nutrition, rest, etc.

I'm not disagreeing, just providing some other options.

 

[jeff828]

Why did you write 'sans'? Do you speak french or is it an english language twist?

Anyway. That's an interesting example here. And I like the fact that your statement occurs over half a week. To me, a single workout doesn't mean much. It's just a word in a sentence.

As far as I am concerned, I'd expect to do better on the test, with the recovery ride.

I feel (more than I understand) training like some bounces we have to do from one important workout to the other. I'd expect (at least for myself) to be able to bounce better by doing L4/L1/off/Test, than L4/off/off/Test. That just makes me feel safer that my legs feel great during the test.

And depending on what was before saturday's workout, depending on the level of accute fatigue I'm carrying, I might even respond better with L4/L2/off/Test. That's because I run out of breath quite easily during a 60min test. And I donno, I just feel a touch of L2 two days before the test might help.

But that's me. I consider any other combination as potentially winning too.

If you do better doing L4/L1/off/Test, what is the length of your L1 day?

I agree, the L4/off/off/Test is not as good since after the first day off you should be fully recovered so the following day to take off makes no sense, your fitness will only start to decline.

Are you fully recovered after that L1 day, if so why not try your test or another L4 day?


I do better with a program like L4/off/L4/off/L4 or L5/off/L5/off/L5, its been working awesome this whole year.

 

[Lucy_Aspenwind]

If you do better doing L4/L1/off/Test, what is the length of your L1 day?

I agree, the L4/off/off/Test is not as good since after the first day off you should be fully recovered so the following day to take off makes no sense, your fitness will only start to decline.

Are you fully recovered after that L1 day, if so why not try your test or another L4 day?


I do better with a program like L4/off/L4/off/L4 or L5/off/L5/off/L5, its been working awesome this whole year.

Well for all that can be said about L4, more detail is needed. I mean what does it mean to do an L4 day...20 minutes? 40 minutes? 60 minutes? more?

Also, recovery varies according to the individual, their experience, physiology, etc.

So if this was done, I'd want to know that it was, for example:

60 minutes @ L4/ 60 minutes @ L1/off/60 minute FTP test

 

[jeff828]

Well for all that can be said about L4, more detail is needed. I mean what does it mean to do an L4 day...20 minutes? 40 minutes? 60 minutes? more?

Also, recovery varies according to the individual, their experience, physiology, etc.

So if this was done, I'd want to know that it was, for example:

60 minutes @ L4/ 60 minutes @ L1/off/60 minute FTP test

Standard L4s are 2x20min (40min total)
My L4s are 2x20min, sometimes I do 3x20s (60min total) with 5min rest in between each 20min (under 75watts)

So here it is, I've done this all year & FTP is up. I also used the same program but instead of L4 days I did L5s (5x5min) I seem to ALWAYS be recovered 100% with that day off, so when I do the next day of intervals Im coming out of my skin. Staying mentally motivated is also another art.

Monday.......Tues.......Wed.........Thur........Fri..........Sat.........Sunday
40-60min L4/ OFF / 40-60min L4 / OFF / 40-60min L4/ OFF / 4-5hr group ride


Next Week

Monday.....Tues.......Wed......Thur.........Fri............Sat............Sunday
OFF / 40-60min L4 / OFF / 40-60min L4/ OFF / 4-5hr group ride / OFF

The one thing that Im amazed at is I can do 3-5hr rides/races (cat3) on basically 1hr rides during the week & be competetive. I have an average of about 130miles per week. But then again, we dont get dropped by riding aerobic, its the efforts that do it to us, so I have over 170 intervals this year.

 

[Lucy_Aspenwind]

Standard L4s are 2x20min (40min total)
My L4s are 2x20min, sometimes I do 3x20s (60min total) with 5min rest in between each 20min (under 75watts)

So here it is, I've done this all year & FTP is up. I also used the same program but instead of L4 days I did L5s (5x5min) I seem to ALWAYS be recovered 100% with that day off, so when I do the next day of intervals Im coming out of my skin. Staying mentally motivated is also another art.

Monday.......Tues.......Wed.........Thur........Fri..........Sat.........Sunday
40-60min L4/ OFF / 40-60min L4 / OFF / 40-60min L4/ OFF / 4-5hr group ride


Next Week

Monday.....Tues.......Wed......Thur.........Fri............Sat............Sunday
OFF / 40-60min L4 / OFF / 40-60min L4/ OFF / 4-5hr group ride / OFF

The one thing that Im amazed at is I can do 3-5hr rides/races (cat3) on basically 1hr rides during the week & be competetive. I have an average of about 130miles per week. But then again, we dont get dropped by riding aerobic, its the efforts that do it to us, so I have over 170 intervals this year.

Good for you Jeff, about the progress and such.

If you stay competitive on the longer rides, I would suspect it has to do with the amount of L4/L5 work you do and have done.

Back to the thread though....how would you feel about doing an L1 ride, say 60 minutes, between your L4 days? Would it be beneficial? Would you prefer to stay off the bike entirely?

Oh and out of curiousity, how long have you been riding/training?

 

[jeff828]

Good for you Jeff, about the progress and such.

If you stay competitive on the longer rides, I would suspect it has to do with the amount of L4/L5 work you do and have done.

Yes Im assuming its because of that.

Back to the thread though....how would you feel about doing an L1 ride, say 60 minutes, between your L4 days? Would it be beneficial? Would you prefer to stay off the bike entirely?

I prefer to stay off the bike, it gives the mind a rest also.

IM Opinion If your doing a L1 ride, thats so easy, your not building anything anyway, why get on the bike at all, might as well take off completely. I want to be building every time I get on the bike, whether its L4/L5 or its 3-5hr endurance rides, not piddling at 15mph.
The thing I will agree with is that it might circulate the blood more to flush out the legs & feel snappy but I think its what one gets used to.


If L1 recovery rides were good enough to recover your legs so the following day you would be able to do another days session, you would never have to be off the bike, you could ride 7 days a week. Speaking of that, does anyone take complete days off regularly or is it just when we feel fried we say oops better take a day or 2 off. Remember the rule, drink before your thirsty, eat before your hungry or else its too late then, so take days off before your fried. Has anyone taken a day off when they are feeling good, heck no, we only take off when were are tired, maybe its too late then. Seems taking days off is taboo, we must get on the bike even if we call it a "recovery day"

Oh and out of curiosity, how long have you been riding/training?

About 15 years & this year has been the biggest increase in ability thanks to the guys on this power forum, mainly the "its killing me" forum. Thanks again guys.

 

[Lucy_Aspenwind]

I prefer to stay off the bike, it gives the mind a rest also.

IM Opinion If your doing a L1 ride, thats so easy, your not building anything anyway, why get on the bike at all, might as well take off completely. I want to be building every time I get on the bike, whether its L4/L5 or its 3-5hr endurance rides, not piddling at 15mph.
The thing I will agree with is that it might circulate the blood more to flush out the legs & feel snappy but I think its what one gets used to.

Ok, thanks for sharing your opinions and insight on this. I am by comparison, all of 3 months into this biking endeavor. Saying I'm hooked would be a colossal understatement however

Anyway, I like to do interval work during the week and longer, 5-6 hour tempo rides on weekends. I find that I usually want a day off the bike entirely. I experimented with a recovery ride this past weekend after a 6 hour ride on saturday and I am still so-so on L1 stuff.

If L1 recovery rides were good enough to recover your legs so the following day you would be able to do another days session, you would never have to be off the bike, you could ride 7 days a week. Speaking of that, does anyone take complete days off regularly or is it just when we feel fried we say oops better take a day or 2 off. Remember the rule, drink before your thirsty, eat before your hungry or else its too late then, so take days off before your fried. Has anyone taken a day off when they are feeling good, heck no, we only take off when were are tired, maybe its too late then. Seems taking days off is taboo, we must get on the bike even if we call it a "recovery day"

I almost think the idea of staying off your bike despite feeling good, mimics the idea of tapering....sort of.

About 15 years & this year has been the biggest increase in ability thanks to the guys on this power forum, mainly the "its killing me" forum. Thanks again guys.

Now that is a great thread isn't it? Very encouraging, at least for me, being a complete novice and seeing someone make such great progress. Apparently though, even seasoned riders like you have gotten some good insights from said thread.

 

[Archibald]

Would the shorts version be sufficient or full length to cover the calves too?

With summer comming up I prefer to wear shorts during the day, I ride mainly in the mornings. I've been tossing up between the two. I use full length for snowsports.

full length sports version.
i don't ride in them, i only wear them at night when sleeping.
the snow ones will probably 'bake' you during the night.

 

[Felt_Rider]

I am by comparison, all of 3 months into this biking endeavor. Saying I'm hooked would be a colossal understatement however

We can tell of your addiction by your quickly rising and enthusiastic post count

Anyway, I like to do interval work during the week and longer, 5-6 hour tempo rides on weekends. I find that I usually want a day off the bike entirely. I experimented with a recovery ride this past weekend after a 6 hour ride on saturday and I am still so-so on L1 stuff.

I enjoy my recovery rides just because I end up getting bored just sitting around the house (if all the honey-do list is complete). I did a supposed recovery ride alone this past Sunday and I did really well the first 10 miles staying in the L1 zone, but once the soreness from the previous day's hard ride cleared out I slipped into L3 and for a brief moment (30 minutes ).

I am glad I did the ride on Sunday because early Monday morning I was feeling good for interval training on the spin bike. Maybe this is not good for everyone, but like you I am enthusiastic and my body is holding up so I might as well punish it for feeling so good.

 

[Rockslayer]

full length sports version.
i don't ride in them, i only wear them at night when sleeping.
the snow ones will probably 'bake' you during the night.

I thought about using the snow ones but never got around to getting them out, as you noted, probably be too warm.

I will invest in some sports ones..

 

[robbowatson]

We can tell of your addiction by your quickly rising and enthusiastic post count

I enjoy my recovery rides just because I end up getting bored just sitting around the house (if all the honey-do list is complete). I did a supposed recovery ride alone this past Sunday and I did really well the first 10 miles staying in the L1 zone, but once the soreness from the previous day's hard ride cleared out I slipped into L3 and for a brief moment (30 minutes ).

I am glad I did the ride on Sunday because early Monday morning I was feeling good for interval training on the spin bike. Maybe this is not good for everyone, but like you I am enthusiastic and my body is holding up so I might as well punish it for feeling so good.

I have come from a track and field backgound where, particularly in the winter months, you are constantly trying to improve one's lactate threshold. This is hugely important, as even during aerobic activity, your muscles will produce lactic acid, so the more efficiently you can get the lactic acid out of your system the better as it is this that causes the soreness and stiffness the following day.

I have found that 'tempo' days have been hugely beneficial after hard track sessions as this is done at around 40% effort to 'flush' the system out so that you can get ready for the next hard session either the following day or day after depending on how yourr schedule has been constructed. I took up cycling after injuring my knee and it was part of my rehab-loved it so much I waved T&F goodbye!!

Anyways I have not really suffered from much soreness due to my application of the ideas I learnt from my T&F days, so I personlly advocate long recovery rides as you flush out what LA is in the system when you start by metabolising it and you are constantly using LA as a fuel & therefore become more efficient in metabolising it.

 

[Lucy_Aspenwind]

We can tell of your addiction by your quickly rising and enthusiastic post count

And there I was trying to be subtle about it, no dice I guess

I enjoy my recovery rides just because I end up getting bored just sitting around the house (if all the honey-do list is complete). I did a supposed recovery ride alone this past Sunday and I did really well the first 10 miles staying in the L1 zone, but once the soreness from the previous day's hard ride cleared out I slipped into L3 and for a brief moment (30 minutes ).

I am glad I did the ride on Sunday because early Monday morning I was feeling good for interval training on the spin bike. Maybe this is not good for everyone, but like you I am enthusiastic and my body is holding up so I might as well punish it for feeling so good.

Interesting anecdote about your recovery ride....being good for a little while but then going a bit harder as you felt better. I can empathize with what you mean about getting bored, because really, besides volunteering, all I do on weekends is ride, ride, ride.

 

[SolarEnergy]

If you do better doing L4/L1/off/Test, what is the length of your L1 day?

Hi Jeff,
I think it's worth mentioning that this scenario was hypothetical. But still there's an ez answer to your question. I don't plan L1 workout durations in advance really, or at least I issue a duration *range* recommendation rather than than a precise duration. That's because I find that the purpose of L1 is more to see how things feel.

I agree, the L4/off/off/Test is not as good since after the first day off you should be fully recovered so the following day to take off makes no sense, your fitness will only start to decline.

While this can be true for certain riders given certain training loads, that won't be true for all riders in all situations. In fact the basis behind the 'tapering-peaking' theory is that some aren't fully recovered within a day.

The main reason why I'd consider recovery rides is to flatten the accute fatigue "curve" a bit more between to important workouts (or events). It seems that certain people might in some occasions react negatively, or at least not as positively as they which, to steep drop in accute fatigue.

Are you fully recovered after that L1 day, if so why not try your test or another L4 day?

I hesitate to use the word *Fully*, and prefer to save it, or to aim for it when I really need it. I'd rather use the expression recovered *enough*. And the answer really depends on the accute fatigue accumulated several days before. And of course that also depends on what's comming up too.

(personally), I love 60min TTs to train L4. But if I get into one with the aim of (hopefully) pushing the borders of FTP, then I need more than a day off, following more than a day of work. And even then, it's not always going to work.

I do better with a program like L4/off/L4/off/L4 or L5/off/L5/off/L5, its been working awesome this whole year.

This simple approach to planning certainly has its merits. I love simple stuff.

 

[jeff828]

While this can be true for certain riders given certain training loads, that won't be true for all riders in all situations. In fact the basis behind the 'tapering-peaking' theory is that some aren't fully recovered within a day.

The main reason why I'd consider recovery rides is to flatten the accute fatigue "curve" a bit more between to important workouts (or events). It seems that certain people might in some occasions react negatively, or at least not as positively as they which, to steep drop in accute fatigue

This simple approach to planning certainly has its merits. I love simple stuff.

I agree, what one person does might not work for another, we all have to find out what works best for us. This is what I like about this forum, so many people have different approaches & ideas to training, we might be able to pick up some tips that we didnt think of that work for us.
This approach works for me, kinda like weight lifters program, they never work the same muscle group 2-3 days in a row.

 

[Felt_Rider]

About the only thing I have been able to transfer from my many years of weight training to cycling are the general attributes of training (progressive nature - adaptation), nutrition (recovery is the same physiological process) and observing my body as to physical limitations when it comes to that fine line of over reaching and under training.

Now that I am interested in cycling I am trying to push the training threshold at a certain pace (weeks, months) specific to me personally. Also taking into account work stress impacting cortisol levels as well as training stress, but pushing my physical limitations (LT) incrementally so that I am in a progressive mode and not a detraining mode. Some people can handle the extra pressure and some cannot. Some people (many in my experience) cheat themselves by not pushing hard enough. Some people in their eagerness push too hard.

The last sentence in the following study about Training Adaptation sums it up for me, but finding that marker takes trial and error and sometimes one must take some risk in training to find that marker between pushing the threshold and pushing too hard. It is an individual marker exclusive to each one of us based on a number of factors inside and outside of the training world. Work stress seems to impact me physically more than training.

I have taken those risks through the years with success and I have also experienced a number of injuries like muscle tears and so on, but I rehab and push forward again.

Just some of those thoughts that rattle around in my head.

 

[jeff828]

Speaking of weight lifting, after a real hard day of bench presses, squats, bicep curls, ect. what do these guys do to flush out the lactic acid to prepare them for the next days hard session. I think most just have a couple of beers on the off days Anyone have any ideas?

Also do they know about using the lactic acid as fuel. I though it was a by-product of the work.

Thats why I like it simple straight forward, sometimes I cant comprehend whats said in these forums.

Someone once told me at work that he doesnt want to know much, when I asked why, he replied, because the more you know, the more you have to do. That can be said with some of the power forums, the more you know, the more sh!#t there is to talk about. Before the power taps, talking about heart rate training must have been boring.

 

[jeff828]

About the only thing I have been able to transfer from my many years of weight training to cycling are the general attributes of training (progressive nature - adaptation), nutrition (recovery is the same physiological process) and observing my body as to physical limitations when it comes to that fine line of over reaching and under training.

Now that I am interested in cycling I am trying to push the training threshold at a certain pace (weeks, months) specific to me personally. Also taking into account work stress impacting cortisol levels as well as training stress, but pushing my physical limitations (LT) incrementally so that I am in a progressive mode and not a detraining mode. Some people can handle the extra pressure and some cannot. Some people (many in my experience) cheat themselves by not pushing hard enough. Some people in their eagerness push too hard.

The last sentence in the following study about Training Adaptation sums it up for me, but finding that marker takes trial and error and sometimes one must take some risk in training to find that marker between pushing the threshold and pushing too hard. It is an individual marker exclusive to each one of us based on a number of factors inside and outside of the training world. Work stress seems to impact me physically more than training.

I have taken those risks through the years with success and I have also experienced a number of injuries like muscle tears and so on, but I rehab and push forward again.

Just some of those thoughts that rattle around in my head.

Couldnt have said it better myself.

Can you answer my post about the weight lifting/recovery scenario just posted?

 

[Felt_Rider]

Couldnt have said it better myself.

Can you answer my post about the weight lifting/recovery scenario just posted?

I train each bodypart once a week, but I may do up to 25 to 35 sets for one bodypart (about 15 for biceps and 15 for triceps). I hit it hard enough that it takes several days to recover, but by the next week I am good to go again.

Now that I am cycling my legs are getting hit 6 days a week along with weights on Tuesdays. Yesterday I did tempo training and then trained legs. My body felt like it was at the bink last night, but I hit spin class this morning and I hit it hard so I am hanging in there and I haven't come down with an illness to this point. I may be right at that line.

No beer for me just a lot of quality calories.

disclaimer: I am not a competitive cyclist so my training program is exculsive to my personal goals of being fit.

 

[otb4evr]

Couldnt have said it better myself.

Can you answer my post about the weight lifting/recovery scenario just posted?

Jeff,

Think about it this way: Weight lifting is anaerobic. The vast majority of cycling is aerobic. Anaerobic and sprint intervals will eventually pull in more aerobic fueling as the workout progresses.

http://www.freewebs.com/velodynamics/Fig.%2010b.GIF

So, to say that you need a day off after every aerobic workout day, I would say that you aren't stressing the body as much as you could. Obviously, this has worked for you. On the other hand, have you tried blocking your workouts?

As far as how most people feel about Lactic acid; I don't know.

I know how I feel about it...

http://cytosport.com/science/lacticacid.html

Jim