how to run in bike shoe in a triatholon

[Bob Haase]

Mark Cathcart wrote:
> Bob Haase wrote:
>
>
>>I have a Flatwing bottle holder behind my seat. Have you seen people do
>>this with that kind of an obstacle?
>
>
> Not sure what a flat wing is, but my race bike has a Profile two-bottle
> cage behind the seat and I don't have any problems with that. You can
> see it/me waddling out to the mount line in this video clip on my way
> out of T1 in the iron distance Longest Day where I also used a running
> mount with shoes already on the pedals.
> http://www.stuweb.co.uk/swp/default.asp?a=41&e=98&rn=159
>
> I doubt its a problem though, if you think about it, your left foot
> will already be on top of a shoe on a pedal, probably 2-3 inches off
> the ground, which makes swinging your right leg over the bottle holder
> and saddle that much easier.
>
Thanks for the info Mark!

I am going to practice mounting and dismounting this way. I already
take my feet out of the shoes when nearing the transition coming off of
the bike and it has helped my transition times. I can certainly see how
adding the other bits will make my transitions faster.

I used to think that shaving a couple of seconds off of my transition
times didn't matter that much, but we're not talking a couple of
seconds, we're talking at least tens of seconds or even a half minute or
more. And it's free time really. It doesn't require any extra effort.

The one thing I did a while ago to speed up my transitions was to ditch
the socks. That probably saved me 30 seconds right there, not having to
try to get my socks on my wet feet (yes I stood on a towel, but that
didn't dry my feet off enough to make putting socks on easy).

I do still wear socks in half ironman races, but have gone without in
all of my sprint and olympic distance tris.

Now all I need to do is work on my run. My run sucks! I usually take
off at a decent pace, but then as soon as I'm out of sight of the
spectators, I stop to walk. As the run progresses, I seem to have more
energy, so the walking breaks are shorter and less frequent. It's
frustrating, because I think back to when I used to be able to maintain
a seven-minute per mile pace for olympic distance Tris. Now I struggle
to maintain a ten-minute per mile pace!

I am almost twenty years older now, but still pretty young at 54, so I
don't want to attribute it to aging. Besides there are still quite a
few speedy guys in my age group!

Bob

 

[Mark Cathcart]

Bob Haase wrote:

> The one thing I did a while ago to speed up my transitions was to ditch
> the socks.

Ahh well another tip. I do socks for the longer races. Well I can't
make up my mind about socks for Half iron, and for Iron sitting in the
changing tent and putting socks on isn't a big deal.

So, if for a race you are not sure about socks, either becuase of
distance, new shoes, etc. put your socks together with your running
shoes in transition. Off the bike, into your shoes and out of
transition with your socks in your hands.

Even if you want to do this in an Olympic distance race you'll be
better off sat on a kirb 100yds from transition than you will be trying
to get them on in transition, especially busy, packed ones.

For half distance I tend to treat transitions just like sprints, fast
out, fast in, fast out, no socks. The first sign of any foot pain, sit
on a kirb and put my socks on. Looks odd, but assuming you have elastic
laces/lace locks, it really doesn't cost you much time. And anyone I've
taught this trick too and timed in and out of transition is always able
to put the socks on quicker sat on the sat of the road than stumbling
around in transition!

Of course, this is all part of my master plan to get as many people as
possible out of transition as quickly as possible so theres plenty of
room for me to sit on my behind, put on two pairs of socks, some winter
underwear, and then lace up my jackboots before going out to March the
run course...

 

[Mark Cathcart]

Harold Buck wrote:

> I'm so confused. How can a faster transition allow you to over take
> people in the last 50 m of the race, which in most tris is the end of
> the run?

I simply meant the last 50m of the (bike section of Sundays) race. The
ability to come towards the mount line at 16+MPH, standing on the left
shoe, foot out of the shoe and the other leg tucked behind the left
leg, four feet from the dismount line(approx.) hit the brakes and drop
the right legt, followed by the left leg and sprint...

This beats those who come to a complete stop to unclip, and those who
even if they do a running dismount in shoes then have to waddle or run
more slowly in their shoes.

As I said, its not for everyone. I understand certainly why you
wouldn't want novices and first timers to do it this way, but once
you've mastered the basics of swim/bike/run and done a few races to
learn the rules, this is a sure fire way to knock 90-seconds off
similarly capable triathletes who don't do it this way.

Enjoy!
aka Mr Transition at Westchester(NY) Cycling Club

 

[Bert L.am]

"aa" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
news:[email protected]...
> Hello,
> Coming out of transition, i have to run for about 100m with my bike
> shoes on. Any body would know these are not the best thing to run in.
> What do people do to get around this? Put them on, on the road, leave
> them on the pedals and slip in after they get on the bike?
>

try mountainbike shoes in stead of road racing shoes. It much easier to walk
and run on mountainbike shoes than in road racing shoes. I can not think of
any disadvantage. My wife even allowes me to use mtb shoes on our parquet
floor cause the do not damage the floor in any way and I can run on them as
well.

b


--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu

 

[John Hardt]

"Bert L.am" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> "aa" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
> news:[email protected]...
>> Hello,
>> Coming out of transition, i have to run for about 100m with my bike
>> shoes on. Any body would know these are not the best thing to run in.
>> What do people do to get around this? Put them on, on the road, leave
>> them on the pedals and slip in after they get on the bike?
>>
>
> try mountainbike shoes in stead of road racing shoes. It much easier to
> walk and run on mountainbike shoes than in road racing shoes. I can not
> think of any disadvantage. My wife even allowes me to use mtb shoes on our
> parquet floor cause the do not damage the floor in any way and I can run
> on them as well.
>
> b

I'll second this with one caveat - it only works for sprint and oly
distances. Most MTB shoes and clip combinations do not have much in the way
of pedal float. I tried this arrangement while training for an IM and
learned that for rides over 50-60 miles the absence of float has a real good
chance of tearing your knees apart.

-J

 

[Bert L.am]

"John Hardt" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
news:[email protected]...
> "Bert L.am" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "aa" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Hello,
>>> Coming out of transition, i have to run for about 100m with my bike
>>> shoes on. Any body would know these are not the best thing to run in.
>>> What do people do to get around this? Put them on, on the road, leave
>>> them on the pedals and slip in after they get on the bike?
>>>
>>
>> try mountainbike shoes in stead of road racing shoes. It much easier to
>> walk and run on mountainbike shoes than in road racing shoes. I can not
>> think of any disadvantage. My wife even allowes me to use mtb shoes on
>> our parquet floor cause the do not damage the floor in any way and I can
>> run on them as well.
>>
>> b
>
> I'll second this with one caveat - it only works for sprint and oly
> distances. Most MTB shoes and clip combinations do not have much in the
> way of pedal float. I tried this arrangement while training for an IM and
> learned that for rides over 50-60 miles the absence of float has a real
> good chance of tearing your knees apart.
>
> -J

What is float? (I'm Dutch and English is my second language)

Bert


--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu

 

[Skippy]

"Bert L.am" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> "John Hardt" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
> news:[email protected]...
>> "Bert L.am" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> "aa" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> Hello,
>>>> Coming out of transition, i have to run for about 100m with my bike
>>>> shoes on. Any body would know these are not the best thing to run in.
>>>> What do people do to get around this? Put them on, on the road, leave
>>>> them on the pedals and slip in after they get on the bike?
>>>>
>>>
>>> try mountainbike shoes in stead of road racing shoes. It much easier to
>>> walk and run on mountainbike shoes than in road racing shoes. I can not
>>> think of any disadvantage. My wife even allowes me to use mtb shoes on
>>> our parquet floor cause the do not damage the floor in any way and I can
>>> run on them as well.
>>>
>>> b
>>
>> I'll second this with one caveat - it only works for sprint and oly
>> distances. Most MTB shoes and clip combinations do not have much in the
>> way of pedal float. I tried this arrangement while training for an IM
>> and learned that for rides over 50-60 miles the absence of float has a
>> real good chance of tearing your knees apart.
>>
>> -J
>
> What is float? (I'm Dutch and English is my second language)
>
> Bert
>
> --
> Posted by news://news.nb.nu

Float is the amount of movement allowed by the retention mechanism before
release.

My experience is that SPD (mountain) has more float than SPD-SL (road).
Also, it doesn't matter what pedal system you're using - you have to get it
set up right. All clipless pedals with bust your knees if set up wrongly.
It also helps having shoes that right for your feet (just like your running
shoes).

Skippy
E&OE

 

[Bert L.am]

"Skippy" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
news:[email protected]...


>>> -J
>>
>> What is float? (I'm Dutch and English is my second language)
>>
>> Bert
>>
>> --
>> Posted by news://news.nb.nu
>
> Float is the amount of movement allowed by the retention mechanism before
> release.
>
> My experience is that SPD (mountain) has more float than SPD-SL (road).
> Also, it doesn't matter what pedal system you're using - you have to get
> it set up right. All clipless pedals with bust your knees if set up
> wrongly. It also helps having shoes that right for your feet (just like
> your running shoes).
>
> Skippy
> E&OE
>
>
>

Indeed, the amount of float is not depending of the type of pedal or clip
system. I'm using SPD on my mtb as well as on my road racer. Since walking
with mtb shoes is much easier and because I don't get cold or wet feet in
them a almost never use the rr-shoes anymore.


--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu

 

[Tamyka Bell]

Mark Cathcart wrote:
>
> Tamyka Bell wrote:
>
> > Didn't they have a green zone (no overtaking) in the last 50m?
>
> Never heard of such a thing in USAT or BTA races. How would you police
> or enforce it?

They do it in races in Australia no worries. It's designed for courses
with heaps of people and it's so there's no stacks heading into
transition - if you were passing someone and they fell into you, that
would hold you up a lot more than just waiting behind them. It's only
50m. Pass them before then, or pass them in transition. It's easy to
enforce, there are usually race officials near transition anyway, right?

> Do I have to wait behind some newbie who is struggling to unclip one
> foot?

Did you not catch them before the green zone?

 

[Tamyka Bell]

Harold Buck wrote:
>
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Tamyka Bell <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Mark Cathcart wrote:
> > <snip>
> > > Once you've managed going out, you can master coming back in. I
> > > overtook 12 people in the last 50m of Sundays race. The amount of
> > > messing about, and the slowness of people always amuses me, then I
> > > remember I was once like that, a novice, then I put the practise in!
> >
> > Didn't they have a green zone (no overtaking) in the last 50m?
>
> I'm so confused. How can a faster transition allow you to over take
> people in the last 50 m of the race, which in most tris is the end of
> the run?
>
> I've never heard of the "green zone," but it sounds like a dumb idea. I
> get my friend to ride right behind me, then have him walk his bike
> veeeeerrrry slowly for that last 50m over, say, 10 minutes. If no one
> can pass him, that should give me enough of a lead to really help my
> overall place.

Well, that's a bit ludicrous, isn't it? No, of course people can't do
that. It's the last 50m before the dismount line, so you wouldn't be
walking unless you had a flat. And if you were BLOCKING, then the
officials would be able to penalise you. And like I said in the other
reply, it's a safety thing. BTW I think your friend is very nice to
destroy his time like that, for your benefit.

 

[Mark Cathcart]

Bert L.am wrote:

> try mountainbike shoes in stead of road racing shoes. It much easier to walk
> and run on mountainbike shoes than in road racing shoes. I can not think of
> any disadvantage.

déjà vu. Suggest you go back and read the entire thread, this has
taken us back to last week.

 

[Mark Cathcart]

Tamyka Bell wrote:
> Did you not catch them before the green zone?

Why would I ? In some races with wave starts I set off 20-30-minutes
after the first wave. In a sprint triathlon over a bike course of 10-12
miles I'm not going to catch the whole field...

There is no real danger since I can both steer and brake, and am more
alert than most since they are too worried about getting shoes out of
clips.

 

[Harold Buck]

In article <[email protected]>,
Tamyka Bell <[email protected]> wrote:

> > I've never heard of the "green zone," but it sounds like a dumb idea. I
> > get my friend to ride right behind me, then have him walk his bike
> > veeeeerrrry slowly for that last 50m over, say, 10 minutes. If no one
> > can pass him, that should give me enough of a lead to really help my
> > overall place.
>
> Well, that's a bit ludicrous, isn't it? No, of course people can't do
> that. It's the last 50m before the dismount line, so you wouldn't be
> walking unless you had a flat. And if you were BLOCKING, then the
> officials would be able to penalise you. And like I said in the other
> reply, it's a safety thing. BTW I think your friend is very nice to
> destroy his time like that, for your benefit.

Well, depending on how the rule is written, it might not be ludicrous at
all. If the rule is "You may not pass in the last 50 m before the
dismount line. PENALTY: Variable time penalty," then someone could
intentionally go slowly, or even walk, those last 50 m to hold people
up. Perhaps you could post the text of the actual rule so we can see if
there are problems with it.

The difficulty in writing rules is you have to be aware that there will
always be people looking to take advantage of the loopholes in those
rules to get an edge.


--Harold Buck


"Hubris always wins in the end. The Greeks taught us that."

-Homer J. Simpson

 

[Bob Haase]

Harold Buck wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Tamyka Bell <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>>I've never heard of the "green zone," but it sounds like a dumb idea. I
>>>get my friend to ride right behind me, then have him walk his bike
>>>veeeeerrrry slowly for that last 50m over, say, 10 minutes. If no one
>>>can pass him, that should give me enough of a lead to really help my
>>>overall place.
>>
>>Well, that's a bit ludicrous, isn't it? No, of course people can't do
>>that. It's the last 50m before the dismount line, so you wouldn't be
>>walking unless you had a flat. And if you were BLOCKING, then the
>>officials would be able to penalise you. And like I said in the other
>>reply, it's a safety thing. BTW I think your friend is very nice to
>>destroy his time like that, for your benefit.
>
>
> Well, depending on how the rule is written, it might not be ludicrous at
> all. If the rule is "You may not pass in the last 50 m before the
> dismount line. PENALTY: Variable time penalty," then someone could
> intentionally go slowly, or even walk, those last 50 m to hold people
> up. Perhaps you could post the text of the actual rule so we can see if
> there are problems with it.
>
> The difficulty in writing rules is you have to be aware that there will
> always be people looking to take advantage of the loopholes in those
> rules to get an edge.
>
>
> --Harold Buck
>
>
> "Hubris always wins in the end. The Greeks taught us that."
>
> -Homer J. Simpson

Hi Harold,

You mean there are really people out there racing who would go out of
their way to inconvenience other racers without even gaining anything
for themselves? That's just malicious!

I'm glad that the races I do aren't like that. I'd like to think that
racers are trying to get a good result without intentionally cheating to
do so. I'm happy to say that the people I've encountered in races are
not like that. We're all there to have a good time and achieve some
kind of personal goal.

For those of you whose triathlon experience is not like this, I'd
recommend doing some smaller races, where the emphasis is on fun and
camaraderie, not just results at any cost (but don't think these events
aren't competitive!).

If you're from the Upper Midwest I'd recommend the Copperman Triathlon
in Copper Harbor, Michigan. It's a great small race in a wilderness
location with beautiful lakes and forests and plenty of wildlife (black
bears have been seen on the bike and run courses (and even the swim
course the night before the event one year)). It's always the first
Saturday in August.

Bob

 

[Bert L.am]

"Mark Cathcart" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
news:[email protected]...

Bert L.am wrote:

> try mountainbike shoes in stead of road racing shoes. It much easier to
> walk
> and run on mountainbike shoes than in road racing shoes. I can not think
> of
> any disadvantage.

déjà vu. Suggest you go back and read the entire thread, this has
taken us back to last week.


Vouz parlez francais, Monsieur? Je n'ai pas lu toutes les parts du fil
complet, parce que j'etais trop paresseux. Si ca vous dérangez, je voudrais
vous dire que il n'y a aucun besoin de lire mes messages.




--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu

 

[Harold Buck]

In article <%Z%[email protected]>,
Bob Haase <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> You mean there are really people out there racing who would go out of
> their way to inconvenience other racers without even gaining anything
> for themselves? That's just malicious!
>

Well, what I described would be something that would gain an advantage:
they'd get ahead of their friend, then have the friend use the "green
zone" to slow everyone else down behind them so they'd be more likely to
stay away in the run.

But there are people who inconvenience others without gaining anything
for themselves (although they might think it's helping them somehow).
There was a racer in an ITU race slapping the cups out of the
volunteers' hands, presumably so other racers couldn't stay hydrated.
When I told that story here, someone said they saw a guy at a race
intentionally sweep every cup off of a table to drinks, presumably for
the same reason, in a 10k race in which the guy who did it had no chance
of breaking 40 minutes.

--Harold Buck


"Hubris always wins in the end. The Greeks taught us that."

-Homer J. Simpson

 

[Mark Cathcart]

Bert L.am wrote:
> Vouz parlez francais, Monsieur? Je n'ai pas lu toutes les parts du fil
> complet, parce que j'etais trop paresseux. Si ca vous dérangez, je voudrais
> vous dire que il n'y a aucun besoin de lire mes messages.

Bert, it would be impolite not to reply. I just wanted to point out
that we'd already had the MTB shoe discussion. Its a useful step
between putting cycling shoes on and trying to run with them and the
full blown bare footed run and flying mount with shoes already in the
pedals. Even triathletes wearing MTB shoes can save a few seconds here
and a few seconds there by adopting pre-mounted shoes.

Sorry I couldn't reply in French, my ability to write in French is how
would you say "seulement très petit"

 

[lambert agneau]

Mark Cathcart schreef:

> Bert L.am wrote:
> > Vouz parlez francais, Monsieur? Je n'ai pas lu toutes les parts du fil
> > complet, parce que j'etais trop paresseux. Si ca vous dérangez, je voudrais
> > vous dire que il n'y a aucun besoin de lire mes messages.
>
> Bert, it would be impolite not to reply. I just wanted to point out
> that we'd already had the MTB shoe discussion. Its a useful step
> between putting cycling shoes on and trying to run with them and the
> full blown bare footed run and flying mount with shoes already in the
> pedals. Even triathletes wearing MTB shoes can save a few seconds here
> and a few seconds there by adopting pre-mounted shoes.
>
> Sorry I couldn't reply in French, my ability to write in French is how
> would you say "seulement très petit"

Hi, Mark. It was impolite to answer in French in the first place, but
after a sentence beginning with "Deja Vu" I could not resist the
temptation. Sorry for that. I do not always read each posting in a
thread, cause a) I'm to lazy to do so and b) somethimes long threads
loose their point and thus become pointless.

As I'm very enthousiastic about wearing mountain bike shoes, even
during road races and I just threw in my point of view.

Luckily a news group is not the equivalent of a help desk but the
equivalent of a group of grumpy old men (m/f) sitting in the park
commenting on people passing by and telling each other the same stories
over and over again.

Cheers from NL
Bert L.

 

[Tamyka Bell]

Harold Buck wrote:
>
> In article <%Z%[email protected]>,
> Bob Haase <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> > You mean there are really people out there racing who would go out of
> > their way to inconvenience other racers without even gaining anything
> > for themselves? That's just malicious!
> >
>
> Well, what I described would be something that would gain an advantage:
> they'd get ahead of their friend, then have the friend use the "green
> zone" to slow everyone else down behind them so they'd be more likely to
> stay away in the run.
>
> But there are people who inconvenience others without gaining anything
> for themselves (although they might think it's helping them somehow).
> There was a racer in an ITU race slapping the cups out of the
> volunteers' hands, presumably so other racers couldn't stay hydrated.
> When I told that story here, someone said they saw a guy at a race
> intentionally sweep every cup off of a table to drinks, presumably for
> the same reason, in a 10k race in which the guy who did it had no chance
> of breaking 40 minutes.

Seriously? Wow, if I was a race director I'd never let that person enter
my race again. And I'd spread the word. What a loser.

Tam

 

[Tamyka Bell]

Harold Buck wrote:
>
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Tamyka Bell <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > I've never heard of the "green zone," but it sounds like a dumb idea. I
> > > get my friend to ride right behind me, then have him walk his bike
> > > veeeeerrrry slowly for that last 50m over, say, 10 minutes. If no one
> > > can pass him, that should give me enough of a lead to really help my
> > > overall place.
> >
> > Well, that's a bit ludicrous, isn't it? No, of course people can't do
> > that. It's the last 50m before the dismount line, so you wouldn't be
> > walking unless you had a flat. And if you were BLOCKING, then the
> > officials would be able to penalise you. And like I said in the other
> > reply, it's a safety thing. BTW I think your friend is very nice to
> > destroy his time like that, for your benefit.
>
> Well, depending on how the rule is written, it might not be ludicrous at
> all. If the rule is "You may not pass in the last 50 m before the
> dismount line. PENALTY: Variable time penalty," then someone could
> intentionally go slowly, or even walk, those last 50 m to hold people
> up. Perhaps you could post the text of the actual rule so we can see if
> there are problems with it.

I'd have to check the rule book to post it, and I can't do that because
I only have email and newsgroups, and intranet, not www. Sorry about
that, I know it's slack, blame my IT guys...

The association website is: http://www.triathlon.org.au

> The difficulty in writing rules is you have to be aware that there will
> always be people looking to take advantage of the loopholes in those
> rules to get an edge.

That's just poo, isn't it. Like drafting - I had some chick drafting me
in a half ironman and I swore at her for a few minutes and then said if
she didn't come past, she'd cop my bidons one after the other until she
either took the hint or fell off. She went past but only to jump the
wheel of a faster (male) cyclist.

As I passed her on the run leg, she offered up that I was right and she
shouldn't be drafting, "I was just so angry because these other two
girls had been drafting me and then they took off and left me, didn't
return the favour." I said, "what did you expect? well I hope you can be
happy with your finish anyway, not that you can compare it to your other
triathlon times, unless you draft every year." Then I ran off and
happily came home about ten minutes before her.