HP Velo Design Flaw????



N

NYC XYZ

Guest
Hey, just visited the dealer again today to finalize the order, and I
noticed that the kickstand for HP Velo's low-rider rack seems poorly
thought-out! If you had panniers loaded, how's that kickstand supposed
to work then? You'd not only have to stick your foot around and behind
the panniers, but the kickstand doesn't seem like it'd have any room to
actually "flip" out, since the panniers would be in the way!

Another thing...does it make any sense that I'll be charged "labor" for
upgrades? To my way of thinking, the upgrade price already includes
labor and installation! After all, there wasn't a separate line item
for "labor" for the bike, and it obviously needed putting
together...also, I wouldn't buy the bike unless it is how I want it, so
if you gotta install something in order to make the sale, well, why
not?

I'm actually on the verge of cancelling this order, despite having put
down a deposit of $2,500. It's almost as if I'm bothering the guy!
He's closing shop for good next month and he wants to get rid of his
stuff. Thus, he ain't looking to do any more work. But from the
beginning I've expressed my interested in upgrades, and it's only now
that he's complaining about the extra work that would be involved! I
shut him up by saying that I'd pay him for the labor, because I was
gonna tip him like $50 as a thank-you and a "farewell" of sorts anyway,
but the more I think about it the more it annoys me, and if he charges
me more than $50 for labor I've a mind to just cancel. I gotta call
him like five times before he responds, and only then if I'm dangling
money or threatening to pull the order. Never had an e-mail response
yet. Of course he's busy, on the road a lot due to his day job, but
heck, the President is even busier, and he'll find the time to talk to
folks he wants to talk to!

Blast it, I'm getting my next 'bent, the HP Velo Spirit, from the dude
in PA! I might well cancel this order, too, anyway. Hmm...I wonder if
it'll involve the courts....
 
L

Leo Lichtman

Guest
"NYC XYZ" wrote: (clip) He's closing shop for good next month and he wants
to get rid of his stuff. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
In addition to all the inattention and irritation you are having, have you
considered that in a month he won't be there to do any follow-up adjustment
or repair under warranty?

Of course, if you bought the bike at a whopping close-out discount, that
could be why he is loath to do any free upgrade labor. But if you pay a
regular price, most dealers will do upgrades for the cost of the components.
Sometimes they keep the take-off parts as part of the deal, but what would
he do with loose parts if he's closing?
 
T

Tom Keats

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
"NYC XYZ" <[email protected]> writes:

> I'm actually on the verge of cancelling this order, despite having put
> down a deposit of $2,500. It's almost as if I'm bothering the guy!
> He's closing shop for good next month and he wants to get rid of his
> stuff. Thus, he ain't looking to do any more work. But from the
> beginning I've expressed my interested in upgrades, and it's only now
> that he's complaining about the extra work that would be involved! I
> shut him up by saying that I'd pay him for the labor, because I was
> gonna tip him like $50 as a thank-you and a "farewell" of sorts anyway,
> but the more I think about it the more it annoys me, and if he charges
> me more than $50 for labor I've a mind to just cancel. I gotta call
> him like five times before he responds, and only then if I'm dangling
> money or threatening to pull the order. Never had an e-mail response
> yet. Of course he's busy, on the road a lot due to his day job, but
> heck, the President is even busier, and he'll find the time to talk to
> folks he wants to talk to!


I urge you to research "lifestyle simplification", because I
think your true happiness may lie within it.

Of course I might be wrong. But what's to lose?


cheers,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca
 
N

NYC XYZ

Guest
Oh...hehe...just as an FYI to folks who may be in a similar situation:

There's something called a Form Regulation E available at your bank
which allows you to contest all charges, and it doesn't even have to be
a case of fraud or something like that; you can simply have had a
change of mind! They advise you to work it out with the merchant
first, but apparently you have the right to have your money returned,
pending an investigation by the bank.



NYC XYZ wrote:
> Hey, just visited the dealer again today to finalize the order, and I
> noticed that the kickstand for HP Velo's low-rider rack seems poorly
> thought-out! If you had panniers loaded, how's that kickstand supposed
> to work then? You'd not only have to stick your foot around and behind
> the panniers, but the kickstand doesn't seem like it'd have any room to
> actually "flip" out, since the panniers would be in the way!
>
> Another thing...does it make any sense that I'll be charged "labor" for
> upgrades? To my way of thinking, the upgrade price already includes
> labor and installation! After all, there wasn't a separate line item
> for "labor" for the bike, and it obviously needed putting
> together...also, I wouldn't buy the bike unless it is how I want it, so
> if you gotta install something in order to make the sale, well, why
> not?
>
> I'm actually on the verge of cancelling this order, despite having put
> down a deposit of $2,500. It's almost as if I'm bothering the guy!
> He's closing shop for good next month and he wants to get rid of his
> stuff. Thus, he ain't looking to do any more work. But from the
> beginning I've expressed my interested in upgrades, and it's only now
> that he's complaining about the extra work that would be involved! I
> shut him up by saying that I'd pay him for the labor, because I was
> gonna tip him like $50 as a thank-you and a "farewell" of sorts anyway,
> but the more I think about it the more it annoys me, and if he charges
> me more than $50 for labor I've a mind to just cancel. I gotta call
> him like five times before he responds, and only then if I'm dangling
> money or threatening to pull the order. Never had an e-mail response
> yet. Of course he's busy, on the road a lot due to his day job, but
> heck, the President is even busier, and he'll find the time to talk to
> folks he wants to talk to!
>
> Blast it, I'm getting my next 'bent, the HP Velo Spirit, from the dude
> in PA! I might well cancel this order, too, anyway. Hmm...I wonder if
> it'll involve the courts....
 
N

NYC XYZ

Guest
Leo Lichtman wrote:
> "NYC XYZ" wrote: (clip) He's closing shop for good next month and he wants
> to get rid of his stuff. (clip)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> In addition to all the inattention and irritation you are having, have you
> considered that in a month he won't be there to do any follow-up adjustment
> or repair under warranty?
>
> Of course, if you bought the bike at a whopping close-out discount, that
> could be why he is loath to do any free upgrade labor. But if you pay a
> regular price, most dealers will do upgrades for the cost of the components.
> Sometimes they keep the take-off parts as part of the deal, but what would
> he do with loose parts if he's closing?




Yes, I understand his POV, but I'm really appalled at his lack of
consideration of mine. I thought we'd be able to meet half-way. It's
starting to look more and more like what I'd learned in the Army...be
nice, and it's taken as a sign of weakness.

If he gives me any more grief, I swear I'm going over to PA for the
'bent. I just hope he'll hand over the deposit money without my having
to take him to court for it!
 
N

NYC XYZ

Guest
I urge you to study Marcus Aurelius, Erich Fromm, Khrisnamurti, and
Alan Watts, because I think you might have a mistaken notion of "true
happiness."

Your mileage may vary, but I doubt I'm out and out wrong.



Tom Keats wrote:
>
>
> I urge you to research "lifestyle simplification", because I
> think your true happiness may lie within it.
>
> Of course I might be wrong. But what's to lose?
>
>
> cheers,
> Tom
>
> --
> -- Nothing is safe from me.
> Above address is just a spam midden.
> I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca
 
R

RonSonic

Guest
On 5 Mar 2006 06:04:51 -0800, "NYC XYZ" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>I urge you to study Marcus Aurelius, Erich Fromm, Khrisnamurti, and
>Alan Watts, because I think you might have a mistaken notion of "true
>happiness."
>
>Your mileage may vary, but I doubt I'm out and out wrong.


I don't.

Dude, all you do is post these long griping posts about complications and
confusions in your life, your ponderings and wonderings about the benefits of
body armor or some other product from which you seek gratification and your
trials and tribulations with various tranactions.

Get a hobby like riding a bike. Blithering on the internet doesn't have the same
benefits.

Ron



>
>
>Tom Keats wrote:
>>
>>
>> I urge you to research "lifestyle simplification", because I
>> think your true happiness may lie within it.
>>
>> Of course I might be wrong. But what's to lose?
>>
>>
>> cheers,
>> Tom
>>
>> --
>> -- Nothing is safe from me.
>> Above address is just a spam midden.
>> I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca
 
P

Peter Clinch

Guest
NYC XYZ wrote:
> Hey, just visited the dealer again today to finalize the order, and I
> noticed that the kickstand for HP Velo's low-rider rack seems poorly
> thought-out! If you had panniers loaded, how's that kickstand supposed
> to work then?


Speaking from experience, pretty much the same way it does without the
panniers loaded. I've never had any trouble with it. It's almost as if
the designers know what they're doing!

> Another thing...does it make any sense that I'll be charged "labor" for
> upgrades?


If the bike is not delivered that way from the factory, I don't see why
not. After all, the stuff just doesn't magic its way on by virtue of
you buying it. But if it's an order from HP Velotechnik and they are
sending you a bike built up for you, /then/ it's clearly out of order.

> Blast it, I'm getting my next 'bent, the HP Velo Spirit, from the dude
> in PA!


Why don't you just take some time /riding/one before worrying about the
next addition. And if you do order another, be certain to specify the
Kitchen Sink option up front...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
J

Jeff Starr

Guest
On Sun, 05 Mar 2006 17:24:52 GMT, RonSonic <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 5 Mar 2006 06:04:51 -0800, "NYC XYZ" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>I urge you to study Marcus Aurelius, Erich Fromm, Khrisnamurti, and
>>Alan Watts, because I think you might have a mistaken notion of "true
>>happiness."
>>
>>Your mileage may vary, but I doubt I'm out and out wrong.

>
>I don't.
>
>Dude, all you do is post these long griping posts about complications and
>confusions in your life, your ponderings and wonderings about the benefits of
>body armor or some other product from which you seek gratification and your
>trials and tribulations with various tranactions.
>
>Get a hobby like riding a bike. Blithering on the internet doesn't have the same
>benefits.
>
>Ron
>
>

Ah, so you've noticed too.

Jeff
 
W

Werehatrack

Guest
On 4 Mar 2006 20:16:43 -0800, "NYC XYZ" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Blast it, I'm getting my next 'bent, the HP Velo Spirit, from the dude
>in PA! I might well cancel this order, too, anyway. Hmm...I wonder if
>it'll involve the courts....


My advice:

To minimize the potential damage, just freeze the whole thing where
it's at, take delivery of the bike as currently agreed upon, and move
on from there. Chances are good that if you tried to cancel the deal,
you'd have to fight to get the money back; no win there. If you
fiddle with the details any more, the seller's probably just going to
get increasingly hard to deal with. The deal doesn't seem like a bad
one as-is; I believe that you can minimize the potential losses by
taking delivery of what's been agreed upon, and leaving it at that.
Yes, you may end up fine-tuning the setup some more afterwards at
additional expense, but given what has transpired thus far, I'm pretty
sure that you'd have ended up doing that anyway.

Hindsight in choice of a vendor and product is particularly vulnerable
to the 20/20 factor. I've learned over the years that this can often
be avoided by waiting to make a purchase until after the "oooh, shiny"
phase has worn off. It's amazing how much less appeal the chrome has
when you've had a chance to find out what's really under it.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
 
N

NYC XYZ

Guest
Don't you think it's silly for you to gripe about my alleged griping?

I've been asking information about various products. What's wrong with
that?

Unless you ride every weekend, I probably ride more than you. I've put
700 miles on my Trek 1000c in two months! I just don't follow
Shimano-this and Bontrager-that, which is why I ask around.


You might try giving me some money if you're unhappy about my apparent
unhappiness.


RonSonic wrote:
>
>
> I don't.
>
> Dude, all you do is post these long griping posts about complications and
> confusions in your life, your ponderings and wonderings about the benefits of
> body armor or some other product from which you seek gratification and your
> trials and tribulations with various tranactions.
>
> Get a hobby like riding a bike. Blithering on the internet doesn't have the same
> benefits.
>
> Ron
 
N

NYC XYZ

Guest
Don't you think it's silly for you to gripe about my alleged griping?

I've been asking information about various products. What's wrong with
that?

Unless you ride every weekend, I probably ride more than you. I've put
700 miles on my Trek 1000c in two months! I just don't follow
Shimano-this and Bontrager-that, which is why I ask around.


You might try giving me some money if you're unhappy about my apparent
unhappiness.



RonSonic wrote:
>
>
> I don't.
>
> Dude, all you do is post these long griping posts about complications and
> confusions in your life, your ponderings and wonderings about the benefits of
> body armor or some other product from which you seek gratification and your
> trials and tribulations with various tranactions.
>
> Get a hobby like riding a bike. Blithering on the internet doesn't have the same
> benefits.
>
> Ron
 
N

NYC XYZ

Guest
Peter Clinch wrote:
>
>
> Speaking from experience, pretty much the same way it does without the
> panniers loaded. I've never had any trouble with it. It's almost as if
> the designers know what they're doing!


Well, that's what I figured, but seeing how the even dealer agreed with
my suspicions, I wanted to ask some more. HP Velo claims it's more
stable than the one in the rear...what do you think? Only stands to
reason, it seems, given that it's in the middle of the machine.

> If the bike is not delivered that way from the factory, I don't see why
> not. After all, the stuff just doesn't magic its way on by virtue of
> you buying it. But if it's an order from HP Velotechnik and they are
> sending you a bike built up for you, /then/ it's clearly out of order.


I dunno...it's a new bike, and I seem to recall from my days as a kid
that "industry practice" was to install whatever with the purchase of a
new bike, as a courtesy and also because it was another sale, after
all. Unless installing disc brakes and front suspension is considered
on the order of a major rebuild?

> Why don't you just take some time /riding/one before worrying about the
> next addition.


********. I wish I'd asked around about Northeast Recumbents; now that
I have, the opinion is 1:1 for and against -- not good odds for
spending US$4,000.00.

> And if you do order another, be certain to specify the
> Kitchen Sink option up front...


Make and model, please.

> Pete.
> --
> Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
> Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
> Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
> net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
N

NYC XYZ

Guest
Werehatrack wrote:
>
>
> My advice:
>
> To minimize the potential damage, just freeze the whole thing where
> it's at, take delivery of the bike as currently agreed upon, and move
> on from there.


Yes, only I'm such an ideologue, this would feel *wrong* to me, like
rewarding misbehavior.

> Chances are good that if you tried to cancel the deal,
> you'd have to fight to get the money back; no win there.


Actually, I've called the bank and they said there's something called a
Form Regulation E which would be filed, even in a case of my simply
changing my mind. An investigation will on determine that I'm not
trying to defraud anyone (say, having already taken receipt of
merchandise), but otherwise, the money is safe and totally refundable
BY LAW.

Just as an FYI for the record for posterity.

> If you
> fiddle with the details any more, the seller's probably just going to
> get increasingly hard to deal with.


I've expressed an interest in upgrades from the beginning. Two days
afer the test-ride I told him I wanted discs.

> The deal doesn't seem like a bad
> one as-is; I believe that you can minimize the potential losses by
> taking delivery of what's been agreed upon, and leaving it at that.


If it works out that way, yes. I'm in touch with other vendors to see
what they can come up with.

> Yes, you may end up fine-tuning the setup some more afterwards at
> additional expense, but given what has transpired thus far, I'm pretty
> sure that you'd have ended up doing that anyway.


That's the thing; I only went with Northeast Recumbents on account of
his physical proximity to my domicile; otherwise, I wasn't impressed by
his website or his lack of a return phone call or e-mail.

> Hindsight in choice of a vendor and product is particularly vulnerable
> to the 20/20 factor. I've learned over the years that this can often
> be avoided by waiting to make a purchase until after the "oooh, shiny"
> phase has worn off. It's amazing how much less appeal the chrome has
> when you've had a chance to find out what's really under it.


I'm happy with the HP Velo SMGTe. But the vendor is proving to be a
major PIA. To be fair, it appears that we both jumped the gun, in a
way. I'm looking to build my dream bike. He's looking to sell one
he's already built.

I've been talking about upgrades since the beginning. He's been
talking about closing out his inventory. Somehow we didn't appreciate
the implications of one another's statements.

And now there's no meeting half-way, it seems.

> --
> Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
> Some gardening required to reply via email.
> Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
 
N

NYC XYZ

Guest
Ah, still following me around, eh?



Jeff Starr wrote:
>
> Ah, so you've noticed too.
>
> Jeff
 
P

Peter Clinch

Guest
NYC XYZ wrote:

> Well, that's what I figured, but seeing how the even dealer agreed with
> my suspicions, I wanted to ask some more. HP Velo claims it's more
> stable than the one in the rear...what do you think? Only stands to
> reason, it seems, given that it's in the middle of the machine.


I don't have one on the rear so can't directly compare. Roos' Fiero has
a rear mounted one, and they both work where thought about, both will
overbalance if the other side is overloaded with a single bag, both will
sink into soft ground without a decent foot on. No one-sided stand is
perfect, but two-sided centre-stands are heavier and generally more
awkward to use.

> I dunno...it's a new bike, and I seem to recall from my days as a kid
> that "industry practice"


As I've pointed out already, "industry practice" has sufficiently large
variation within the cycle trade that how one dealer, or 99 dealers,
work is no sort of guarantee about another. Ultimately if you don't
like the business then don't do business with it, but decide that before
you give it a 4 figure deposit. I know that hindsight isn't mush use,
but it is usually right.

>> Why don't you just take some time /riding/one before worrying about the
>> next addition.

>
> ********.


Eh? What I'm saying is your recumbent experience is limited to a brief
test ride against a very large amount of reading of reviews and other
folks' experience, and the latter really doesn't count for much in
getting what *you* want. To find out what you want/need then get some
seat time in. You'll find out what sort of bike(s) you want and what
bits you want on it more reliably than any amount of daydreaming and
asking around once you've identified any real don't-touch lemons.

> Make and model, please.


Whatever it is, you want titanium...
But it might just turn out that experience with what is a sound bike
even in vanilla format may demonstrate to you that you don't atually
need to spend an extra grand on swanky stuff because the basic bike as
supplied does everything you need already.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
N

NYC XYZ

Guest
Peter Clinch wrote:
>
>
> I don't have one on the rear so can't directly compare. Roos' Fiero has
> a rear mounted one, and they both work where thought about, both will
> overbalance if the other side is overloaded with a single bag, both will
> sink into soft ground without a decent foot on. No one-sided stand is
> perfect, but two-sided centre-stands are heavier and generally more
> awkward to use.


Well, on an upright, I'm certainly used to the stand being near the
middle between the two wheels, that's all.

> As I've pointed out already, "industry practice" has sufficiently large
> variation within the cycle trade that how one dealer, or 99 dealers,
> work is no sort of guarantee about another. Ultimately if you don't
> like the business then don't do business with it, but decide that before
> you give it a 4 figure deposit. I know that hindsight isn't mush use,
> but it is usually right.


Luckily, by law I'm totally entitled to my money, no matter what (short
of having actually taken delivery...then it gets complicated). There's
a Form Regulation E here in the States which is filled out at the bank
and everything's taken care of, just so. Hopefully this guy will just
give the money back, of course, but if not, it's just another few days'
delay while the bank investigates.

But "industry practice" is crucial in gauging the relative fairness of
a transaction. Is it reasonable to be charged customs? Apparently,
not if the bike's been bought long before you showed up, and has been
serving as a test-ride model, even if it still looks brand-new. Is it
reasonable to pay full MSRP for last year's model? Apparently not. Is
it reasonable to charge labor and installation for upgrades on a new
bike that's being bought? Not really, but not unheard of, either,
though the charge is widely felt to be a cursory fee and not a
full-blown one, such as for a bike brought into the store...etc.

> Eh?


I mean that asking around doesn't hurt -- and, damn it, I should have
before getting with this present dealer, whose most favorable
supporters admit that they've not dealt with him beyond a spare part
once in a while. He was linked on a local 'bent club's website, and I
guess in my enthusiasm my "faith" in the club "automatically
transferred" onto him just like that...but now that I've actually asked
on the club list, folks are telling me that yeah, he's known to gouge
folks out for every little thing (he even tried to charge one outraged
fellow "labor" for changing the front wheel to a differently sized
wheel on a "new" bike he was thinking of buying -- said "new" bike
being the previous year's model, actually, and a test-ride floor sample
for which this dealer was insisting on full MSRP!!), etc.

So I should have kept up my instincts and kept asking around. Tsk,
tsk...it's just like in the Army, by gum -- you can fight your way to
the objective, only to slip on a banna peel in the middle of nowhere
and knock yourself out!

> What I'm saying is your recumbent experience is limited to a brief
> test ride against a very large amount of reading of reviews and other
> folks' experience, and the latter really doesn't count for much in
> getting what *you* want. To find out what you want/need then get some
> seat time in.


But I want the SMGTe, it was extremely comfortable and so that's that!

I want the Spirit, or something like it (like the Maxarya Ray 1-X)
'cause I imagine I'd love that kind of a seating position, too. Of
course, I will test-ride one when it comes down to actually purchasing,
but, you know, it's like what my art teacher used to wonder about me in
amazement...I can draw stuff without actually having to see it in front
of me, which he found pretty amazing but which to my way of thinking is
only logical, since I'm "reasoning it out" in my head, so what need
have I of a model? Likewise, I can "reason out" a lot before the
actual experience...of course, philosophically speaking, you can
protest that this colors the experience, and so am I really having the
experience or an experience of my expectations of the experience, et
cetera et cetera et cetera -- right, but, you know, like how they
"reasoned out" everything before sending a guy to the moon, well,
that's just what I'm doing here...you keep emphasizing the actual
experience, which seems besides the point of the activity I'm currently
engaged in, which is reconnaissance...I'm still reading up on the
recipe and you're complaining that I really must make the soup already!

> You'll find out what sort of bike(s) you want and what
> bits you want on it more reliably than any amount of daydreaming and
> asking around once you've identified any real don't-touch lemons.


There's a time for everything under the sun...a time for
trial-and-errors, and a time for research...you mind not blocking the
light?

> Whatever it is, you want titanium...


Hehe...I want hand-free motion sensors as well...but wherever does the
"hot" and "cold" inputs go???

> But it might just turn out that experience with what is a sound bike
> even in vanilla format may demonstrate to you that you don't atually
> need to spend an extra grand on swanky stuff because the basic bike as
> supplied does everything you need already.


You're totally right, Peter, but then someone pointed out that sooner
or later I'd "bomb" down some hill at 55mph, at which point disc brakes
would be helpful...also, the BROL guy found a significant difference
between the $$$ air shock and the factory spring shock. It's actually
"just" another $1,500.00 in upgrades...I'm looking forward to at least
a decade and a half of great riding on this beast, so it seems
worthwhile to me...besides, doctor's orders, after all! It's due to my
herniated vetebra that I got the fire to get into this in the first
place.

> Pete.
> --
> Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
> Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
> Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
> net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
P

Peter Clinch

Guest
NYC XYZ wrote:

> But I want the SMGTe, it was extremely comfortable and so that's that!


Great! But as well as deciding you want the bike based on trying it,
you're specifying all sorts of extras you haven't tried, to improve on
stuff you don't really know wehther needs improving for your uses or not.

> I want the Spirit, or something like it (like the Maxarya Ray 1-X)
> 'cause I imagine I'd love that kind of a seating position, too. Of
> course, I will test-ride one when it comes down to actually purchasing


There is a very big difference between "I will probably want something
like a Spiirt" and "I want something like a Spirit". Why decide apropos
of no experience when you can decide in light of the experience. If
you'll be testing it anywhay, why make your mind up first? Wiat until
you've had a few weeks seat time on the SMGT and then you'll be in a
much better position to work out what next than you are now. Patience!

> but, you know, it's like what my art teacher used to wonder about me in
> amazement...I can draw stuff without actually having to see it in front
> of me, which he found pretty amazing but which to my way of thinking is
> only logical, since I'm "reasoning it out" in my head, so what need
> have I of a model?


What's this thread about, nominally? It's a clear demonstration that
your "thought model" doesn't work as well as you've just suggested.
*That* is why you need a model!

> Likewise, I can "reason out" a lot before the
> actual experience...


And as this thread demontstrates, with a propstand that will apparently
not work with panniers, even though I know from years of personal use
that it works just fine, your reasoning out can be wrong. And as
previous threads have witnessed, such as not seeing that fork length is
dependent on wheel size, your reasoning out can be inadequate by virtue
of being more poorly informed than you suspect.

> I'm still reading up on the
> recipe and you're complaining that I really must make the soup already!


No, I'm saying make sure you know what strawberries taste like before
you make them into a soup. "I've heard that strawberries are very
nice!" may well be true, but it doesn't make them a sure thing for good
soup.

> There's a time for everything under the sun...a time for
> trial-and-errors, and a time for research...you mind not blocking the
> light?


Research first, then try. You're researching and then coming to a
preconceived conclusion based on other people's subjective needs and
wants, and you could find out for yourself before there's any need to
commit. The research is a better basis of what to try rather than what
to get, if you're in a position to try (and you are, or easily can be).

> You're totally right, Peter, but then someone pointed out that sooner
> or later I'd "bomb" down some hill at 55mph, at which point disc brakes
> would be helpful...


Why? First up, pro racers go down hills at those speeds on a routine
basis and they use mechanical rim brakes okay. And in any case, discs
are not intrinsically more powerful than something like HS-33 hydraulic
rim brakes at much lower price and rather easier maintenance

> also, the BROL guy found a significant difference
> between the $$$ air shock and the factory spring shock.


Are these the same guys who apparently love /everything/ they review to
the extent you wonder if you can trust them? What is "a significant
difference?". One significant difference between the grades of shocker
is the ability to fiddle with damping and rebound levels, but if you're
not really interested in fiddling (probably not if all you've ever done
is fix flats) then that's /not/ a good thing. And so on.

> It's actually
> "just" another $1,500.00 in upgrades...I'm looking forward to at least
> a decade and a half of great riding on this beast, so it seems
> worthwhile to me...


But why not see what "worthwhile" is based on what *you* find? It's not
difficult to put a new rear shocker in, just a couple of allen bolts and
in with the new one. But you can choose to do it based on actual
personal knowledge of need, rather than someone else's perception, who
has different priorities.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
M

Mike Berger

Guest
From several websites:
" In its simplest form, Regulation "E" states: "An account holder has
120 days to contact their bank to reverse any unauthorized electronic
debit to their account." This can be verified at your local bank or
Federal Reserve location."

Since the deposit was authorized, and may not have been an electronic
debit, it's not going to apply.

And seller's attitude notwithstanding -- you made a decision to do
business with him and paid a deposit. The deposit is often required
to insure that the dealer doesn't get stuck with merchandise he
doesn't want if the customer changes his mind. You may not be
entitled to it if he's already expended some costs on your order,
or if you signed a contract.


NYC XYZ wrote:
> Oh...hehe...just as an FYI to folks who may be in a similar situation:
>
> There's something called a Form Regulation E available at your bank
> which allows you to contest all charges, and it doesn't even have to be
> a case of fraud or something like that; you can simply have had a
> change of mind! They advise you to work it out with the merchant
> first, but apparently you have the right to have your money returned,
> pending an investigation by the bank.
>
>
 
M

Mike Berger

Guest
And you probably bought from a store that sold at retail, didn't
compete with Walmart and the Internet, and paid some kid $ 1.50/hour
(under the table if it was a small store) to assemble it.


NYC XYZ wrote:

> I dunno...it's a new bike, and I seem to recall from my days as a kid
> that "industry practice" was to install whatever with the purchase of a
> new bike, as a courtesy and also because it was another sale, after
> all. Unless installing disc brakes and front suspension is considered
> on the order of a major rebuild?