Hub gear question

Discussion in 'UK and Europe' started by Tony W, Sep 15, 2003.

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  1. Tony W

    Tony W Guest

    This may be better addressed to the techie NG but I will try here first.

    I have recently started to clean up a nice old Raleigh sit up & beg 3 speed with rod brakes. It is
    probably early 50's and in fairly good condition (the wheels are probably newish stainless steel
    jobs and clearly some spokes are newer than others but they run very true.

    Plastic pedals and a replacement gear shifter are obviously not original otherwise it all
    seems kosher.

    My problem -- the hub gear. It is marked Dyno 4 Four in a diamond and has a bunch of patent numbers
    (UK & US) stamped on the case -- plus a 51 (I guess the year) and a 2.

    It doesn't say Sturmey Archer anywhere though is clearly very similar.

    The oiler cap is brass.

    On the non-drive side there is a 'power bulge' of the type that might have housed a brake or dynamo
    -- though there is none.

    The gear change chain looks very SA and it seems to have three gears (by feel) but also has at least
    one dead spot where no gear is selected.

    Internal investigation is yet to start. I am a coward :~(

    The great Sheldon Brown does not mention it on his site.

    Does anyone have any ideas as to what it might be or where I might find some info on it?

    Tony
     
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  2. Pattledom

    Pattledom Guest

    Tony W wrote:
    > This may be better addressed to the techie NG but I will try here first.
    >

    <Snippage>

    >
    > Does anyone have any ideas as to what it might be or where I might find some info on it?
    >

    Sound like a Sturmey FG hub: Wide-ratio 4-speed with a hub dynamo. They were fairly standard fitment
    to the Raleigh "Superbe" range. It will work as a 3-speed with a 3-speed lever, but with the proper
    4-speed lever, you'll get an additional "extra-low" gear.

    --
    Andrew Pattle
     
  3. Pete Biggs

    Pete Biggs Guest

    Tony W wrote: ........
    > Internal investigation is yet to start. I am a coward :~(

    I don't blame you!

    > Does anyone have any ideas as to what it might be or where I might find some info on it?

    This site (or the man behind it if he's still around) may help: www.hadland.net - Bicycle gears

    ~PB
     
  4. Tony W

    Tony W Guest

    "Pete Biggs" <pLime{remove_fruit}@biggs.tc> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Tony W wrote: ........
    > > Internal investigation is yet to start. I am a coward :~(
    >
    > I don't blame you!

    I've had them appart -- and put them back together successfully -- before (when I was young and
    stupid) -- but I don't intend to strip this one to its last nut, bolt & epicyclic unless it is
    necessary. A good clean will probably do fine.

    > > Does anyone have any ideas as to what it might be or where I might find some info on it?
    >
    > This site (or the man behind it if he's still around) may help: www.hadland.net - Bicycle gears

    Thanks. My local library has a copy (well, at a remote branch) so I will order it later today.

    T
     
  5. Tony W

    Tony W Guest

    "Pattledom" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    >
    > Sound like a Sturmey FG hub: Wide-ratio 4-speed with a hub dynamo. They were fairly standard
    > fitment to the Raleigh "Superbe" range. It will work as a 3-speed with a 3-speed lever, but with
    > the proper 4-speed lever,
    you'll
    > get an additional "extra-low" gear.

    Thanks. I will investigate. Certainly calling it a 'four' might suggest an extra cog in there
    somewhere. I have an FW which I can compare it with.

    T
     
  6. Tony W

    Tony W Guest

    "Pattledom" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > Sound like a Sturmey FG hub: Wide-ratio 4-speed with a hub dynamo. They were fairly standard
    > fitment to the Raleigh "Superbe" range. It will work as a 3-speed with a 3-speed lever, but with
    > the proper 4-speed lever,
    you'll
    > get an additional "extra-low" gear.

    Well the power of the web.The 1951 Raleigh Catalogue
    http://retroraleighs.com/catalogs/1951-england/index.html appears to confirm your suggestion.

    I will need to read it carefully but a quick look at the pictures suggests mine is either a Dawn
    http://retroraleighs.com/catalogs/1951-england/pages/20-dawn.html or, more likely, a Superbe Dawn
    Tourist http://retroraleighs.com/catalogs/1951-england/pages/16-superbe-dawn.html (though the chain
    guard is awol and I don't remember any braze ons for it -- another mystery to investigate.

    Certainly the Dyno Four looks a fair bet -- see
    http://retroraleighs.com/catalogs/1951-england/pages/12-superbe-features-l.html.

    This raises an interesting further project. I have a Dynohub in my spares box. I wonder if it could
    be integrated with the gear hub on this machine. Sounds like a few hours of frolics and fun this
    winter (or next!!).

    Thanks (and thanks Peter) for the help
     
  7. Jt

    Jt Guest

    "Tony W" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "Pattledom" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > > Sound like a Sturmey FG hub: Wide-ratio 4-speed with a hub dynamo. They were fairly standard
    > > fitment to the Raleigh "Superbe" range. It will
    work
    > > as a 3-speed with a 3-speed lever, but with the proper 4-speed lever,
    > you'll
    > > get an additional "extra-low" gear.
    >
    > Well the power of the web.The 1951 Raleigh Catalogue
    > http://retroraleighs.com/catalogs/1951-england/index.html appears to
    confirm
    > your suggestion.
    >
    > I will need to read it carefully but a quick look at the pictures suggests mine is either a Dawn
    > http://retroraleighs.com/catalogs/1951-england/pages/20-dawn.html or, more likely, a Superbe Dawn
    > Tourist http://retroraleighs.com/catalogs/1951-england/pages/16-superbe-dawn.html (though the
    > chain guard is awol and I don't remember any braze ons for
    it --
    > another mystery to investigate.
    >
    > Certainly the Dyno Four looks a fair bet -- see
    >
    http://retroraleighs.com/catalogs/1951-england/pages/12-superbe-features-l.h tml.
    >
    > This raises an interesting further project. I have a Dynohub in my spares box. I wonder if it
    > could be integrated with the gear hub on this
    machine.
    > Sounds like a few hours of frolics and fun this winter (or next!!).
    >

    I think you have to have a special gadget to remove the working part of a SA dyno - something about
    not breaking the magnetic circuit. Check this out; there - what I also recall is that if you mess it
    up the dyno will work, but not very well.

    hmmm...

    Ok, I did a bit of work for you - quote follows:
    ================================
    > At this point, I'm interested in any tips or info on the device. I have the original instruction
    > booklet (including "don't remove the armature without a keeper ring", whatever that looks like).
    > But I'm somewhat curious about spokes, in view of two factors:

    This is a serious misnomer. It should read: DO NOT DISASSEMBLE without reading the manual. The
    stator must not be removed from the 20-pole magnet without at the same time pushing in an iron plug
    of the same diameter. The magnet will demagnetize itself instantly if the magnetic return path (the
    stator or "keeper") is broken even for a nanosecond. This continuity cannot be over emphasized. All
    20 poles must be in close proximity to a continuous magnetic return path at all times. Most Dyno
    Hubs have been disassembled by unwitting mechanics and their magnets are "flat" producing negligible
    power ever after.

    I built a magnetizer for re-energizing these magnets, having never found a hub that was not
    improperly disassembled. I have one unit here and gave one to Wheelsmith, back when we thought this
    might be a good idea. I gave up on it when I found the hub produced too little power for my desires
    even though it was remagnetized higher than originally. I compared it to a new one that Wheelsmith
    had in the box, similar to the one you found. There are good hubs in Europe, such as the Sachs hub
    and others.
    ==============================
     
  8. Tony W

    Tony W Guest

    "jt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:p[email protected]...
    > >
    >
    > I think you have to have a special gadget to remove the working part of a
    SA
    > dyno - something about not breaking the magnetic circuit. Check this out; there - what I also
    > recall is that if you mess it up the dyno will work, but not very well.
    >
    > hmmm...
    >
    > Ok, I did a bit of work for you - quote follows:
    > ================================

    Thanks. Actually, this is where I start with a little bit of an unfair advantage -- having designed
    electric motors for much of my life. Motors (and dynamos) of this vintage have Alnico type permanent
    magnets which can be demagnetised by looking at them in the wrong tone of voice. One reason the dyno
    hub is currently in the box is that I need to find the time to check to see if it is still
    magnetised -- as the article you found implies -- many have been taken apart by the careless or the
    curious in the past.

    Remagnetising is not a major problem -- but you do need either some fancy kit or a homebrew and a
    lack of fear of electricity :~) Whichever, you also need to build a special rig -- which can only be
    done if you have a drawing of the dyno or after you have taken it apart.

    Thanks for your work.

    T
     
  9. Tony W

    Tony W Guest

    "Tony W" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...

    > Thanks. Actually, this is where I start with a little bit of an unfair advantage -- having
    > designed electric motors for much of my life. Motors (and dynamos) of this vintage have Alnico
    > type permanent magnets which can be demagnetised by looking at them in the wrong tone of voice.

    PS -- modern dynamos with rare earth magnet materials are much more idiot proof.

    :~)
     
  10. Tony W wrote:
    > This may be better addressed to the techie NG but I will try here first.
    >
    > I have recently started to clean up a nice old Raleigh sit up & beg 3 speed with rod brakes. It is
    > probably early 50's and in fairly good condition (the wheels are probably newish stainless steel
    > jobs and clearly some spokes are newer than others but they run very true.
    >
    > Plastic pedals and a replacement gear shifter are obviously not original otherwise it all
    > seems kosher.
    >
    > My problem -- the hub gear. It is marked Dyno 4 Four in a diamond and has a bunch of patent
    > numbers (UK & US) stamped on the case -- plus a 51 (I guess the year) and a 2.

    Right, February.

    > It doesn't say Sturmey Archer anywhere though is clearly very similar.

    I'm sure it is, an FG.
    >
    > The oiler cap is brass.
    >
    > On the non-drive side there is a 'power bulge' of the type that might have housed a brake or
    > dynamo -- though there is none.

    It would have originally held a Dynamo, though it would also be possible to mount a brake unit
    in that hub.

    > The gear change chain looks very SA and it seems to have three gears (by feel) but also has at
    > least one dead spot where no gear is selected.

    It's a four speed. The "dead spot" is betwixt 3 & 4. The indicator chain is superficially similar to
    the more common 3-speeds, but the part inside the hub is differne (and pretty much irreplaceable, at
    least on my side of The Pond.

    > Internal investigation is yet to start. I am a coward :~(
    >
    > Sheldon Brown does not mention it on his site.

    Actually, I do. http://sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer.html#fg

    Good luck finding a matching 4-speed trigger control!

    Sheldon "Epicyclic" Brown +--------------------------------------------------+
    | My son George has written a Trombone Concerto | You can hear it at http://sheldonbrown.com/mp3 |
    +--------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
    Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
    http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
     
  11. Tony W

    Tony W Guest

    "Sheldon Brown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    snip

    > > It doesn't say Sturmey Archer anywhere though is clearly very similar.
    >
    > I'm sure it is, an FG.

    So am I now.

    snip

    > > The gear change chain looks very SA and it seems to have three gears (by feel) but also has at
    > > least one dead spot where no gear is selected.
    >
    > It's a four speed. The "dead spot" is betwixt 3 & 4. The indicator chain is superficially similar
    > to the more common 3-speeds, but the part inside the hub is differne (and pretty much
    > irreplaceable, at least on my side of The Pond.

    Thanks.

    > > Sheldon Brown does not mention it on his site.
    >
    > Actually, I do. http://sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer.html#fg

    Actually he does -- I found parts of Sheldon's site I didn't know existed after posting my first
    questions. And very good information it is too -- both on the SA hub and on the bike (which is
    clearly a Raleigh Superbe Dawn Tourist -- pretty much complete and original except that the chain
    case (I think replaceable) and the 'box' for the dry cell batteries (probably not replaceable) and
    dynohub & lights are AWOL. (And its been given a nasty paint job using some sort of flaky paint
    (Dulux emulsion??)

    > Good luck finding a matching 4-speed trigger control!

    I have one on a Moulton Deluxe -- also a renovation project -- and there was one on ebay a few days
    ago but it vanished -- I guess someone paid the asking price up front.

    T
     
  12. Tony W wrote:

    >>Sound like a Sturmey FG hub: Wide-ratio 4-speed with a hub dynamo. They were fairly standard
    >>fitment to the Raleigh "Superbe" range. It will work as a 3-speed with a 3-speed lever, but with
    >>the proper 4-speed lever,
    >
    > you'll
    >
    >>get an additional "extra-low" gear.
    >
    > Thanks. I will investigate. Certainly calling it a 'four' might suggest an extra cog in there
    > somewhere. I have an FW which I can compare it with.

    It is the same as an FW, except for a compact planet cage and different low-gear pawls.

    It can also be converted into a 5-speed if you can locate a bell crank from an S-5. That also
    permits the use of a standard AW-type indicator spindle & chain, and standard 3-speed trigger
    control rather than the extinct original items. (Best to use a derailer-type control for the
    bell crank.)

    Sheldon "Interplanetary" Brown +---------------------------------------------------+
    | In theory, there's no difference between theory | and practice; but, in practice, there is. |
    +---------------------------------------------------+, Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
    Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
    http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
     
  13. >>This raises an interesting further project. I have a Dynohub in my spares box. I wonder if it
    >>could be integrated with the gear hub on this machine.

    Yes.

    > I think you have to have a special gadget to remove the working part of a SA dyno - something
    > about not breaking the magnetic circuit. Check this out; there - what I also recall is that if you
    > mess it up the dyno will work, but not very well.

    As long as you don't remove the armature from the magnet, there's no need for the "keeper." There's
    no reason you'd ever _need_ to remove the armature from the magnet, so this isn't a problem in
    practice--just pull them out together.

    It actually requires some effort to separate them 'cause they're stuck together by the magnetism.

    Sheldon "Not To Worry" Brown +-------------------------------------------+
    | Good judgment comes from experience, | and experience comes from bad judgment. | --Fred Brook |
    +-------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone
    617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
    http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
     
  14. Tony W

    Tony W Guest

    "Sheldon Brown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > >>Sound like a Sturmey FG hub: Wide-ratio 4-speed with a hub dynamo. They were fairly standard
    > >>fitment to the Raleigh "Superbe" range. It will
    work
    > >>as a 3-speed with a 3-speed lever, but with the proper 4-speed lever,

    > It is the same as an FW, except for a compact planet cage and different low-gear pawls.
    >
    > It can also be converted into a 5-speed if you can locate a bell crank from an S-5. That also
    > permits the use of a standard AW-type indicator spindle & chain, and standard 3-speed trigger
    > control rather than the extinct original items.

    Short term I think I will just leave the existing (modern) 3 speed shifter in place and use it as a
    3 speed. Perhaps upgrading to 3 or 5 can be a winter project in a year or two.

    T
     
  15. Tony W

    Tony W Guest

    "Sheldon Brown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > As long as you don't remove the armature from the magnet, there's no need for the "keeper."
    > There's no reason you'd ever _need_ to remove the armature from the magnet, so this isn't a
    > problem in practice--just pull them out together.
    >
    > It actually requires some effort to separate them 'cause they're stuck together by the magnetism.
    >

    Thanks.

    T
     
  16. Pattledom

    Pattledom Guest

    Sheldon Brown wrote:

    > It can also be converted into a 5-speed if you can locate a bell crank from an S-5. That also
    > permits the use of a standard AW-type indicator spindle & chain, and standard 3-speed trigger
    > control rather than the extinct original items. (Best to use a derailer-type control for the
    > bell crank.)

    Surely not? This is a 1951 hub; I thought a four-speed had to be older than that (pre 1948) to
    convert to five speeds that easily. The later ones have ramped dogs to make changing gear easier. If
    you try and convert these to 5-speed it will be trying to drive on the ramped side of the dog in the
    extra-high gear - which will not work.

    --
    Andrew Pattle
     
  17. I observed:

    > > It can also be converted into a 5-speed if you can locate a bell crank from an S-5. That also
    > > permits the use of a standard AW-type indicator spindle & chain, and standard 3-speed trigger
    > > control rather than the extinct original items. (Best to use a derailer-type control for the
    > > bell crank.)

    Andrew Pattle wrote:

    > Surely not? This is a 1951 hub; I thought a four-speed had to be older than that (pre 1948) to
    > convert to five speeds that easily. The later ones have ramped dogs to make changing gear easier.
    > If you try and convert these to 5-speed it will be trying to drive on the ramped side of the dog
    > in the extra-high gear - which will not work.

    I've never worked on a 4 speed that old, most of my experience with FWs and FGs has been with '50s
    and '60s units. I assume you're speaking of the dogs on the primary sun pinion, a sort of
    castellated affair. It's true that the 4 speed version of the secondary sun pinion has bevels on one
    side of the dogs to facilitate shifting...but the 5-speed version has bevels on _both_ sides of the
    dogs. The bevels don't go deep enough down to cause the pinion to slip over the dogs on the axle.

    Whenever I've converted 4-speeds to 5-speeds, I've replaced the primary sun pinion with the S5
    type, because I always had them avaialable. However I have no doubt that the 5-speed conversion
    would work with the 4-speed primary sun pinion, only that it might require slightly more finesse to
    shift into top gear.

    Actually, something I've been meaning to try, is to make an FW into either a medidum ratio or an
    extra wide ratio 3 speed by removing one of the sun pinions. This would presumably cause a
    considerable reduction in friction, since the idle sun pinion wouldn't be uselessly rotating all of
    the time...

    Sheldon "Eager To Get My Hands On One Of The New Shimano 8-speeds" Brown Newtonville, Massachusetts,
    Yankeeland +------------------------------------------+
    | To invent, you need a good imagination | and a pile of junk. --Thomas Edison |
    +------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone
    617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
    http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
     
  18. Pattledom

    Pattledom Guest

    Sheldon Brown wrote:

    > I've never worked on a 4 speed that old, most of my experience with FWs and FGs has been with '50s
    > and '60s units. I assume you're speaking of the dogs on the primary sun pinion, a sort of
    > castellated affair.

    That's the one: K408

    > It's true that the 4 speed version of the secondary sun pinion has bevels on one side of the dogs
    > to facilitate shifting...but the 5-speed version has bevels on _both_ sides of the dogs. The
    > bevels don't go deep enough down to cause the pinion to slip over the dogs on the axle.

    I think the beveling is a bit deeper [1] on K408 than on the S5 one, which doesn't leave a lot of
    metal to be driving against.

    >
    > Whenever I've converted 4-speeds to 5-speeds, I've replaced the primary sun pinion with the S5
    > type, because I always had them avaialable. However I have no doubt that the 5-speed conversion
    > would work with the 4-speed primary sun pinion, only that it might require slightly more finesse
    > to shift into top gear.
    >
    > Actually, something I've been meaning to try, is to make an FW into either a medidum ratio or an
    > extra wide ratio 3 speed by removing one of the sun pinions. This would presumably cause a
    > considerable reduction in friction, since the idle sun pinion wouldn't be uselessly rotating all
    > of the time...
    >

    Now, that sounds like a good idea. I think the extra-wide [3] might be a little more involved -
    you're going to need something to keep the remaining sun engaged. But the medium [2] ratio one
    should work well. You should be able to throw the second spring away too, which must be a good
    thing. I think you'll just need to make a bush to stop the second sun dropping out of engagement...
    unless it's possible to do somthing clever with the K406 bush... like turn it round... ...
    ...suddenly I feel the need to go and dismantle an FW hub, I may be some time...

    [1] bother, I'm going to have to rummage though my box of bits now, to check.

    [2] P'raps we should call it "medium-high"; it's going to end up somewhere between an AM and an
    X (or BSA).

    [3] and, as Suffolk is not noted for it's mountainous landscape, I wouldn't feel the need to have
    one of these, I find an AW is wider than I really like.
    --
    Andrew Pattle
     
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