Hydration question

[D'ohBoy]

Hi!

On a 200k challenge ride (12,000 vert) yesterday and started to feel
weak and bad. Bonky, perhaps? No. Eating fairly well...prolly about
a couple hundred calories every hour and a half or so... hydrating
well, or so I thought.

Long story short, I end up walking one particularly nasty hill and
then coasting into a rest stop. Get there and still feel bad. Drink
about a half a water bottle waiting for the sag (I really feel crappy
at this point). Luckily, the sag wagon had a buncha garbage bags in
it cuz I ejected about a quart of water into one.

After I cleared all the water in my gut, I felt MUCH better. It's
almost as if my body stopped accepting water.

I don't think I was over-hydrating. I was drinking approximately a 28
oz bottle (one of those big ones) every 25 miles. As far as I know,
and as my riding buddy says, I am *ALWAYS* under-hydrated. It was
sunny and warm, around 80F, but not humid. Just can't figure out
what happened.

My bottles have been cleaned with bleach recently. I don't think I
ate or drank anything anyone else did not eat.

TIA

D'ohBoy

P.S.: I believe I was sufficiently trained for this and my pace was
well within the pace I rode when I finished this ride last year.

 

[Tom Kunich]

"D'ohBoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:151018fd-8d0d-4b54-9a16-ba0580830e0c@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
> Long story short, I end up walking one particularly nasty hill and
> then coasting into a rest stop. Get there and still feel bad. Drink
> about a half a water bottle waiting for the sag (I really feel crappy
> at this point). Luckily, the sag wagon had a buncha garbage bags in
> it cuz I ejected about a quart of water into one.
>
> After I cleared all the water in my gut, I felt MUCH better. It's
> almost as if my body stopped accepting water.

You were riding harder than your body could handle. Instead of pulling
liquids out of your stomach all of your blood supply was being used in your
legs to lungs. That was what is more commonly known as exhaustion.

 

[[email protected]]

On Jun 15, 3:10 pm, "D'ohBoy" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hi!
>
> On a 200k challenge ride (12,000 vert) yesterday and started to feel
> weak and bad.  Bonky, perhaps?  No.  Eating fairly well...prolly about
> a couple hundred calories every hour and a half or so... hydrating
> well, or so I thought.
>
> Long story short, I end up walking one particularly nasty hill and
> then coasting into a rest stop.  Get there and still feel bad.  Drink
> about a half a water bottle waiting for the sag (I really feel crappy
> at this point).  Luckily, the sag wagon had a buncha garbage bags in
> it cuz I ejected about a quart of water into one.
>
> After I cleared all the water in my gut, I felt MUCH better.  It's
> almost as if my body stopped accepting water.
>
> I don't think I was over-hydrating.  I was drinking approximately a 28
> oz bottle (one of those big ones) every 25 miles.  As far as I know,
> and as my riding buddy says, I am *ALWAYS* under-hydrated.  It was
> sunny and warm, around 80F, but not humid.   Just can't figure out
> what happened.
>
> My bottles have been cleaned with bleach recently.  I don't think I
> ate or drank anything anyone else did not eat.
>
> TIA
>
> D'ohBoy
>
> P.S.: I believe I was sufficiently trained for this and my pace was
> well within the pace I rode when I finished this ride last year.

How far did you get, and when you say one big bottle per 25mi, what
does that mean in terms of bottles per hour?

What and how much did you eat and drink before the ride? What was the
urination situation during the ride?

I think you over did it on the water.

Joseph

 

[Tim McNamara]

In article
<151018fd-8d0d-4b54-9a16-ba0580830e0c@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
"D'ohBoy" <[email protected]> wrote:

> I don't think I was over-hydrating. I was drinking approximately a
> 28 oz bottle (one of those big ones) every 25 miles. As far as I
> know, and as my riding buddy says, I am *ALWAYS* under-hydrated. It
> was sunny and warm, around 80F, but not humid. Just can't figure
> out what happened.

Hmm, assuming a rolling pace of 18 mph that's about 20 oz of water per
hour. The recommended fluid intake for marathoners is 12 ounces of
water per hour (see link below). IMHO you were probably overhydrating
and maybe became hyonatremic (low sodium) and/or hypokalemic (low
potassium). That will make you feel wonky. If your feet swelled at
all, then that's pretty much the clincher.

<http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/hydrationandfluid/a/Hyponatremia.htm>

How do you know that you are "always underhydrated?" Your body is very
good at preventing itself from developing dehydration- you keep sweating
for cooling but your kidneys reduce output temporarily. 80F is just a
warm day, not a hot day, and you should not have been sweating profusely
(except on climbs, of course, when you're going too slow to get much
evaporation as well as working hard). You've have probably been better
off eating a banana and something salty rather than drinking yet more
water.

<http://www.ultracycling.com/nutrition/hyponatremia1.html>

The research on the woeful effects of under-hydration on athletic
performance has been pretty much exclusively done at the behest of
Gatorade and similar companies. Any surprise about the conclusions they
reach?

By comparison, I did a windy, flattish three hour ride yesterday and
drank about 30 ounces of water and felt fine. CamelBak (Hydrate Or
Die!) would probably scream that I was in danger of crumbling into my
constituent minerals from dehydration.

 

[daveornee]

Hi!

On a 200k challenge ride (12,000 vert) yesterday and started to feel
weak and bad. Bonky, perhaps? No. Eating fairly well...prolly about
a couple hundred calories every hour and a half or so... hydrating
well, or so I thought.

Long story short, I end up walking one particularly nasty hill and
then coasting into a rest stop. Get there and still feel bad. Drink
about a half a water bottle waiting for the sag (I really feel crappy
at this point). Luckily, the sag wagon had a buncha garbage bags in
it cuz I ejected about a quart of water into one.

After I cleared all the water in my gut, I felt MUCH better. It's
almost as if my body stopped accepting water.

I don't think I was over-hydrating. I was drinking approximately a 28
oz bottle (one of those big ones) every 25 miles. As far as I know,
and as my riding buddy says, I am *ALWAYS* under-hydrated. It was
sunny and warm, around 80F, but not humid. Just can't figure out
what happened.

My bottles have been cleaned with bleach recently. I don't think I
ate or drank anything anyone else did not eat.

TIA

D'ohBoy

P.S.: I believe I was sufficiently trained for this and my pace was
well within the pace I rode when I finished this ride last year.

Electrolyte imbalance happened in a similar situation to me once... when I was "suffiociently" hydrated, but I finished the ride only to not feel like wanting any of the wonderful food available at ride's end.
25 years ago I lunched at a salad bar to find myself feeling lousy 90 miles later,,,... I attributed that time to something I ate.
As Tim stated, you would get some ideas from the color and quantity of urine output as you went.

 

[Lou Holtman]

D'ohBoy wrote:
> Hi!
>
> On a 200k challenge ride (12,000 vert) yesterday and started to feel
> weak and bad. Bonky, perhaps? No. Eating fairly well...prolly about
> a couple hundred calories every hour and a half or so... hydrating
> well, or so I thought.
>
> Long story short, I end up walking one particularly nasty hill and
> then coasting into a rest stop. Get there and still feel bad. Drink
> about a half a water bottle waiting for the sag (I really feel crappy
> at this point). Luckily, the sag wagon had a buncha garbage bags in
> it cuz I ejected about a quart of water into one.


200k miles? What is the challenge of that? I stopped races over 200 km a
long time ago to avoid those stupid drink and eating problems/hassles. I
rather go faster on a shorter distance with no food and drink issues
than those boring long distances rides where you always walk on
eggshells food and drinkwise.

Lou

 

[[email protected]]

On Jun 15, 7:15 pm, Lou Holtman <[email protected]> wrote:
> D'ohBoy wrote:
> > Hi!
>
> > On a 200k challenge ride (12,000 vert) yesterday and started to feel
> > weak and bad.  Bonky, perhaps?  No.  Eating fairly well...prolly about
> > a couple hundred calories every hour and a half or so... hydrating
> > well, or so I thought.
>
> > Long story short, I end up walking one particularly nasty hill and
> > then coasting into a rest stop.  Get there and still feel bad.  Drink
> > about a half a water bottle waiting for the sag (I really feel crappy
> > at this point).  Luckily, the sag wagon had a buncha garbage bags in
> > it cuz I ejected about a quart of water into one.
>
> 200k miles? What is the challenge of that? I stopped races over 200 km a
> long time ago to avoid those stupid drink and eating problems/hassles. I
> rather go faster on a shorter distance with no food and drink issues
> than those boring long distances rides where you always walk on
> eggshells food and drinkwise.
>
> Lou

You call 200km a long ride? ;-)

Joseph

 

[RicodJour]

On Jun 15, 5:08 pm, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jun 15, 7:15 pm, Lou Holtman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > D'ohBoy wrote:
> > > Hi!
>
> > > On a 200k challenge ride (12,000 vert) yesterday and started to feel
> > > weak and bad. Bonky, perhaps? No. Eating fairly well...prolly about
> > > a couple hundred calories every hour and a half or so... hydrating
> > > well, or so I thought.
>
> > > Long story short, I end up walking one particularly nasty hill and
> > > then coasting into a rest stop. Get there and still feel bad. Drink
> > > about a half a water bottle waiting for the sag (I really feel crappy
> > > at this point). Luckily, the sag wagon had a buncha garbage bags in
> > > it cuz I ejected about a quart of water into one.
>
> > 200k miles? What is the challenge of that? I stopped races over 200 km a
> > long time ago to avoid those stupid drink and eating problems/hassles. I
> > rather go faster on a shorter distance with no food and drink issues
> > than those boring long distances rides where you always walk on
> > eggshells food and drinkwise.
>
> > Lou
>
> You call 200km a long ride? ;-)

Uh oh. Here we go!

R

 

[[email protected]]

On Jun 15, 11:19 pm, RicodJour <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jun 15, 5:08 pm, "[email protected]"
>
>
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Jun 15, 7:15 pm, Lou Holtman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > D'ohBoy wrote:
> > > > Hi!
>
> > > > On a 200k challenge ride (12,000 vert) yesterday and started to feel
> > > > weak and bad.  Bonky, perhaps?  No.  Eating fairly well...prolly about
> > > > a couple hundred calories every hour and a half or so... hydrating
> > > > well, or so I thought.
>
> > > > Long story short, I end up walking one particularly nasty hill and
> > > > then coasting into a rest stop.  Get there and still feel bad.  Drink
> > > > about a half a water bottle waiting for the sag (I really feel crappy
> > > > at this point).  Luckily, the sag wagon had a buncha garbage bags in
> > > > it cuz I ejected about a quart of water into one.
>
> > > 200k miles? What is the challenge of that? I stopped races over 200 kma
> > > long time ago to avoid those stupid drink and eating problems/hassles.I
> > > rather go faster on a shorter distance with no food and drink issues
> > > than those boring long distances rides where you always walk on
> > > eggshells food and drinkwise.
>
> > > Lou
>
> > You call 200km a long ride? ;-)
>
> Uh oh.  Here we go!  
>
> R

Actually as a serious response to the "why bother with long rides/
races" vs short intense races, I feel marginally qualified to offer an
opinion on both. I like both, and see the appeal in both.

The problem with short intense races, is you get dropped if you aren't
fast enough, and riding by yourself when everyone else is mixing it up
in a sprint isn't that much fun. Rolling up to the finish asking who
won the sprint isn't very exciting. But when you are fast enough, and
you can be part of the action, it is amazing fun.

The problem with long races is they are hard and they hurt. But
usually they are done as more of a personal challenge, so not
finishing with the lead group isn't such a let down as in a short
race. Perhaps because of the potential for pain and the challenge, a
well executed long ride is immensely satisfying.

My two most recent races were 10km and 642km respectively. Quite
different animals, yet I see no reason the favor one over the other.

Joseph

 

[TBerk]

On Jun 15, 10:15 am, Lou Holtman <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> 200k miles? What is the challenge of that?


Yeah! Two Hundred Thousand Miles?, no problem!


TBerk
the only thing I hate is having to change my O2 bottles so often, and
wiping the condensation off of the helmet's faceplate....

 

[D'ohBoy]

On Jun 15, 8:46 am, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jun 15, 3:10 pm, "D'ohBoy" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Hi!
>
> > On a 200k challenge ride (12,000 vert) yesterday and started to feel
> > weak and bad. Bonky, perhaps? No. Eating fairly well...prolly about
> > a couple hundred calories every hour and a half or so... hydrating
> > well, or so I thought.
>
> > Long story short, I end up walking one particularly nasty hill and
> > then coasting into a rest stop. Get there and still feel bad. Drink
> > about a half a water bottle waiting for the sag (I really feel crappy
> > at this point). Luckily, the sag wagon had a buncha garbage bags in
> > it cuz I ejected about a quart of water into one.
>
> > After I cleared all the water in my gut, I felt MUCH better. It's
> > almost as if my body stopped accepting water.
>
> > I don't think I was over-hydrating. I was drinking approximately a 28
> > oz bottle (one of those big ones) every 25 miles. As far as I know,
> > and as my riding buddy says, I am *ALWAYS* under-hydrated. It was
> > sunny and warm, around 80F, but not humid. Just can't figure out
> > what happened.
>
> > My bottles have been cleaned with bleach recently. I don't think I
> > ate or drank anything anyone else did not eat.
>
> > TIA
>
> > D'ohBoy
>
> > P.S.: I believe I was sufficiently trained for this and my pace was
> > well within the pace I rode when I finished this ride last year.
>
> How far did you get, and when you say one big bottle per 25mi, what
> does that mean in terms of bottles per hour?
>
> What and how much did you eat and drink before the ride? What was the
> urination situation during the ride?
>
> I think you over did it on the water.
>
> Joseph

I was averaging around 14. In my defense, this really is a hilly
ride. And I am a big boy (overweight but not horribly).

So I was doing about 12 oz per hour. Had a coupla granola bars before
the ride, a gu. Urine was a light yellow.

Upon further reflection, I think that this was a mild case of heat
stroke. As I mentioned above, I have a higher volume to area ratio
than most (5'10, 200 lbs).

This has happened to me with varying severity on my first hot/long
rides of the year for a coupla years now. Guess I need to learn to
listen to my body better. I heard once a saying about repeating the
past or something.....

D'ohBoy

 

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 05:32:26 -0700 (PDT), "D'ohBoy"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>So I was doing about 12 oz per hour.
(snips)
>, 200 lbs).

That's not a lot of liquid in warm weather considering your size. For
me, at moderate intensity in moderately warm weather I try for a
minimum of 20oz per hour and I'm 40 lbs less.

I think you could drink more liquid and keep the liquid down if it had
salt in it.

 

[[email protected]]

On Jun 16, 6:35 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 05:32:26 -0700 (PDT), "D'ohBoy"
>
>
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >So I was doing about 12 oz per hour.
> (snips)
> >, 200 lbs).
>
> That's not a lot of liquid in warm weather considering your size. For
> me, at moderate intensity in moderately warm weather I try for a
> minimum of 20oz per hour and I'm 40 lbs less.
>
> I think you could drink more liquid and keep the liquid down if it had
> salt in it.

It doesn't sound like a liquid problem to me. It sounds more like he
was exhausted, as Tom suggested. After several hours of riding, even
with proper hydration and nutrition, the body starts getting very
tired. If you are not very fit and used to this sort of rides getting
sick after several hours on the saddle is not uncommon. Pushing the
body to the limit of an effort can make you sick and nauseated.

For some reason, it seems that when I get a little nauseated, the best
thing to do is to ride through it. Stopping and letting my heart rate
drop too much will make me feel worse. When I am ridding uphills with
groups, I always get dropped, since I am a little chunky. In the
effort to keep up, I always ride to the point where i sart to get
sick. If I slow down too much, I will start dry heaving. I need to
force myself not too lower my effort too much.

 

[D'ohBoy]

On Jun 16, 8:54 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jun 16, 6:35 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 05:32:26 -0700 (PDT), "D'ohBoy"
>
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >So I was doing about 12 oz per hour.
> > (snips)
> > >, 200 lbs).
>
> > That's not a lot of liquid in warm weather considering your size. For
> > me, at moderate intensity in moderately warm weather I try for a
> > minimum of 20oz per hour and I'm 40 lbs less.
>
> > I think you could drink more liquid and keep the liquid down if it had
> > salt in it.
>
> It doesn't sound like a liquid problem to me. It sounds more like he
> was exhausted, as Tom suggested. After several hours of riding, even
> with proper hydration and nutrition, the body starts getting very
> tired. If you are not very fit and used to this sort of rides getting
> sick after several hours on the saddle is not uncommon. Pushing the
> body to the limit of an effort can make you sick and nauseated.
>
> For some reason, it seems that when I get a little nauseated, the best
> thing to do is to ride through it. Stopping and letting my heart rate
> drop too much will make me feel worse. When I am ridding uphills with
> groups, I always get dropped, since I am a little chunky. In the
> effort to keep up, I always ride to the point where i sart to get
> sick. If I slow down too much, I will start dry heaving. I need to
> force myself not too lower my effort too much.

I do ~150 miles per week in similarly hilly terrain to the ride in
question and not JRA. I have ridden a number of rides (3-4)
approaching this difficulty already this year and believe that I was
sufficiently prepared. I have 1400 road miles prior to the ride and
4x/week 1 - 2 hour trainer sessions complete with intervals and heart
rate monitoring to insure the training value in the Jan - March time
period.

Interesting with the 'push thru it' strategem. I don't think that
would have been possible in this case.

D'ohBoy

 

[Tom Kunich]

"D'ohBoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:a6e6c04a-e399-4b7b-95ae-14af5b5b17af@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
> I do ~150 miles per week in similarly hilly terrain to the ride in
> question and not JRA. I have ridden a number of rides (3-4)
> approaching this difficulty already this year and believe that I was
> sufficiently prepared. I have 1400 road miles prior to the ride and
> 4x/week 1 - 2 hour trainer sessions complete with intervals and heart
> rate monitoring to insure the training value in the Jan - March time
> period.
>
> Interesting with the 'push thru it' strategem. I don't think that
> would have been possible in this case.

I don't think that your preparation was the problem. I think that you were
riding too hard to stay with someone else and that excess effort was the
cause of your problems.

 

[[email protected]]

On Jun 16, 2:35 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 05:32:26 -0700 (PDT), "D'ohBoy"
>
>
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >So I was doing about 12 oz per hour.
> (snips)
> >, 200 lbs).
>
> That's not a lot of liquid in warm weather considering your size. For
> me, at moderate intensity in moderately warm weather I try for a
> minimum of 20oz per hour and I'm 40 lbs less.
>
> I think you could drink more liquid and keep the liquid down if it had
> salt in it.

I agree, but I don't think size play as big a role as individual
variation. I too aim for about 20floz per hour in similar temps, yet
I'm 50-60lbs more (than you, not OP). I like having one bottle of
water and one of some sort of sports/electrolyte type drink. The water
to wash food down and rinse the palette, the sports drink for calories
and salts.

Joseph

 

[[email protected]]

On Jun 16, 3:54 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jun 16, 6:35 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 05:32:26 -0700 (PDT), "D'ohBoy"
>
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >So I was doing about 12 oz per hour.
> > (snips)
> > >, 200 lbs).
>
> > That's not a lot of liquid in warm weather considering your size. For
> > me, at moderate intensity in moderately warm weather I try for a
> > minimum of 20oz per hour and I'm 40 lbs less.
>
> > I think you could drink more liquid and keep the liquid down if it had
> > salt in it.
>
> It doesn't sound like a liquid problem to me. It sounds more like he
> was exhausted, as Tom suggested. After several hours of riding, even
> with proper hydration and nutrition, the body starts getting very
> tired. If you are not very fit and used to this sort of rides getting
> sick after several hours on the saddle is not uncommon. Pushing the
> body to the limit of an effort can make you sick and nauseated.

I don't think that level of fitness is that big a factor. I think
often people with lower fitness get caught out on long rides like that
because the have fuel/hydration issues due to their lack of experience
and planning, which is a result of their not hvaing had the chance to
get to know their own responses to the types of stress from these
rides. If you get nauseous, something is wrong.

>
> For some reason, it seems that when I get a little nauseated, the best
> thing to do is to ride through it. Stopping and letting my heart rate
> drop too much will make me feel worse. When I am ridding uphills with
> groups, I always get dropped, since I am a little chunky. In the
> effort to keep up, I always ride to the point where i sart to get
> sick. If I slow down too much, I will start dry heaving. I need to
> force myself not too lower my effort too much.

Riding through it is perhaps the best option, but I still think
getting nauseous is an indication of something wrong. I too have
plenty experience getting dropped (and as you well know this entails
lots of max effort trying to keep up) and nausea has never been a part
of it. That isn't to say I know everything there is to know about
hydration, just that at least by chance, I've never eaten such that I
had problems of that sort.

Joseph

 

[Tom Kunich]

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:d793986d-47f3-4c0f-8160-144aa13e9412@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>
> I don't think that level of fitness is that big a factor. I think
> often people with lower fitness get caught out on long rides like that
> because the have fuel/hydration issues due to their lack of experience
> and planning, which is a result of their not hvaing had the chance to
> get to know their own responses to the types of stress from these
> rides. If you get nauseous, something is wrong.

Nausea is a pretty clear indication that your body is putting more out than
it's taking in. And if you're eating and drinking and still getting nauseous
it can only mean that you're riding over your ability.

> Riding through it is perhaps the best option, but I still think
> getting nauseous is an indication of something wrong.

You cannot "ride through it" if it's caused by over-extending yourself.

 

[Tom Kunich]

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:6640d683-3839-452e-9c57-6db48d86a75e@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> I agree, but I don't think size play as big a role as individual
> variation. I too aim for about 20floz per hour in similar temps, yet
> I'm 50-60lbs more (than you, not OP). I like having one bottle of
> water and one of some sort of sports/electrolyte type drink. The water
> to wash food down and rinse the palette, the sports drink for calories
> and salts.

A guy told me that you can train yourself to ride with minimal fluids and
food intake. I tried it and it's true. I can do 50 miles on one bottle of
water and stopping for a coffee and donut. You do have to remember that you
require SOMETHING and you can't do it with nothing at all.

 

[Lou Holtman]

Tom Kunich wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:6640d683-3839-452e-9c57-6db48d86a75e@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> I agree, but I don't think size play as big a role as individual
>> variation. I too aim for about 20floz per hour in similar temps, yet
>> I'm 50-60lbs more (than you, not OP). I like having one bottle of
>> water and one of some sort of sports/electrolyte type drink. The water
>> to wash food down and rinse the palette, the sports drink for calories
>> and salts.
>
> A guy told me that you can train yourself to ride with minimal fluids
> and food intake. I tried it and it's true. I can do 50 miles on one
> bottle of water and stopping for a coffee and donut. You do have to
> remember that you require SOMETHING and you can't do it with nothing at
> all.
>


When you glycogen supply in your muscles and liver are up to their max,
you can ride for up to 2-2.5 hours (medium effort) without eating at
all. I do it all the time after work for my 75-80 km rides. I only drink
one bottle of something. When you are home you fuel up because the
your supply is empty.

Lou