> From: Tim Tyler <
[email protected]>
>>> 1. The genome of the children is (usually) the same as
>>> the genome of the parent.
> If you are talking "relative proportions" then the first
> condition being met is *extremely* unlikely as well.
If the individual replicators are spread uniformly over the
surface of the lipid bag, possibly because clumping too
close together tends to make them "starve" each other so
there's no natural selection favors those which do not take
any actions to prevent dispersion by simple diffusion
(brownian motion), and there are very large numbers of each
successful "species" of catalytic loop, then on the average
any split of the bag would yield approximately the same
proportions in each daughter bag. Not the exact same
proportions, but close enough that they'd be in the vicinity
of the same "attractor" distribution and remain close to it
over time. That's why I'm willing to stipulate that point
and spend my energy debating other more contested points.
> any information stored as "proportions" will be subject to
> a good deal of drift.
In the absense of an "attractor" distribution, I agree. But
somebody else presented that idea and I accept it as
reasonable. Summary of argument in favor: There's a mix of
nutrients available, which varies with location. In any
particular such mix, any replicator (catalytic loop) which
appears in numbers more than there's food for, will
"starve", and fail to reproduce as rapidly as another
replicator which appears in smaller numbers relative to its
food supply, so discrepancies from an exact match to food
available tend to be damped out, i.e. the proportions of
"species" of catalytic cycles tends to drift back toward
exact match with nutrients available.
But we're talking about very early pre-life that has just
barely managed to achieve fecundity greater than one in the
most optimal nutrient situation. Accordingly, only where the
nutrient mix is very close to optimum will these lipid bags
full of catalytic cycles be able to increase their numbers
and fill up that niche and overflow into neighboring less
optimal niches where they'l have fecundity less than 1 and
die out to be replaced by more overflow from the optimal
place. So not only will mix of replicators track mix of
nutrients, but only one particular mix of nutrients will
produce "life" in the sense of fecundity greater than one,
so only this one mix of nutrients will dominate the replicator-track-
nutrients process, so only one mix of replicators will
dominate the "gene pool", i.e. the combination of natural
selection of nutrient locales and tracking-the-food within
each locale is an attractor in this phase space.
I think it would be neat if somebody (perhaps a beginning
computer-software student wishing to tackle his/her first
nontrivial program) would run a simulation of this:
(1) Unspecified catalytic loops which are specified as to
their food (source of energy and chemicals) and
byproducts, with numbers as to how much of each
byproduct and how much of each of the catalysts
themselves are produced in each individual cycle through
the loop, and overall reaction rate as function of food
availability; No need in this initial simulation to
separate out the individual links in the cycle and
simulate how differences of food available make one of
the links dominate causing build-up of its products
followed by bottleneck (starved for food) for the next
link; Keep it simple this first time around;
(2) Statistical model of semi-turbulent ocean waters, with
shear (analagous to the more well known "wind shear"
experienced by airplanes) due to opposing
eddies/currents in close proximity, such that the longer
a bag is the more shear it's likely to experience from
end to end, and the skinnier a bag is the weaker it is
at the waist hence the more likely to pull apart with a
fixed amount of shear, and the instability whereby once
it starts to stretch out the waist gets thinner making
it easier to stretch, making it get skinnier faster,
causing a break-up in a very short time;
(3) Hypothetical source of various nutrients coming in from
fixed points around the boundary of the simulation, such
as from volcanic vents or exposure to sunlight, which
then get diffused via the semi-turbulent water model;
(4) Simulation of brownian motion of individual molecules
around surface of bag, or just a statistical
approximation to that to keep the simulation of
reasonable size;
(5) Direct calculation of statistics of replicators in each
daughter bag after it's pulled apart by shear;
(6) Reporting detailed statistics, listing for each
individual bag (of perhaps a few hundred) the replicator
statistics, and the physical location, and the nutrient
mix in that location, as a function of time;
(7) Reporting overall statistics, showing what clusters (in
phase space) of replicator-statistics exist
hierarchially, producing some sort of cluster diagram
such as dendogram or nearest-neighbor graph etc.
visually, whereby it's easy to see if there's an
attractor or not or maybe even two different attractors.
(Maybe we'll actually observe speciation of the bag
types, whereby one of the replicators in one of the bags
goes extinct but that bag without that nuisance
replicator is better than the complete bag in some micro-
niche, so that new reduced type of bag fills a niche not
occupied by the all-replicators type of bag. Or maybe
*all* bags suffer extinction of one or another
replicator, just by statistical drift, and those which
have lost one replicator occupy a different niche from
those which have lost another. Maybe we should
deliberately introduce bags missing one or another
replicator just to see if they can survive while all-
replicator bags are competing with them. Or maybe
deliberately modify *EVERY* bag to have some randomly-
chosen replicant go extinct, and see what happens.)
As for the "food" used by the replicants (catalytic loops)
in the above simulation, I imagine simple inorganic
chemicals, and a few single-carbon chemicals, all produced
or present in large quantities in presumed early-Earth
oceans/atmospheres: H2, H2S, H2O, CO2, CO, HCN, Na+, Cl-,
Fe++, Fe+++, SO3--, SO4--, H2C:O, HC:OOH, CH4, NH3, etc. and
dissolved&ionized forms of the gasses above such as NH3 ->
NH4+ + OH- and CO2 -> CO3-- + 2*H+. Does anybody have enough
chemical expertise to work out the redox potentials and
entropy of all these various ions/radicals at various pH, or
at least the redox&entropy difference where meaningful, or
know where the data is online, and thereby "predict" what
combinations of "food" could theoretically drive a catalytic
cycle at least, being driven forward by increase in entropy
while having either positive heat generation (exothermic) or
at least not too negative heat generation (just barely
endothermic)? Alternately, does anybody know where there's a
database for all Chemoautotrophic Bacteria (the ones that
can synthesize all the organic chemicals they need from truly-
inorganic and single-carbon-"pseudo-inorganic" chemicals)
listing precisely what the food requirements are for each
species? It would be nice if each species of hypothetical
catalyst-loop in our simulation would either be proven
theoretically possible from first principles, or be observed
as actually a valid food source by present-day
Chemoautotrophs. (There's another term for them, something
like Chemolithotroph or Lithoautotroph, I forget exactly,
which is a more accurate term.)
> Maynard-Smith (or more to the point, E. Szathmary)
> attempted to address this issue by using particular
> (discrete) replicators as the entities involved - and by
> having a small number of them.
With actual catalytic-loops known, or just hypothesized ones
that process a given kind of food to produce a given kind of
waste? (Just curious, not germain to the current debate at
the moment.)
Did they consider my argument for distribution tracking
nutrients available, due to fecundity of individual
replicant being directly proportional to food available per
unit replicant, and only one narrow range of nutrient-mix
yielding fecundity greater than zero, hence an attractor?
> In this way is is possible to make a semi-plausible story
> about deviations from even assortment between offspring
> being compensated for by selection among the offspring.
It may take a long while for differences in replicant
distribution from one bag to another to make one bag survive
much better or grow much faster than the other, and
meanwhile differential reproduction of individual replicants
within each single bag should damp out the distribution
differences, so I don't think differential growth on a whole-
bag basis will have much of an effect, so long as no bag has
totally lost one or another of the replicants.
> However, without this the whole idea is a disaster zone -
> and even with it the quantity of selection required to
> maintain things soon goes through the roof.
With my model, I don't see any need for selection at all,
merely growth of individual replicants tracking available
food supply, to maintain "things" (optimal mix of replicants
in each bag). Please explain your argument better, unless
you are abandoning that line of argument now.
> The usual way out for the autocatalytic folk is to say
> that proportions don't matter much - it's the presense (or
> absense) of particular chemicals that matters - not their
> relative proportions.
In the very short term, a deficiency in quantity of one
particular replicant might slow down growth of that
particular bag, but over medium-time that replicant has so
much food it grows faster than the rest of its bagmates, so
after a while this bag is doing just as well as others. So I
agree with them, and disagree with you. In the long term
it's the presense or absense, not the initial quantity after
a bag-splitting, that is important.
> Without template replication, the landscape looks a lot
> like a single big basin with "tars" written on it.
And how would this, if true, prevent a single "species" of
bag, i.e. all bags with exactly the same *set* of
replicators in it, where the statistics of those replicators
track available food, from surviving a very long time by
repeatedly growing then tearing apart due to shear then
having statistics of replicators drift back toward optimum
by tracking food available?
An idea that came to me just now: Initially the production
of lipids, which stick together to form bags, would be
totally natural, unrelated to any catalytic loops. So the
growth of the bags physically, by new lipids bumping into
them and sticking, and the replication of the various
catalytic loops residing on the inner and outer surfaces of
the bags, would be essentially independent processes. If the
replicants breed too quickly, they might fill up all
available space on the lipid bag and be too cramped to breed
any more, waiting for the bag to grow before then can once
again breed. But if the bag grows more quickly than the
replicants, there'd be lots of empty space available for
replicants to breed. So maybe the replicants (catalytic
loops) actually track both available food and available
space on the bag, achieving both an optimum total density on
the bags and an optimum relative distribution among the
various species of replicants. Note that cramping can be two
factors: Too cramped and even if a catalytic loop reproduces
there's no place to put the result so one result or another
is physically dislodged from the bag; Food diffusing into
the bag is probably fixed per unit surface area of bag, so
crowding of replicants along surface results in less food
per molecule of replicant. If the diffusion rate of food is
very large, dislodging would be the dominant effect, whereas
if the food is scarse then food per unit surface area
divided by density of replicants per unit surface area would
be the dominant effect. If dislodging is dominant, then this
would cause direct compeition between different replicators
even where they use different food so aren't competing for
available food. If food scarcity is dominant, then any two
species of replicator that have even one of their several
nutritional requirements in common, or at least have their
single limiting nutrient in common, would compete with each
other for that common nutrient, and probably one or the
other go extinct within a given bag. So I expect such common-scarce-
nutrient situations to be short-lived, so in the long run
each scarce nutrient will be required by exactly one species
of replicant. But over *very* long times, the scarcity of
nutrients will change, so what wasn't scarce at one time,
will become scarce, so then any replicants which share this
newly-scarce nutrient will compete and one or other go
extinct. So over very long times, the various replicants
will weed out nearly all shared-nutrient problems. But over
such very long times, new replicators should randomly come
into being and join the lipid-bag ecosystems, so maybe
nutrients that were scarce but aren't any more will once
again have multiple replicants consuming them.
It seems at this point in our discussion that the status quo
will be a single species of lipid bag, containing several
species of individual replicants, and whenever speciation at
the bag level occurs, due to extinction of one or another
replicant in different environments, as soon as these
differing bag-species happen to get into an environment
where their union survives better than either alone, they
will in fact accidently merge and then breed better than non-
merged originals, so all speciation at the bag level will be
only temporary. So really there'll be only a single
permanent species of bag for all the millenia until template
replication starts happening. So maybe we have the answer to
how single-species lipid-bag ecosystem-of-catalytic-loops
life came into being, and how template replication evolved
to our present-day life, and the only "missing link" in our
abiogenesis "just so story" is how lipid-bag life ever
acquired template replication?