Hypertrophy on the bike - possible? (very long)



velomanct

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WarrenG said:
I've been faster than lots of guys who were bigger than me and I have been slower than some guys who were smaller. I have learned not to judge a sprinter by how they look.

Go to analyticcycling.com and do some calculations for power and speed using different body sizes. You'll see part of why a smallish guy can beat a bigger guy in a sprint even though their power can be 100+ watts different. There was a smalish Japanese guy at Masters Worlds last year who was really fast, in part because he had his chin only 2 inches above his bars while going 38+mph.

Try putting 10 pounds on your legs and then going for a little spin on your trainer at say, 100 rpm's.

Like I've said, don't worry about adding weight of any particular amount, just focus doing the training that will make you fast. If you gain 10 pounds or no pounds doesn't determine whether you're fast or slow.

And if you want to be a good sprinter you're going to have to figure out how to sprint fast on the flats, not just on hills.

LOL, putting 10lb weights on your legs is nowhere near the same as having 10lbs of addition MUSCLE on your legs. If it were, then those 10lb iron weights would be power your legs. Dude.... lame arguement

I know exactly what the different power requirements are for additional weight, and yes, I use analyticcycling all the time. You must not have read my post, because I CLEARLY said how I was FASTER, even UPHILL when I was 15lbs heavier. Geee, I wonder why? Maybe because of the extra muscle?


You do have a point about not making of goal of putting weight on. True. But if I don't gain any weight, I will be preventing any muscle gain.

You keep bringing up these examples of how small guys are just as fast. But, OVERALL, sprinters are usually bigger than endurance athletes. When I look at Tyler Hamilton, I don't see a powerful sprinter, do you? Your arguement has no weight.

I am not saying a smaller rider can't be a good sprinter. I am saying that it is less likely. AGAIN, there are EXCEPTIONS. Stop bringing up exceptions.
 

Billsworld

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WarrenG said:
Maybe. Think about the effort you use to accelerate rapidly from 25mph to 35mph and compare that to the effort to come out of a draft at 34mph and then accelerate up to 37mph. Also consider how many races you'll win with a brief peak at 37mph vs. a longer sprint at 36mph.
I will have to yeild to your experince on that one.:) Most of my current work centers around standing starts in a 52x15 or 17 uphill. 20 sec effort. Powertap always gives me more mph for more peak power.Jumps are the same for me. Fortunately for veloman, he has more years to do trial and error on his training than we do. .....On another note, have you ever tried upper rpm ,out of the saddle with your head low ? ( the whole 200 standing) 6002? Thanks BP
 

velomanct

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Why did Blatchford put on 20lbs of muscle when he was ~17? The next year he was the fastest American in the 200meter.

yeh guys, he would of been even faster if he never gained that 20lbs of muscle.... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 

Billsworld

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velomanct said:
Why did Blatchford put on 20lbs of muscle when he was ~17? The next year he was the fastest American in the 200meter.

yeh guys, he would of been even faster if he never gained that 20lbs of muscle.... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
I will give it one more try... I think you would be better served to go for 5 lbs for 4 years rather than a bunch now. The type of training(and eating) required for size is constantly walking the thin line between overtraining and not. Powerlifting does require lots of rest too, but it is more neuromuscular as in sprinting. The net result will be slower gains in mass, but more power. Gains in the squat, dl, cleans etc.. WILL give you mass if you eat for it. No pretty bicepts though:)
 

WarrenG

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velomanct said:
You keep bringing up these examples of how small guys are just as fast. But, OVERALL, sprinters are usually bigger than endurance athletes. When I look at Tyler Hamilton, I don't see a powerful sprinter, do you? Your arguement has no weight.

70kg or less...
Pettachi, McEwen, Allan Davis, Bettini, Jalabert (previous version), yadda, yadda, yadda.
 

velomanct

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Billsworld said:
I will give it one more try... I think you would be better served to go for 5 lbs for 4 years rather than a bunch now. The type of training(and eating) required for size is constantly walking the thin line between overtraining and not. Powerlifting does require lots of rest too, but it is more neuromuscular as in sprinting. The net result will be slower gains in mass, but more power. Gains in the squat, dl, cleans etc.. WILL give you mass if you eat for it. No pretty bicepts though:)
I am going to forget this whole weight thing. I am going lift, and whatever happens happens. I'm not going to get on the scale and obsess over weight. I won't purposely over-eat or 'bulk'.
 

velomanct

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WarrenG said:
70kg or less...
Pettachi, McEwen, Allan Davis, Bettini, Jalabert (previous version), yadda, yadda, yadda.
And all of them would have no chance against a real sprinter in a drag race, one on one.

Where are all the other members who have previously said that....Ric? I know there is a bunch of you who would agree with me.
 

WarrenG

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Billsworld said:
.....On another note, have you ever tried upper rpm ,out of the saddle with your head low ? ( the whole 200 standing) 6002? Thanks BP

I can't stay out of the saddle for the whole 200m because rpm's keep increasing. Once I get to about 130-140 rpm's I can increase rpm's up from there only while in the saddle. I guess I could try them uphill but I like the practice of getting the rpm's up to a point and then easing into the saddle smoothly and then adding a few more rpm's from there. I'm working on the head low thing, but if your head is low while out of the saddle there can be steering and balance problems, especially if some guy is bumping into your side at the time or trying to hook you.
 

Billsworld

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WarrenG said:
I can't stay out of the saddle for the whole 200m because rpm's keep increasing. Once I get to about 130-140 rpm's I can increase rpm's up from there only while in the saddle. I guess I could try them uphill but I like the practice of getting the rpm's up to a point and then easing into the saddle smoothly and then adding a few more rpm's from there. I'm working on the head low thing, but if your head is low while out of the saddle there can be steering and balance problems, especially if some guy is bumping into your side at the time or trying to hook you.
Thats what i was looking for. 130-140 is fast out of the seat. gets a little sccary over 30 mph with keeping the head low . Thanks Warren
 

acoggan

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velomanct said:
No, not a good source other than a magazine article. I read that his peak was 1800w, and he would do 1600w over the final 10 seconds. That would equal 1700w for 5 seconds, at 73kgs, well, it's 23.3w/kg. Just a rough estimate.

Is Pettachi really that light? That would make him essentially the same as Armstrong when the latter was at his "fighting weight".
 

Billsworld

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acoggan said:
Well, fancy that! However, is it possible that weight is inaccurate? Pettachi certainly doesn't look like somebody with a BMI of only 20.4 (FWIW, mine is 20.3, and most people would describe me as a beanpole).
Ill cut through it. I always thought those numbers were a little exagerated....max watts per kg same as Marty Nothstien Hmmm
 

WarrenG

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Billsworld said:
Ill cut through it. I always thought those numbers were a little exagerated....max watts per kg same as Marty Nothstien Hmmm

Remember it's not absolute max watts, it's watts per kg, and since Pettachi weighs around 30kg less than Nothstein at his peak there could be a very large difference in absolute watts and still have nearly equal watts per kg.
 

Billsworld

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WarrenG said:
Remember it's not absolute max watts, it's watts per kg, and since Pettachi weighs around 30kg less than Nothstein at his peak there could be a very large difference in absolute watts and still have nearly equal watts per kg.
Woulnt the net result be near the same in sprinting ability. Sounds like mr.P could take 6 months off to compete in world cup match sprint, then the hour record and back to TDF. Sounds like Eddie Merkx reborn, but better. That came off arrogant. Dont mean to sound that way.
 

velomanct

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acoggan said:
Is Pettachi really that light? That would make him essentially the same as Armstrong when the latter was at his "fighting weight".
Well, I can't garantee what I have read in a magazine, but I believe it. At 6', he looks around 160lbs, he's not as big as Cipo or Thor.
 

WarrenG

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Billsworld said:
Woulnt the net result be near the same in sprinting ability. Sounds like mr.P could take 6 months off to compete in world cup match sprint, then the hour record and back to TDF. Sounds like Eddie Merkx reborn, but better. That came off arrogant. Dont mean to sound that way.


On the track he would need to learn new tactics. More important though is that watts/kg are pretty much irrelevant on the track because they don't have to climb hills. Watts relative to drag is a factor, but not too much. Max speed and sustaining very high speed matter more than how fast he can go and still get over the climbs.

IOW, a smaller guy doing 1800 watts probably won't beat the bigger guy doing 2200 watts. In road races the guys who can do the 2200 watts have a much harder time getting to the finish feeling fresh enough to generate their 2200 watts. Cipo had very high peak power but he couldn't always get himself to the finish feeling fresh enough to show that. Jan Kirsipu can also do very high power but he struggles to get over a cat 3 climb with the leaders.

As a practical matter, the training that it takes to produce really high power will take time and energy away from being able to get to the finish of a 200k road race.

Pro roadies doing track events? Many team directors don't see the value in a guy who can win a world cup race fooling around on the track just to get a relatively anonymous 3rd at the track world championships.

In an example of Pettachi, his team director (at the time) said, we will not work to support somebody who can finish 3rd or 4th overall in the Giro because (we think) the public doesn't care. We will instead focus our resources on winning stages.
 

velomanct

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WarrenG said:
Remember it's not absolute max watts, it's watts per kg, and since Pettachi weighs around 30kg less than Nothstein at his peak there could be a very large difference in absolute watts and still have nearly equal watts per kg.
That is correct. At sprint speeds, watts/kg don't matter a whole lot. You need the absolute watts to push through the wind.

That is one reason why the 5 second column is not perfect. I bet you could train a 120 rider to go well over 24w/kg.....Allan Davis? 24w/kg at that wieght is only 1300watts.
 

WarrenG

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velomanct said:
That is correct. At sprint speeds, watts/kg don't matter a whole lot. You need the absolute watts to push through the wind.

That is one reason why the 5 second column is not perfect. I bet you could train a 120 rider to go well over 24w/kg.....Allan Davis? 24w/kg at that wieght is only 1300watts.

Allan Davis wins some bunch sprints. This week I think.