Hypertrophy on the bike - possible? (very long)



acoggan

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WarrenG said:
watts/kg are pretty much irrelevant on the track because they don't have to climb hills. Watts relative to drag is a factor, but not too much. Max speed and sustaining very high speed matter

CdA correlates closely with height, as does mass. Thus, even if you're not climbing any hills, watts/kg is indicative your ability to overcome wind resistance, and thus go fast. Moreover, your power in watts/kg directly determines the rate at which you can accelerate your mass, e.g., from a standing start such as in the kilo, 500 m, or team sprint, or even during a flying 200 m and a match sprint (although during the latter two events more of the power you generate when accelerating goes to overcoming wind resistance). The upshot of all of the above is that power in watts/kg most definitely does matter on the track...which is why is if you want to be World Champion in, e.g., the match sprint, you need to be generating close to 24 W/kg, why the AIS (among others) uses tests of short-term power as a means of identifying talented athletes for further attention, etc., etc., etc.
 

WarrenG

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acoggan said:
CdA correlates closely with height, as does mass. Thus, even if you're not climbing any hills, watts/kg is indicative your ability to overcome wind resistance, and thus go fast. Moreover, your power in watts/kg directly determines the rate at which you can accelerate your mass, e.g., from a standing start such as in the kilo, 500 m, or team sprint, or even during a flying 200 m and a match sprint (although during the latter two events more of the power you generate when accelerating goes to overcoming wind resistance). The upshot of all of the above is that power in watts/kg most definitely does matter on the track...which is why is if you want to be World Champion in, e.g., the match sprint, you need to be generating close to 24 W/kg, why the AIS (among others) uses tests of short-term power as a means of identifying talented athletes for further attention, etc., etc., etc.

Of the 10+ match sprints you may have seen in LA, how many were decided by a strong jump where watts/kg were of critical importance?

How many more watts does a 100kg rider have to use to accelerate from 25mph to 40mph as compared to a 90 kg rider if their drag is at least near equal and the time to do so is equal? How about when they're both going down the banking during that acceleration?

How many more average watts is needed for the heavier rider when these two riders do a standing start of 250m and difference in drag is not considered?
 

velomanct

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That is true. But if you have a 120lb sprinter doing 24w/kg, they aren't going to come close to a 200lb sprinter doing 24w/kg.


The bottom line is, none of us can make blanket statements, such as "watts/kg is the most important" or "watts/kg do not matter at all". The answer is somewhere in
between.

Seeing as there is no other practical measurement that can be used to evaluate a riders ability (other than their times, of course), we can use watts/kg.
 

Billsworld

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velomanct said:
That is true. But if you have a 120lb sprinter doing 24w/kg, they aren't going to come close to a 200lb sprinter doing 24w/kg.


The bottom line is, none of us can make blanket statements, such as "watts/kg is the most important" or "watts/kg do not matter at all". The answer is somewhere in
between.

Seeing as there is no other practical measurement that can be used to evaluate a riders ability (other than their times, of course), we can use watts/kg.
If I am not mistaken what you and Warren are saying is that after a certain point its just just overcoming frontal area/drag . At that point watts per kg are of less importance, and and just total watts and leg speed rule the day(and tactics). Those watts would obviously be much lower than peak considering the point in the race. I think that sounds right, but your trying to overcome increasing drag with decreasing watts. Wouldnt the big peak at the jump always give more top end mph for the end of the sprint. Thats the way it always is for me... More peak more speed
 

Billsworld

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velomanct said:
That is true. But if you have a 120lb sprinter doing 24w/kg, they aren't going to come close to a 200lb sprinter doing 24w/kg.


The bottom line is, none of us can make blanket statements, such as "watts/kg is the most important" or "watts/kg do not matter at all". The answer is somewhere in
between.

Seeing as there is no other practical measurement that can be used to evaluate a riders ability (other than their times, of course), we can use watts/kg.
If I am not mistaken what you and Warren are saying is that after a certain point its just just overcoming frontal area/drag . At that point watts per kg are of less importance, and and just total watts and leg speed rule the day(and tactics). Those watts would obviously be much lower than peak considering the point in the race. I think that sounds right, but your trying to overcome increasing drag with decreasing watts. Wouldnt the big peak at the jump always give more top end mph for the end of the sprint. Thats the way it always is for me... More peak more speed
 

velomanct

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Billsworld said:
If I am not mistaken what you and Warren are saying is that after a certain point its just just overcoming frontal area/drag . At that point watts per kg are of less importance, and and just total watts and leg speed rule the day(and tactics). Those watts would obviously be much lower than peak considering the point in the race. I think that sounds right, but your trying to overcome increasing drag with decreasing watts. Wouldnt the big peak at the jump always give more top end mph for the end of the sprint. Thats the way it always is for me... More peak more speed
A big peak won't simply get you high speed. Although it will get you to speed the quickest. The key to getting the highest speed is to go 100% from the start. If you only give it 90% in the begining, it's impossible to make up for that lose in acceleration, during such a short effort. There is a difference between 4 second sprint intensity, and 8 second sprint intensity. When I go for the highest peak possible, I try to get every last bit of energy out of myself during those 4 seconds. For someone who has not been sprinting a lot, this is very hard to gauge.

Bottom line is, there are many different intensity levels for sprints. IMO, their is no pacing when you are sprinting for a period of under 20 seconds.
 

velomanct

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Billsworld said:
If I am not mistaken what you and Warren are saying is that after a certain point its just just overcoming frontal area/drag . At that point watts per kg are of less importance, and and just total watts and leg speed rule the day(and tactics). Those watts would obviously be much lower than peak considering the point in the race. I think that sounds right, but your trying to overcome increasing drag with decreasing watts. Wouldnt the big peak at the jump always give more top end mph for the end of the sprint. Thats the way it always is for me... More peak more speed
A big peak won't simply get you high speed. Although it will get you to speed the quickest. The key to getting the highest speed is to go 100% from the start. If you only give it 90% in the begining, it's impossible to make up for that lose in acceleration, during such a short effort. There is a difference between 4 second sprint intensity, and 8 second sprint intensity. When I go for the highest peak possible, I try to get every last bit of energy out of myself during those 4 seconds. For someone who has not been sprinting a lot, this is very hard to gauge.

Bottom line is, there are many different intensity levels for sprints. IMO, their is no pacing when you are sprinting for a period of under 20 seconds.
 

acoggan

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WarrenG said:
Of the 10+ match sprints you may have seen in LA, how many were decided by a strong jump where watts/kg were of critical importance?

How many more watts does a 100kg rider have to use to accelerate from 25mph to 40mph as compared to a 90 kg rider if their drag is at least near equal and the time to do so is equal? How about when they're both going down the banking during that acceleration?

How many more average watts is needed for the heavier rider when these two riders do a standing start of 250m and difference in drag is not considered?

What are the odds that you'll ever be able to beat somebody like, oh, say, Michael Blatchford, whose 5 s power/mass is probably 10-20% greater than yours? (Answer: very low).

Or to put it another way: as I've said for 20+ years, the best predictor of performance is performance itself. However, of the determinants of performance during track cycling power/mass is obviously extremely important, which is why your claim that it is not is ludicrous, and just belies how little you really understand the sport in which you compete.
 

acoggan

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WarrenG said:
Of the 10+ match sprints you may have seen in LA, how many were decided by a strong jump where watts/kg were of critical importance?

How many more watts does a 100kg rider have to use to accelerate from 25mph to 40mph as compared to a 90 kg rider if their drag is at least near equal and the time to do so is equal? How about when they're both going down the banking during that acceleration?

How many more average watts is needed for the heavier rider when these two riders do a standing start of 250m and difference in drag is not considered?

What are the odds that you'll ever be able to beat somebody like, oh, say, Michael Blatchford, whose 5 s power/mass is probably 10-20% greater than yours? (Answer: very low).

Or to put it another way: as I've said for 20+ years, the best predictor of performance is performance itself. However, of the determinants of performance during track cycling power/mass is obviously extremely important, which is why your claim that it is not is ludicrous, and just belies how little you really understand the sport in which you compete.
 

acoggan

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Billsworld said:
If I am not mistaken what you and Warren are saying is that after a certain point its just just overcoming frontal area/drag . At that point watts per kg are of less importance, and and just total watts and leg speed rule the day(and tactics).

Except that mass and frontal area are correlated, such that somebody's power/mass is related to their power/CdA. The correlation is far from perfect, but that still doesn't rule out use of simple power/mass (versus use of more complicated expressions, e.g., power/mass^0.67) as a reasonable indicator of somebody's performance ability.
 

acoggan

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Billsworld said:
If I am not mistaken what you and Warren are saying is that after a certain point its just just overcoming frontal area/drag . At that point watts per kg are of less importance, and and just total watts and leg speed rule the day(and tactics).

Except that mass and frontal area are correlated, such that somebody's power/mass is related to their power/CdA. The correlation is far from perfect, but that still doesn't rule out use of simple power/mass (versus use of more complicated expressions, e.g., power/mass^0.67) as a reasonable indicator of somebody's performance ability.
 

Billsworld

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velomanct said:
A big peak won't simply get you high speed. Although it will get you to speed the quickest. The key to getting the highest speed is to go 100% from the start. If you only give it 90% in the begining, it's impossible to make up for that lose in acceleration, during such a short effort. There is a difference between 4 second sprint intensity, and 8 second sprint intensity. When I go for the highest peak possible, I try to get every last bit of energy out of myself during those 4 seconds. For someone who has not been sprinting a lot, this is very hard to gauge.

Bottom line is, there are many different intensity levels for sprints. IMO, their is no pacing when you are sprinting for a period of under 20 seconds.
I would guess that a rider with less power can win a match sprint on tactics alone. At some point in a race someone has to jump and the power available in that jump should net more speed and with good tactics a win. A good example would be the Kilo. That why a 2000 wat guy can go faster than a a more fit roadie. He will hit 2000 watts and 40+ mph and try to hold on like grim death. The 1200 watt guy will do the same yet only hit 35mph. The more fit guy might have more endurance with equal leg speed and get to the end in more time. Warren has lots of experience in match sprint so I have to think there are some differences when your rubbing elbows at near 40 mph vs. a TT I just watched a video of J Staff vs Blatch. My guess is Staff can make alot more watts than his rival....he lost. We will test it once one of us hitts 2000:)
 

Billsworld

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velomanct said:
A big peak won't simply get you high speed. Although it will get you to speed the quickest. The key to getting the highest speed is to go 100% from the start. If you only give it 90% in the begining, it's impossible to make up for that lose in acceleration, during such a short effort. There is a difference between 4 second sprint intensity, and 8 second sprint intensity. When I go for the highest peak possible, I try to get every last bit of energy out of myself during those 4 seconds. For someone who has not been sprinting a lot, this is very hard to gauge.

Bottom line is, there are many different intensity levels for sprints. IMO, their is no pacing when you are sprinting for a period of under 20 seconds.
I would guess that a rider with less power can win a match sprint on tactics alone. At some point in a race someone has to jump and the power available in that jump should net more speed and with good tactics a win. A good example would be the Kilo. That why a 2000 wat guy can go faster than a a more fit roadie. He will hit 2000 watts and 40+ mph and try to hold on like grim death. The 1200 watt guy will do the same yet only hit 35mph. The more fit guy might have more endurance with equal leg speed and get to the end in more time. Warren has lots of experience in match sprint so I have to think there are some differences when your rubbing elbows at near 40 mph vs. a TT I just watched a video of J Staff vs Blatch. My guess is Staff can make alot more watts than his rival....he lost. We will test it once one of us hitts 2000:)
 

Billsworld

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acoggan said:
Except that mass and frontal area are correlated, such that somebody's power/mass is related to their power/CdA. The correlation is far from perfect, but that still doesn't rule out use of simple power/mass (versus use of more complicated expressions, e.g., power/mass^0.67) as a reasonable indicator of somebody's performance ability.
They are related . A heavier guy =larger frontal area. I think thats why you correct. I can only go by what I see on PT, but it agrees with your findings. Overcoming wind drag as speed increases by increasing leg speed is pissing into the wind wothout power to back it up. Sorry no symbol for pissing into wind:)
 

Billsworld

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acoggan said:
Except that mass and frontal area are correlated, such that somebody's power/mass is related to their power/CdA. The correlation is far from perfect, but that still doesn't rule out use of simple power/mass (versus use of more complicated expressions, e.g., power/mass^0.67) as a reasonable indicator of somebody's performance ability.
They are related . A heavier guy =larger frontal area. I think thats why you correct. I can only go by what I see on PT, but it agrees with your findings. Overcoming wind drag as speed increases by increasing leg speed is pissing into the wind wothout power to back it up. Sorry no symbol for pissing into wind:)
 

WarrenG

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velomanct said:
A big peak won't simply get you high speed. Although it will get you to speed the quickest. The key to getting the highest speed is to go 100% from the start. If you only give it 90% in the begining, it's impossible to make up for that lose in acceleration, during such a short effort. There is a difference between 4 second sprint intensity, and 8 second sprint intensity. When I go for the highest peak possible, I try to get every last bit of energy out of myself during those 4 seconds. For someone who has not been sprinting a lot, this is very hard to gauge.

Bottom line is, there are many different intensity levels for sprints. IMO, their is no pacing when you are sprinting for a period of under 20 seconds.

Well, just because you put out 1500 watts in the first 5 seconds does not mean you'll go as fast as a guy putting out 1350 watts for 10 seconds or more. Watts does not EQUAL speed. Even if you apply 2000 watts it does not mean you will be at your max speed after 5 seconds.

I also don't agree that you'll only attain the highest speed by going 100% right from the start. It might take you 15 seconds on a flat road to get up to speed. Maybe you can do that best with very high power that falls off rapidly, or maybe you can do that best with a more gradual acceleration. What works best for you may depend on tactics, slope of the road or track, and what your abilities are best suited for.
 

WarrenG

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velomanct said:
A big peak won't simply get you high speed. Although it will get you to speed the quickest. The key to getting the highest speed is to go 100% from the start. If you only give it 90% in the begining, it's impossible to make up for that lose in acceleration, during such a short effort. There is a difference between 4 second sprint intensity, and 8 second sprint intensity. When I go for the highest peak possible, I try to get every last bit of energy out of myself during those 4 seconds. For someone who has not been sprinting a lot, this is very hard to gauge.

Bottom line is, there are many different intensity levels for sprints. IMO, their is no pacing when you are sprinting for a period of under 20 seconds.

Well, just because you put out 1500 watts in the first 5 seconds does not mean you'll go as fast as a guy putting out 1350 watts for 10 seconds or more. Watts does not EQUAL speed. Even if you apply 2000 watts it does not mean you will be at your max speed after 5 seconds.

I also don't agree that you'll only attain the highest speed by going 100% right from the start. It might take you 15 seconds on a flat road to get up to speed. Maybe you can do that best with very high power that falls off rapidly, or maybe you can do that best with a more gradual acceleration. What works best for you may depend on tactics, slope of the road or track, and what your abilities are best suited for.
 

Billsworld

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WarrenG said:
Well, just because you put out 1500 watts in the first 5 seconds does not mean you'll go as fast as a guy putting out 1350 watts for 10 seconds or more. Watts does not EQUAL speed. Even if you apply 2000 watts it does not mean you will be at your max speed after 5 seconds.

I also don't agree that you'll only attain the highest speed by going 100% right from the start. It might take you 15 seconds on a flat road to get up to speed. Maybe you can do that best with very high power that falls off rapidly, or maybe you can do that best with a more gradual acceleration. What works best for you may depend on tactics, slope of the road or track, and what your abilities are best suited for.
I am more thinking about a TT. When watching a race , there seems to be alot more going on than just raw power. I think your talking about 5 sec or 10 sec ave power vs peak. Unless that power looks like a flat line , there will be a some kind of a peak. The higher that peak is, will influence that 5 or 10 sec average?? Ok I will stop using Peak. I think the same rule can apply for the kilo. A 900 watt average for the effort will get the rider there faster than an 800 assuming the frontal area and Kg are the same. Hey what this got to do with hypertrophy?:)
 

Billsworld

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WarrenG said:
Well, just because you put out 1500 watts in the first 5 seconds does not mean you'll go as fast as a guy putting out 1350 watts for 10 seconds or more. Watts does not EQUAL speed. Even if you apply 2000 watts it does not mean you will be at your max speed after 5 seconds.

I also don't agree that you'll only attain the highest speed by going 100% right from the start. It might take you 15 seconds on a flat road to get up to speed. Maybe you can do that best with very high power that falls off rapidly, or maybe you can do that best with a more gradual acceleration. What works best for you may depend on tactics, slope of the road or track, and what your abilities are best suited for.
I am more thinking about a TT. When watching a race , there seems to be alot more going on than just raw power. I think your talking about 5 sec or 10 sec ave power vs peak. Unless that power looks like a flat line , there will be a some kind of a peak. The higher that peak is, will influence that 5 or 10 sec average?? Ok I will stop using Peak. I think the same rule can apply for the kilo. A 900 watt average for the effort will get the rider there faster than an 800 assuming the frontal area and Kg are the same. Hey what this got to do with hypertrophy?:)
 

WarrenG

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Billsworld said:
I am more thinking about a TT. When watching a race , there seems to be alot more going on than just raw power. I think your talking about 5 sec or 10 sec ave power vs peak. Unless that power looks like a flat line , there will be a some kind of a peak. The higher that peak is, will influence that 5 or 10 sec average?? Ok I will stop using Peak. I think the same rule can apply for the kilo. A 900 watt average for the effort will get the rider there faster than an 800 assuming the frontal area and Kg are the same. Hey what this got to do with hypertrophy?:)


I'm not real clear on what you're saying there. For the kilo, some guys hit it as hard as possible right from the gun. Others use a bit more gradual increase. I always wonder how much future ability (last lap) is sacrificed if you apply huge power while trying to get up to max speed. You can watch a half dozen good kilo riders and see some differences in their approaches to this issue. Even at the elite level some very good riders have a fairly significant faster last lap compared to other guys riding virtually the same time.

Maybe an analogy would help. Could you lift more total weight in a minute by squatting 500 pounds for multiple reps, or 430 pounds for multiple reps. Some people just don't have that huge max power but they get the job done with slightly lower power (peaks?) sustained over a longer period.