Hypertrophy on the bike - possible? (very long)



WarrenG

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Billsworld said:
I am more thinking about a TT. When watching a race , there seems to be alot more going on than just raw power. I think your talking about 5 sec or 10 sec ave power vs peak. Unless that power looks like a flat line , there will be a some kind of a peak. The higher that peak is, will influence that 5 or 10 sec average?? Ok I will stop using Peak. I think the same rule can apply for the kilo. A 900 watt average for the effort will get the rider there faster than an 800 assuming the frontal area and Kg are the same. Hey what this got to do with hypertrophy?:)


I'm not real clear on what you're saying there. For the kilo, some guys hit it as hard as possible right from the gun. Others use a bit more gradual increase. I always wonder how much future ability (last lap) is sacrificed if you apply huge power while trying to get up to max speed. You can watch a half dozen good kilo riders and see some differences in their approaches to this issue. Even at the elite level some very good riders have a fairly significant faster last lap compared to other guys riding virtually the same time.

Maybe an analogy would help. Could you lift more total weight in a minute by squatting 500 pounds for multiple reps, or 430 pounds for multiple reps. Some people just don't have that huge max power but they get the job done with slightly lower power (peaks?) sustained over a longer period.
 

velomanct

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WarrenG said:
Well, just because you put out 1500 watts in the first 5 seconds does not mean you'll go as fast as a guy putting out 1350 watts for 10 seconds or more. Watts does not EQUAL speed. Even if you apply 2000 watts it does not mean you will be at your max speed after 5 seconds.

I also don't agree that you'll only attain the highest speed by going 100% right from the start. It might take you 15 seconds on a flat road to get up to speed. Maybe you can do that best with very high power that falls off rapidly, or maybe you can do that best with a more gradual acceleration. What works best for you may depend on tactics, slope of the road or track, and what your abilities are best suited for.

I never said 1500w for 5 second would beat 1350w for 10 seconds. Why would I say that? It makes no sense.

If I want to hit the highest speed on a flat road, I will bring it up to around 27mph, then jump 100% until I top out. If I were to only go 80% when I jumped, it wouldn't really "save" my legs for the final part of the sprint. This is because, for ME, even 80% sprint effort drains me a lot, so I might as well go 100% and get the quicker acceleration. Also, I find it very hard to change my effort level from ~80% to completely full on during a sprint. It's a mental thing, I am just better off going 100% from the start. In the end, I will produce the best AVERAGE power if I go 100% from the start(during sprints < 20 seconds). But that is me, I don't know about other riders.
 

velomanct

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WarrenG said:
Well, just because you put out 1500 watts in the first 5 seconds does not mean you'll go as fast as a guy putting out 1350 watts for 10 seconds or more. Watts does not EQUAL speed. Even if you apply 2000 watts it does not mean you will be at your max speed after 5 seconds.

I also don't agree that you'll only attain the highest speed by going 100% right from the start. It might take you 15 seconds on a flat road to get up to speed. Maybe you can do that best with very high power that falls off rapidly, or maybe you can do that best with a more gradual acceleration. What works best for you may depend on tactics, slope of the road or track, and what your abilities are best suited for.

I never said 1500w for 5 second would beat 1350w for 10 seconds. Why would I say that? It makes no sense.

If I want to hit the highest speed on a flat road, I will bring it up to around 27mph, then jump 100% until I top out. If I were to only go 80% when I jumped, it wouldn't really "save" my legs for the final part of the sprint. This is because, for ME, even 80% sprint effort drains me a lot, so I might as well go 100% and get the quicker acceleration. Also, I find it very hard to change my effort level from ~80% to completely full on during a sprint. It's a mental thing, I am just better off going 100% from the start. In the end, I will produce the best AVERAGE power if I go 100% from the start(during sprints < 20 seconds). But that is me, I don't know about other riders.
 

whoawhoa

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WarrenG said:
I always wonder how much future ability (last lap) is sacrificed if you apply huge power while trying to get up to max speed.
It takes so much less wattage to hold speed than to attain it. I wouldn't assume that just because wattage drops means that power does. Of course, you've watched kilos a lot, I haven't. How often do riders "die" and noticeably slow down on the last lap?
 

whoawhoa

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WarrenG said:
I always wonder how much future ability (last lap) is sacrificed if you apply huge power while trying to get up to max speed.
It takes so much less wattage to hold speed than to attain it. I wouldn't assume that just because wattage drops means that power does. Of course, you've watched kilos a lot, I haven't. How often do riders "die" and noticeably slow down on the last lap?
 

velomanct

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WarrenG said:
I'm not real clear on what you're saying there. For the kilo, some guys hit it as hard as possible right from the gun. Others use a bit more gradual increase. I always wonder how much future ability (last lap) is sacrificed if you apply huge power while trying to get up to max speed. You can watch a half dozen good kilo riders and see some differences in their approaches to this issue. Even at the elite level some very good riders have a fairly significant faster last lap compared to other guys riding virtually the same time.

Maybe an analogy would help. Could you lift more total weight in a minute by squatting 500 pounds for multiple reps, or 430 pounds for multiple reps. Some people just don't have that huge max power but they get the job done with slightly lower power (peaks?) sustained over a longer period.
In my experience, with a kilo, the last lap is going to hurt like hell no matter what. So I might as well get up to speed asap. That is bthe idea behind many riders who go super hard from the start.

For a kilo rider who starts out slowly, they also have to either; hit a higher top speed(which is less efficient because of the additional wind resistence), or they will have to hold that high speed for a longer period of time (same problem here). For a kilo rider who starts as fast as possible, they don't "waste" addition energy pushing extra wind (compared to the slow starter).
This is assuming both riders have the same kilo time.
 

velomanct

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WarrenG said:
I'm not real clear on what you're saying there. For the kilo, some guys hit it as hard as possible right from the gun. Others use a bit more gradual increase. I always wonder how much future ability (last lap) is sacrificed if you apply huge power while trying to get up to max speed. You can watch a half dozen good kilo riders and see some differences in their approaches to this issue. Even at the elite level some very good riders have a fairly significant faster last lap compared to other guys riding virtually the same time.

Maybe an analogy would help. Could you lift more total weight in a minute by squatting 500 pounds for multiple reps, or 430 pounds for multiple reps. Some people just don't have that huge max power but they get the job done with slightly lower power (peaks?) sustained over a longer period.
In my experience, with a kilo, the last lap is going to hurt like hell no matter what. So I might as well get up to speed asap. That is bthe idea behind many riders who go super hard from the start.

For a kilo rider who starts out slowly, they also have to either; hit a higher top speed(which is less efficient because of the additional wind resistence), or they will have to hold that high speed for a longer period of time (same problem here). For a kilo rider who starts as fast as possible, they don't "waste" addition energy pushing extra wind (compared to the slow starter).
This is assuming both riders have the same kilo time.
 

WarrenG

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whoawhoa said:
How often do riders "die" and noticeably slow down on the last lap?


LOL!

Not laughing at you, just recalling the past pains of having died on that last lap and having watched countless other people do the same. It can get ugggggly. At Nat's and elite level you don't see too much of this but everybody is slowing down in the last lap-it's just a matter of how much. Some will do 38mph after one lap and finish at 28mph. Others will do 36mph and finish closer to 30mph. At the District or state level you'll some of the real ugliness shown as 35mph max speed and 24mph at the finish.
 

WarrenG

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whoawhoa said:
How often do riders "die" and noticeably slow down on the last lap?


LOL!

Not laughing at you, just recalling the past pains of having died on that last lap and having watched countless other people do the same. It can get ugggggly. At Nat's and elite level you don't see too much of this but everybody is slowing down in the last lap-it's just a matter of how much. Some will do 38mph after one lap and finish at 28mph. Others will do 36mph and finish closer to 30mph. At the District or state level you'll some of the real ugliness shown as 35mph max speed and 24mph at the finish.
 

velomanct

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WarrenG said:
LOL!

Not laughing at you, just recalling the past pains of having died on that last lap and having watched countless other people do the same. It can get ugggggly. At Nat's and elite level you don't see too much of this but everybody is slowing down in the last lap-it's just a matter of how much. Some will do 38mph after one lap and finish at 28mph. Others will do 36mph and finish closer to 30mph. At the District or state level you'll some of the real ugliness shown as 35mph max speed and 24mph at the finish.
Really? wow. that makes me feel a lot better.

During the few kilos I have done on the road, I usually just kill myself trying to hold 34mph to the end
 

velomanct

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WarrenG said:
LOL!

Not laughing at you, just recalling the past pains of having died on that last lap and having watched countless other people do the same. It can get ugggggly. At Nat's and elite level you don't see too much of this but everybody is slowing down in the last lap-it's just a matter of how much. Some will do 38mph after one lap and finish at 28mph. Others will do 36mph and finish closer to 30mph. At the District or state level you'll some of the real ugliness shown as 35mph max speed and 24mph at the finish.
Really? wow. that makes me feel a lot better.

During the few kilos I have done on the road, I usually just kill myself trying to hold 34mph to the end
 

whoawhoa

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Oct 28, 2004
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WarrenG said:
LOL!

Not laughing at you, just recalling the past pains of having died on that last lap and having watched countless other people do the same. It can get ugggggly. At Nat's and elite level you don't see too much of this but everybody is slowing down in the last lap-it's just a matter of how much. Some will do 38mph after one lap and finish at 28mph. Others will do 36mph and finish closer to 30mph. At the District or state level you'll some of the real ugliness shown as 35mph max speed and 24mph at the finish.
Sounds like finding the balance is the key here, and I would think that would require some modelling/testing. As an anecdote, the Aussies seem to think starting fast is more important than finishing fast.
 

whoawhoa

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Oct 28, 2004
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WarrenG said:
LOL!

Not laughing at you, just recalling the past pains of having died on that last lap and having watched countless other people do the same. It can get ugggggly. At Nat's and elite level you don't see too much of this but everybody is slowing down in the last lap-it's just a matter of how much. Some will do 38mph after one lap and finish at 28mph. Others will do 36mph and finish closer to 30mph. At the District or state level you'll some of the real ugliness shown as 35mph max speed and 24mph at the finish.
Sounds like finding the balance is the key here, and I would think that would require some modelling/testing. As an anecdote, the Aussies seem to think starting fast is more important than finishing fast.
 

Billsworld

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whoawhoa said:
Sounds like finding the balance is the key here, and I would think that would require some modelling/testing. As an anecdote, the Aussies seem to think starting fast is more important than finishing fast.
I am confusing myself here. If i were doing a flying 200 TT I would go up to 30 and hammer about 75 yards from the line , then hang on to the end. In the kilo I would bury it from the start. Maybe Warren is right everyone has different tactics and abilities. On a kilo, My peak would come in about 8 seconds in a 90" gear and peak mph 5-6 seconds later. I can hold mph for about steady for about ten seconds . Then 10 seconds after that it starts to get ugly. :( My point is that my max mph follows peak watts. I kind of thought that was about the same for most of us. I wish I could make steady power for 20 seconds. 30 would be better:) Ok I am not confused any more
 

Billsworld

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whoawhoa said:
Sounds like finding the balance is the key here, and I would think that would require some modelling/testing. As an anecdote, the Aussies seem to think starting fast is more important than finishing fast.
I am confusing myself here. If i were doing a flying 200 TT I would go up to 30 and hammer about 75 yards from the line , then hang on to the end. In the kilo I would bury it from the start. Maybe Warren is right everyone has different tactics and abilities. On a kilo, My peak would come in about 8 seconds in a 90" gear and peak mph 5-6 seconds later. I can hold mph for about steady for about ten seconds . Then 10 seconds after that it starts to get ugly. :( My point is that my max mph follows peak watts. I kind of thought that was about the same for most of us. I wish I could make steady power for 20 seconds. 30 would be better:) Ok I am not confused any more
 

WarrenG

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acoggan said:
What are the odds that you'll ever be able to beat somebody like, oh, say, Michael Blatchford, whose 5 s power/mass is probably 10-20% greater than yours? (Answer: very low).

Are you saying you think his 5s watt/kg is only 10-20% more than mine? I doubt that. Mine is probably only 15-17 watts/kg. His has to be around 22-24/kg according to you, right?

acoggan said:
Or to put it another way: as I've said for 20+ years, the best predictor of performance is performance itself. However, of the determinants of performance during track cycling power/mass is obviously extremely important, which is why your claim that it is not is ludicrous, and just belies how little you really understand the sport in which you compete.

And yet when I ask you how many races were decided by one rider outjumping the other all you can offer up is insults.

You still haven't answered my questions about the importance, or lack of it in overcoming one's mass during match sprints, nor provided any evidence that watts/kg is as relevant as watt/drag, or speed over 100m, or speed over 200m, or speed over 250m or speed over 300m. This is just another lame attempt to slam me while providing no evidence for your point.

It seems odd to me that you would say I understand so little about an event I compete in when I somehow managed to win a 2004 National Championship in the event-overcoming the 2004 World Champion to do so. I guess compared to you I still have a lot more to learn about the event.
 

WarrenG

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acoggan said:
What are the odds that you'll ever be able to beat somebody like, oh, say, Michael Blatchford, whose 5 s power/mass is probably 10-20% greater than yours? (Answer: very low).

Are you saying you think his 5s watt/kg is only 10-20% more than mine? I doubt that. Mine is probably only 15-17 watts/kg. His has to be around 22-24/kg according to you, right?

acoggan said:
Or to put it another way: as I've said for 20+ years, the best predictor of performance is performance itself. However, of the determinants of performance during track cycling power/mass is obviously extremely important, which is why your claim that it is not is ludicrous, and just belies how little you really understand the sport in which you compete.

And yet when I ask you how many races were decided by one rider outjumping the other all you can offer up is insults.

You still haven't answered my questions about the importance, or lack of it in overcoming one's mass during match sprints, nor provided any evidence that watts/kg is as relevant as watt/drag, or speed over 100m, or speed over 200m, or speed over 250m or speed over 300m. This is just another lame attempt to slam me while providing no evidence for your point.

It seems odd to me that you would say I understand so little about an event I compete in when I somehow managed to win a 2004 National Championship in the event-overcoming the 2004 World Champion to do so. I guess compared to you I still have a lot more to learn about the event.
 

WarrenG

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whoawhoa said:
Sounds like finding the balance is the key here, and I would think that would require some modelling/testing. As an anecdote, the Aussies seem to think starting fast is more important than finishing fast.

That is how they prefer to prepare for, and then race the event. One of the French riders who beats the Aussies in that event prefers an approach that enables him to finish faster-i.e. slow down less.

On a more local level like Masters National and World Championships I see various excellent performances choosing either of the two approaches. As you say, testing with knowledgable assistance will maximize results and reduce the very painful testing.
 

WarrenG

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whoawhoa said:
Sounds like finding the balance is the key here, and I would think that would require some modelling/testing. As an anecdote, the Aussies seem to think starting fast is more important than finishing fast.

That is how they prefer to prepare for, and then race the event. One of the French riders who beats the Aussies in that event prefers an approach that enables him to finish faster-i.e. slow down less.

On a more local level like Masters National and World Championships I see various excellent performances choosing either of the two approaches. As you say, testing with knowledgable assistance will maximize results and reduce the very painful testing.
 

WarrenG

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Billsworld said:
I am confusing myself here. If i were doing a flying 200 TT I would go up to 30 and hammer about 75 yards from the line , then hang on to the end.

It's interesting to watch decent riders doing a round of 200's. You can watch all of the eventual winners in various age groups do their approach to the 200 and see at least 4-5 different approaches, as you say, depending on each rider's abilities and experience.

The approach you describe is similar to what I see from guys who are pretty good at long sprints. Getting up to 30mph before your hard jump means you expend a fair amount of energy to get there-relatively lots of time above 25mph where wind drag becomes so significant.

At the other extreme is a guy who goes up to about 22mph and then jumps really hard 50-75m from the line. He does best in short sprints.

Some guys hit a very high speed and then lose 3-4mph during their 200mTT. Others go to a slightly lower speed and only lose 1mph. Average speed over the distance determines the time.

Billsworld said:
In the kilo I would bury it from the start. Maybe Warren is right everyone has different tactics and abilities. On a kilo, My peak would come in about 8 seconds in a 90" gear and peak mph 5-6 seconds later.

Most, but not all kilos I've seen and done seem to hit max speed at about 150-180 meters. Only 850m to go! About the same for the Team Sprint events I've done and watched.