Hypertrophy on the bike - possible? (very long)



WarrenG

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Billsworld said:
I am confusing myself here. If i were doing a flying 200 TT I would go up to 30 and hammer about 75 yards from the line , then hang on to the end.

It's interesting to watch decent riders doing a round of 200's. You can watch all of the eventual winners in various age groups do their approach to the 200 and see at least 4-5 different approaches, as you say, depending on each rider's abilities and experience.

The approach you describe is similar to what I see from guys who are pretty good at long sprints. Getting up to 30mph before your hard jump means you expend a fair amount of energy to get there-relatively lots of time above 25mph where wind drag becomes so significant.

At the other extreme is a guy who goes up to about 22mph and then jumps really hard 50-75m from the line. He does best in short sprints.

Some guys hit a very high speed and then lose 3-4mph during their 200mTT. Others go to a slightly lower speed and only lose 1mph. Average speed over the distance determines the time.

Billsworld said:
In the kilo I would bury it from the start. Maybe Warren is right everyone has different tactics and abilities. On a kilo, My peak would come in about 8 seconds in a 90" gear and peak mph 5-6 seconds later.

Most, but not all kilos I've seen and done seem to hit max speed at about 150-180 meters. Only 850m to go! About the same for the Team Sprint events I've done and watched.
 

fergie

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whoawhoa said:
Sounds like finding the balance is the key here, and I would think that would require some modelling/testing. As an anecdote, the Aussies seem to think starting fast is more important than finishing fast.

If this is in the Kilo you may want to note that an Aussie hasn't won the Kilo since 1998.

Not sure what approach they take to the flying 200m now but ex Aussie Tracks coaches Charlie Walsh and Gary West did their best to ensure even 100m splits for the flying 200m where Darryn Hill and Gary Neiwand often topped the seeding round at World Champs.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach
 

fergie

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whoawhoa said:
Sounds like finding the balance is the key here, and I would think that would require some modelling/testing. As an anecdote, the Aussies seem to think starting fast is more important than finishing fast.

If this is in the Kilo you may want to note that an Aussie hasn't won the Kilo since 1998.

Not sure what approach they take to the flying 200m now but ex Aussie Tracks coaches Charlie Walsh and Gary West did their best to ensure even 100m splits for the flying 200m where Darryn Hill and Gary Neiwand often topped the seeding round at World Champs.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach
 

WarrenG

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fergie said:
If this is in the Kilo you may want to note that an Aussie hasn't won the Kilo since 1998.

Not sure what approach they take to the flying 200m now but ex Aussie Tracks coaches Charlie Walsh and Gary West did their best to ensure even 100m splits for the flying 200m where Darryn Hill and Gary Neiwand often topped the seeding round at World Champs.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

How do the Kiwis prefer to do their splits in the 200mTT?
 

WarrenG

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fergie said:
If this is in the Kilo you may want to note that an Aussie hasn't won the Kilo since 1998.

Not sure what approach they take to the flying 200m now but ex Aussie Tracks coaches Charlie Walsh and Gary West did their best to ensure even 100m splits for the flying 200m where Darryn Hill and Gary Neiwand often topped the seeding round at World Champs.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

How do the Kiwis prefer to do their splits in the 200mTT?
 

Billsworld

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WarrenG said:
It's interesting to watch decent riders doing a round of 200's. You can watch all of the eventual winners in various age groups do their approach to the 200 and see at least 4-5 different approaches, as you say, depending on each rider's abilities and experience.

The approach you describe is similar to what I see from guys who are pretty good at long sprints. Getting up to 30mph before your hard jump means you expend a fair amount of energy to get there-relatively lots of time above 25mph where wind drag becomes so significant.

At the other extreme is a guy who goes up to about 22mph and then jumps really hard 50-75m from the line. He does best in short sprints.

Some guys hit a very high speed and then lose 3-4mph during their 200mTT. Others go to a slightly lower speed and only lose 1mph. Average speed over the distance determines the time.



Most, but not all kilos I've seen and done seem to hit max speed at about 150-180 meters. Only 850m to go! About the same for the Team Sprint events I've done and watched.
I think my approach has less to do with my abilities as a long or short sprinter, and more to do with poor gear selection on my part. My 5 sec power is in the same range as yours,(17+) and I have been using a 48x14 soon to be 46. I cant get much past 150 rpm. For me that is still kind of luging the gear. I would prefer a quick jump and spin to about 160-165.I would also prefer not to have to race you any time soon. (Although I have increased power since last year by about 200 watts)We shall see, I am going to Lauderdale at the end of Feb. Thanks BP .......Oh, did you race Larry Nolan?
 

WarrenG

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Billsworld said:
I think my approach has less to do with my abilities as a long or short sprinter, and more to do with poor gear selection on my part. My 5 sec power is in the same range as yours,(17+) and I have been using a 48x14 soon to be 46. I cant get much past 150 rpm. For me that is still kind of luging the gear. I would prefer a quick jump and spin to about 160-165.I would also prefer not to have to race you any time soon. (Although I have increased power since last year by about 200 watts)We shall see, I am going to Lauderdale at the end of Feb. Thanks BP .......Oh, did you race Larry Nolan?

150rpm's is my max, but not used much. Rding at a nice, warm track in February... that's no way to make friends with people who live where there's still snow!

Larry lives in NorCal like me so we've done many, many races together over the last 12+ years he's been bike racing. In 2005 we won the team sprint at Nat's together as well as all 3 District Championships in team sprint. He's helped me a lot with track racing tactics.
 

Billsworld

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WarrenG said:
150rpm's is my max, but not used much. Rding at a nice, warm track in February... that's no way to make friends with people who live where there's still snow!

Larry lives in NorCal like me so we've done many, many races together over the last 12+ years he's been bike racing. In 2005 we won the team sprint at Nat's together as well as all 3 District Championships in team sprint. He's helped me a lot with track racing tactics.
I read a little article on him at FGF. He sounds like a great all around rider. FAST!! I was impressed when he entered the sprints to just break the wr in manchester. Didnt do it but I think he got silver and best rider? ( btw I am in Boston I deserve a break:) .) I also have mental block with the fact that I am a "master" age wise. I am still in competition with veloman to get to 2000 watts or 45mph on a flat. BP
 

WarrenG

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Billsworld said:
I read a little article on him at FGF. He sounds like a great all around rider. FAST!! I was impressed when he entered the sprints to just break the wr in manchester. Didnt do it but I think he got silver and best rider? ( btw I am in Boston I deserve a break:) .) I also have mental block with the fact that I am a "master" age wise. I am still in competition with veloman to get to 2000 watts or 45mph on a flat. BP

There's a bit longer story about why he did the sprints after his 200mTT. In the end Larry lost in the final to Al Whaley who set a new world record for the "in competition 200m" (11.33). The 2004 World Champion Rich Voss from Colorado was also in that final and finished third. I think it was the only event at Worlds where the USA swept the podium. Larry did win best overall in our age group via; 2nd sprints, 1st points race, 2nd pursuit.
 

Billsworld

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WarrenG said:
There's a bit longer story about why he did the sprints after his 200mTT. Suffice to say we had hoped the quarterfinal would have gone differently. Larry lost in the final to Al Whaley who set a new world record for the "in competition 200m" (11.33). The 2004 World Champion Rich Voss from Colorado was also in that final and finished third. I think it was the only event at Worlds where the USA swept the podium. Larry did win best overall in our age group via; 2nd sprints, 1st points race, 2nd pursuit.
Hats off to all of you. I am starting late and you boys are having all the fun. Its nice here today. Off to make some power. My legs are smoked from teching some powerlifting. So It wont be hypertrophy on the bike today
 

velomanct

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Billsworld said:
I am still in competition with veloman to get to 2000 watts or 45mph on a flat. BP

:D
You got your work cut out for you. you know I just missed the big 2k last year by a stinking 28watts! if i was using an SRM, it would have recorded over 2! (powertaps should be at least 3% below SRM because of power loss in the drivetrain, especially at high power)

The only thing holding me back is my damn back and knee problems. :mad:

Here's some good advice: don't ever let yourself detrain very much. It sucks trying to build back up to previous levels. (I blame winter). Right now I can't do any real sprints because my lower back is weak. I guess it needs more time to recover from the lifting I recently started, although it doesn't feel sore.

This is really odd, I did 2 sets of 20 rep squats - approaching failure on last set, yesterday. My legs never got sore. I biked today and felt great. Too bad I couldn't sprint, damn lower back.
 

Billsworld

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velomanct said:
:D
You got your work cut out for you. you know I just missed the big 2k last year by a stinking 28watts! if i was using an SRM, it would have recorded over 2! (powertaps should be at least 3% below SRM because of power loss in the drivetrain, especially at high power)

The only thing holding me back is my damn back and knee problems. :mad:

Here's some good advice: don't ever let yourself detrain very much. It sucks trying to build back up to previous levels. (I blame winter). Right now I can't do any real sprints because my lower back is weak. I guess it needs more time to recover from the lifting I recently started, although it doesn't feel sore.

This is really odd, I did 2 sets of 20 rep squats - approaching failure on last set, yesterday. My legs never got sore. I biked today and felt great. Too bad I couldn't sprint, damn lower back.
I think thats a good Idea. Keep doing the 20 rep sets. Then I have nothing to worry about.:) I added 1mph this week...a hair under 40.
 

velomanct

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Billsworld said:
I think thats a good Idea. Keep doing the 20 rep sets. Then I have nothing to worry about.:) I added 1mph this week...a hair under 40.
I know the 20 rep sets aren't going to improve my sprint, but I need to keep the reps high before I get back into the heavy stuff. I wish I could jump into the heavy stuff now, but that's not a good idea.

Top speed is not the best indicator of performance, unless it's under the exact same conditions on the same road. I have gone as high as 44mph, or as low as 35mph on "flat" roads during a sprint when I couldn't tell the wind direction.

Just keep an eye on your 5, 10, and 20 second average power. Peak is so unreliable, it's just something fun to look at.
 

Billsworld

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velomanct said:
I know the 20 rep sets aren't going to improve my sprint, but I need to keep the reps high before I get back into the heavy stuff. I wish I could jump into the heavy stuff now, but that's not a good idea.

Top speed is not the best indicator of performance, unless it's under the exact same conditions on the same road. I have gone as high as 44mph, or as low as 35mph on "flat" roads during a sprint when I couldn't tell the wind direction.

Just keep an eye on your 5, 10, and 20 second average power. Peak is so unreliable, it's just something fun to look at.
I am just goofing on you bud. One think I did notice about the one leg squats though; With a free bar once I hit 185 the wheels came off the wagon. Nothing but back problems. I couldnt figure it out because it felt so light............On another note, a smart guy told me to stop watching the watts and just build top speed. But...but.... I got two powertaps:)
 

WarrenG

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velomanct said:
This is really odd, I did 2 sets of 20 rep squats - approaching failure on last set, yesterday. My legs never got sore. I biked today and felt great. Too bad I couldn't sprint, damn lower back.

High reps use less force than you're used to with lower rep sets to same level of fatigue. The eccentric movement (down in squats) is big cause of soreness. Lighter weights.

To failure-you recruited LOTS of motor units (all hands on deck for a maximum effort!) and the next day they were better-coordinated (?) and ready to work together. After really hard uphill sprint sessions the next day I usually feel fresh, but with some fatigue-unable to repeat those kinds of efforts.

Lower back, this is one of several reasons I do the SFR (low cadence at threshold+ power, up hills) intervals for about 6 weeks before I start hard sprints up hill. SFR helps prepare my back, glutes, ligaments and tendons for what's to come.
 

WarrenG

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Billsworld said:
On another note, a smart guy told me to stop watching the watts and just build top speed. But...but.... I got two powertaps:)

Two expensive speedometers.

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
 

Billsworld

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WarrenG said:
Two expensive speedometers.

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
LOL...I love my power taps. How else would I bench race with ACOGGINS Charts. This stuff is supposed to be fun. I dont understand half of what he is talking about but I have fun .:)
 

velomanct

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Billsworld said:
LOL...I love my power taps. How else would I bench race with ACOGGINS Charts. This stuff is supposed to be fun. I dont understand half of what he is talking about but I have fun .:)
powermeters are fun. I should have kept my powertap. I'll probally be getting another sometime this summer.