M
Mike Vandeman
Guest
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 15:55:26 -0700
Subject: More dirt dug up
Where have we heard all this before? This is really amazing! I
couldn't make it up even if I tried!
The following is an article from a motorized dirt biker, who also
rides mechanized mountain bikes. Following that -- a reply from an
irate mountain biker who hates dirt bikes. And then, Dave's answer. It
goes round and round...
A Friend
People need to learn to Co-Exist!
January 8th, 2006.
by Dave Norona
After reading all the articles over the last few weeks on the conflict
between mountain bikers and dirt bikers I thought it was time I put
some of my thoughts down on paper. It seems weird to hear this
discussion as was it not the mountain bikers that had to spill there
case to hikers just a few years back to convince them that mountain
biking was a true sport and not just a fad that would go away. In fact
mountain bike associations like SOCRA and NSMB have done an amazing
job at rallying the troops and showing that mountain biking can
co-exist with runners and hikers. I find it funny that the mountain
bike community is now doing the exact same thing to the dirt bike
community.
Now before you get your underpants all bunched up let me just say that
I am
a true mountain biker through and through. I have spent the last 12
years
racing mountain bikes and currently race for the Rocky Mountain Pro
Mountain
Bike Team. My job over the last 15 years has been human powered
endeavors
from paddling events to multi-day Eco-Challenge Events around the
globe. I
love mountain biking and appreciate all that the sport is. However I
also
love riding and racing dirt bikes. It is one of the hardest sports in
the
world and anyone who thinks it is „easy‰ or that it is „cheating‰ just
has
not tried it.
I am not about to try and convince anyone that they should try dirt
biking or if they should like it for that matter. However what I am
trying
to explain is that both are incredible sports and get people outside
to the
great outdoors. Many people think that dirt bikers are not for the
environment as our machines run on petrol. I can only ask the
question, "How
on earth did those people get to Squamish, Whistler or any other
mountain
bike area with their bikes?" It was by car so getting into an
environmental
thing is just silly.
Recently I had heard of dirt bikers pinning it up the Powerhouse
Plunge
trail in Squamish. I was deeply disappointed in this as when I ride a
dirt
bike in Squamish I make and effort to stay off mountain bike trails.
However
for those that mountain bike and don't know too much about dirt bikes,
dirt
biking on logging roads is about as entertaining as mountain biking on
them.
It is down right boring. It is true that many people do it because
they want
to go fast or they are learning however the true fun comes when
dialing sick
single track just like riding a mountain bike. The main difference is
that
riding up a trail on a dirt bike is like riding down a trail on a
mountain
bike. That is why you find these dirt bike people riding up the
precious
plunge trail.
Because there is lack of single track in Squamish I ride out in Maple
Ridge
at Blue Mountain where there is nothing but sick single-track riding.
I know
this does nothing to solve the conflicts that are presented in
Squamish but
to solve a problem first you have to understand it.
I have also worked on dirt bike trails and appreciate all the efforts
that
go into maintaining a trail. NSMB and SORCA have led the way in
opening up
new fun trails and maintaining them. Does this give them ownership of
the
trails? I don't think it is fair for me to answer that as I can only
have an
opinion. Like I said I have worked on dirt bike trails and have seen
that
work go down the tube to some over zealous rider who just wanted to
pin it
over some roots and destroy the hour or so I put into that. Sure I get
upset
or even mad however all I can come up with is that there are jerks in
every
sport. I have been yelled at on the Whistler Mountain Bike Park as
well by
riders who think that they are way better than they are and feel that
the
trail belongs to them. Unfortunately there are this type of person in
every
sport as I race at the top level in over 8 sports and have yet to see
a
sport that does not contain some bad apples.
My opinion is that the trails don't belong to anyone, but everyone,
and that
we are all small groups of people in the grand scheme of things and
that we
need to work together so that when a logging company wants to log the
Plunge
everyone comes together to stop it and we are all better off because
of
working together.
For the woman who said, "I will never ride in Squamish" because of the
dirt
bikers she comes across - I feel bad for her and her attitude as she
will
come across conflict like this throughout her life and it is sad that
her
approach is such as it does not help anyone but only creates angry
discussion.
The logical answer to this dilemma is to set aside an area for the
creation
of dirt biking single track that dirt bikers can use as well as
mountain
bikers and allow the dirt bikers to take care and maintain those
trails as
the mountain bikers do. That way we can all get along and continue to
enjoy
the great outdoors what ever your passion is.
Cheers
Dave Norona
www.davenorona.com
www.davenorona.com/moto
www.adventuresmart.ca
(Below is an email sent to Dave by a mountain biker concerning the
previous article and Dave's reply)
Here is his e-mail to me: (the mountain biker mentions several places
where dirt bike/mountain bike conflict is occurring.
just read your article. <>
couple of points if I may: <>
Dirt bikes are noisy! When I go mountain biking I go there to enjoy
the relative quiet. I don't want to hear that god damned loud noise
from the engines (case in point we were relaxing at Alice lake and two
assholes come flying up Jacks trail and crank their engines...thank
god for the gates going up Debbeck's hill...we "fled" there and they
could not follow). <>
Dirt bikers can be absolute assholes. Case in point: rode up Eagle
Mtn. access road and was passed by a dirt biker asshole who floored it
just as he went by. The spray of rocks and dirt coming my way had me
heading into the bush for cover. Same thing happened on the Mamquam
FSR. Of course I know it takes real skill (NOT) to crank the throttle
to go fast (yes I know I used to ride dirt bikes in my younger days)
<>
I have ridden Vedder mountain (on a mountain bike) and have seen what
damage those Dirt bikes can inflict (trenches 4 feet deep!!)
So, sorry no sale here.
<>I vote for keeping the "rockers" and their dirt bikes in Maple Ridge
(I promise I won't bring my mountain bike there).
cheers <>
PS I also get ****** off when I encounter the snowmobilers in the back
country. Again the frickin' noise is a total spoiler.
I also get ****** off when I encounter motor boats (there is that
frikin noise again) when kayaking. <>
PS the reason I drive to the trail head is because I am worried that I
will get killed by the idiot drivers out there who don't have any
respect for bikes on the road (speak from bad experiences). <>
My response:
Thanks for your e-mail. Don’t disagree that there are a lot of riders
out there that do what you say. Has happened to me as well. However
there are also mountain bikers who pass hikers too fast and close for
hikers. Unfortunately your attitude is as bad as those people you
dislike. You need to learn the meaning of sharing. I GPS map a lot of
the areas so that riders head off to Cat lake or places their should
ride rather than going in places like they should not be. It is a
matter of learning from each user group and then applying that
learning to a better understanding of what each group wants and needs.
Unfortunately your attitude is the kind that makes this hard for any
group. I ride on the road every day and deal with cars and I may not
like the way I am treated but cars are not going away and it is up to
me to pick areas where I feel my training will be proper and I will
have a great ride. I think if you actually looked into it you would be
surprised how many trails in Squamish and Whistler were made by dirt
bikers/trials riders. A good friend of mine was riding trials in
Whistler with a guy and some mountain bikers started yelling at them
for being on their mountain bike trail. My friend had to laugh when
those people found out they were yelling at the guy who actually built
the trail with a trials bike and a chainsaw for trials bikes. However
these people never mind if people hike, bike or run on these trails.
Out at McNutt/Blue Mountain where I dirt bike there mountain bikers
and dirt bikers and yes people are surprised when I come upon them and
shut down my motor. Many don’t and it is a lack of respect. However it
is the same lack of respect that you are giving off to people because
of a few bad experiences and that you are not fond of it. Likewise if
you don’t want to hear snowmobiles then go to a park area like
Garibaldi and problem solved. I have spent my whole career under human
powered transportation however I also ride and race dirt bikes and
snowmobiles and I have witnessed some of the worst trail etiquette
from all user groups. Also dirt bikes do erode the trails, but if you
think mountain bikes, hikers and horseback riders don’t then you need
to get out to a few more trails. Ever ridden Ned Atomic Dist Bin on
Seymour? That use to be a single track cross country up hill and down
hill, or some of the Baden Powell hiking areas, erosion is a fact of
life my friend and everyone who is out there creates it, even you.
Again sorry you have had some bad experiences however the article I
wrote was to make people understand what dirt bikers are looking for
so that trail issues can be addressed to keep dirt bikers off Test of
Metal single track and other SORCA trails that they use, work on and
create for mountain biking. If mountain bikers have the same attitude
as you then nobody listens to each other and people will keep coming
up from the city and dirt biking on those trails. If you read the
article then what do you think about hikers that suggest all trails be
closed to mountain bikers because they erode the trails and pass
hikers fast and hikers were there first. Funny you would probably be
promoting all the benefits of mountain biking and have no
understanding why these people would do this, however this has almost
happened on Fromme and your attitude is one in the same with those
hikers against mountain bikers. If you actually checked some things
out before you spoke you would see that on the the Squamish Dirt
biking asso. web site and my moto site we both repeat “do not ride on
the SORCA trails. Maybe if you spent a bit more time learning and
opening up your mind you would understand a bit more and have to spend
less time venting to someone who has spent the better part of 16 years
racing, writing, and experiencing the outdoors and promoting it
sustainability to others to help create more areas for all user
groups. Maybe check out my web site, or you can just stick to your
plan and may I suggest some ear plugs? dave
This was posted here to give all riders an idea of what we have to
deal with out there. I hope you all read this and understand what we
all have to do to keep our priviledge to ride open to us and our
future generations. Ride smart, ride quiet. (Mike Fodor - PN
Webmaster) -- Pacific Northwest Motorcycle Association
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
Subject: More dirt dug up
Where have we heard all this before? This is really amazing! I
couldn't make it up even if I tried!
The following is an article from a motorized dirt biker, who also
rides mechanized mountain bikes. Following that -- a reply from an
irate mountain biker who hates dirt bikes. And then, Dave's answer. It
goes round and round...
A Friend
People need to learn to Co-Exist!
January 8th, 2006.
by Dave Norona
After reading all the articles over the last few weeks on the conflict
between mountain bikers and dirt bikers I thought it was time I put
some of my thoughts down on paper. It seems weird to hear this
discussion as was it not the mountain bikers that had to spill there
case to hikers just a few years back to convince them that mountain
biking was a true sport and not just a fad that would go away. In fact
mountain bike associations like SOCRA and NSMB have done an amazing
job at rallying the troops and showing that mountain biking can
co-exist with runners and hikers. I find it funny that the mountain
bike community is now doing the exact same thing to the dirt bike
community.
Now before you get your underpants all bunched up let me just say that
I am
a true mountain biker through and through. I have spent the last 12
years
racing mountain bikes and currently race for the Rocky Mountain Pro
Mountain
Bike Team. My job over the last 15 years has been human powered
endeavors
from paddling events to multi-day Eco-Challenge Events around the
globe. I
love mountain biking and appreciate all that the sport is. However I
also
love riding and racing dirt bikes. It is one of the hardest sports in
the
world and anyone who thinks it is „easy‰ or that it is „cheating‰ just
has
not tried it.
I am not about to try and convince anyone that they should try dirt
biking or if they should like it for that matter. However what I am
trying
to explain is that both are incredible sports and get people outside
to the
great outdoors. Many people think that dirt bikers are not for the
environment as our machines run on petrol. I can only ask the
question, "How
on earth did those people get to Squamish, Whistler or any other
mountain
bike area with their bikes?" It was by car so getting into an
environmental
thing is just silly.
Recently I had heard of dirt bikers pinning it up the Powerhouse
Plunge
trail in Squamish. I was deeply disappointed in this as when I ride a
dirt
bike in Squamish I make and effort to stay off mountain bike trails.
However
for those that mountain bike and don't know too much about dirt bikes,
dirt
biking on logging roads is about as entertaining as mountain biking on
them.
It is down right boring. It is true that many people do it because
they want
to go fast or they are learning however the true fun comes when
dialing sick
single track just like riding a mountain bike. The main difference is
that
riding up a trail on a dirt bike is like riding down a trail on a
mountain
bike. That is why you find these dirt bike people riding up the
precious
plunge trail.
Because there is lack of single track in Squamish I ride out in Maple
Ridge
at Blue Mountain where there is nothing but sick single-track riding.
I know
this does nothing to solve the conflicts that are presented in
Squamish but
to solve a problem first you have to understand it.
I have also worked on dirt bike trails and appreciate all the efforts
that
go into maintaining a trail. NSMB and SORCA have led the way in
opening up
new fun trails and maintaining them. Does this give them ownership of
the
trails? I don't think it is fair for me to answer that as I can only
have an
opinion. Like I said I have worked on dirt bike trails and have seen
that
work go down the tube to some over zealous rider who just wanted to
pin it
over some roots and destroy the hour or so I put into that. Sure I get
upset
or even mad however all I can come up with is that there are jerks in
every
sport. I have been yelled at on the Whistler Mountain Bike Park as
well by
riders who think that they are way better than they are and feel that
the
trail belongs to them. Unfortunately there are this type of person in
every
sport as I race at the top level in over 8 sports and have yet to see
a
sport that does not contain some bad apples.
My opinion is that the trails don't belong to anyone, but everyone,
and that
we are all small groups of people in the grand scheme of things and
that we
need to work together so that when a logging company wants to log the
Plunge
everyone comes together to stop it and we are all better off because
of
working together.
For the woman who said, "I will never ride in Squamish" because of the
dirt
bikers she comes across - I feel bad for her and her attitude as she
will
come across conflict like this throughout her life and it is sad that
her
approach is such as it does not help anyone but only creates angry
discussion.
The logical answer to this dilemma is to set aside an area for the
creation
of dirt biking single track that dirt bikers can use as well as
mountain
bikers and allow the dirt bikers to take care and maintain those
trails as
the mountain bikers do. That way we can all get along and continue to
enjoy
the great outdoors what ever your passion is.
Cheers
Dave Norona
www.davenorona.com
www.davenorona.com/moto
www.adventuresmart.ca
(Below is an email sent to Dave by a mountain biker concerning the
previous article and Dave's reply)
Here is his e-mail to me: (the mountain biker mentions several places
where dirt bike/mountain bike conflict is occurring.
just read your article. <>
couple of points if I may: <>
Dirt bikes are noisy! When I go mountain biking I go there to enjoy
the relative quiet. I don't want to hear that god damned loud noise
from the engines (case in point we were relaxing at Alice lake and two
assholes come flying up Jacks trail and crank their engines...thank
god for the gates going up Debbeck's hill...we "fled" there and they
could not follow). <>
Dirt bikers can be absolute assholes. Case in point: rode up Eagle
Mtn. access road and was passed by a dirt biker asshole who floored it
just as he went by. The spray of rocks and dirt coming my way had me
heading into the bush for cover. Same thing happened on the Mamquam
FSR. Of course I know it takes real skill (NOT) to crank the throttle
to go fast (yes I know I used to ride dirt bikes in my younger days)
<>
I have ridden Vedder mountain (on a mountain bike) and have seen what
damage those Dirt bikes can inflict (trenches 4 feet deep!!)
So, sorry no sale here.
<>I vote for keeping the "rockers" and their dirt bikes in Maple Ridge
(I promise I won't bring my mountain bike there).
cheers <>
PS I also get ****** off when I encounter the snowmobilers in the back
country. Again the frickin' noise is a total spoiler.
I also get ****** off when I encounter motor boats (there is that
frikin noise again) when kayaking. <>
PS the reason I drive to the trail head is because I am worried that I
will get killed by the idiot drivers out there who don't have any
respect for bikes on the road (speak from bad experiences). <>
My response:
Thanks for your e-mail. Don’t disagree that there are a lot of riders
out there that do what you say. Has happened to me as well. However
there are also mountain bikers who pass hikers too fast and close for
hikers. Unfortunately your attitude is as bad as those people you
dislike. You need to learn the meaning of sharing. I GPS map a lot of
the areas so that riders head off to Cat lake or places their should
ride rather than going in places like they should not be. It is a
matter of learning from each user group and then applying that
learning to a better understanding of what each group wants and needs.
Unfortunately your attitude is the kind that makes this hard for any
group. I ride on the road every day and deal with cars and I may not
like the way I am treated but cars are not going away and it is up to
me to pick areas where I feel my training will be proper and I will
have a great ride. I think if you actually looked into it you would be
surprised how many trails in Squamish and Whistler were made by dirt
bikers/trials riders. A good friend of mine was riding trials in
Whistler with a guy and some mountain bikers started yelling at them
for being on their mountain bike trail. My friend had to laugh when
those people found out they were yelling at the guy who actually built
the trail with a trials bike and a chainsaw for trials bikes. However
these people never mind if people hike, bike or run on these trails.
Out at McNutt/Blue Mountain where I dirt bike there mountain bikers
and dirt bikers and yes people are surprised when I come upon them and
shut down my motor. Many don’t and it is a lack of respect. However it
is the same lack of respect that you are giving off to people because
of a few bad experiences and that you are not fond of it. Likewise if
you don’t want to hear snowmobiles then go to a park area like
Garibaldi and problem solved. I have spent my whole career under human
powered transportation however I also ride and race dirt bikes and
snowmobiles and I have witnessed some of the worst trail etiquette
from all user groups. Also dirt bikes do erode the trails, but if you
think mountain bikes, hikers and horseback riders don’t then you need
to get out to a few more trails. Ever ridden Ned Atomic Dist Bin on
Seymour? That use to be a single track cross country up hill and down
hill, or some of the Baden Powell hiking areas, erosion is a fact of
life my friend and everyone who is out there creates it, even you.
Again sorry you have had some bad experiences however the article I
wrote was to make people understand what dirt bikers are looking for
so that trail issues can be addressed to keep dirt bikers off Test of
Metal single track and other SORCA trails that they use, work on and
create for mountain biking. If mountain bikers have the same attitude
as you then nobody listens to each other and people will keep coming
up from the city and dirt biking on those trails. If you read the
article then what do you think about hikers that suggest all trails be
closed to mountain bikers because they erode the trails and pass
hikers fast and hikers were there first. Funny you would probably be
promoting all the benefits of mountain biking and have no
understanding why these people would do this, however this has almost
happened on Fromme and your attitude is one in the same with those
hikers against mountain bikers. If you actually checked some things
out before you spoke you would see that on the the Squamish Dirt
biking asso. web site and my moto site we both repeat “do not ride on
the SORCA trails. Maybe if you spent a bit more time learning and
opening up your mind you would understand a bit more and have to spend
less time venting to someone who has spent the better part of 16 years
racing, writing, and experiencing the outdoors and promoting it
sustainability to others to help create more areas for all user
groups. Maybe check out my web site, or you can just stick to your
plan and may I suggest some ear plugs? dave
This was posted here to give all riders an idea of what we have to
deal with out there. I hope you all read this and understand what we
all have to do to keep our priviledge to ride open to us and our
future generations. Ride smart, ride quiet. (Mike Fodor - PN
Webmaster) -- Pacific Northwest Motorcycle Association
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
