Hypothetical car-bike interaction

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Fritz M, Jun 16, 2004.

  1. Fritz M

    Fritz M Guest

    Let's say that, hypothetically, a late model blue Chrysler Sebring
    sedan with Colorado plates 335IER is traveling in the passing lane of
    a busy, downtown 4-lane street when the driver (blond female
    caucasian, about 30 years old) merges right into the "slow" lane to
    pass because 30 mph is too slow for her in this 25 mph zone. Let's
    also say, hypothetically, that a cyclist on a red mountain bike
    wearing jeans and bright red jacket is right in the spot that our
    imaginary motorist is merging into. The cyclist is in the middle of
    this slow lane to avoid the door zone, probably traveling close to 20
    mph. There's really nowhere for the cyclist to go, so he kicks this
    hypothetical blue Sebring with his hypothetically cleated MTB shoe and
    leaves a hypothetical dent in the door. The MTBer immediately makes a
    right turn and escapes down an imaginary side alley and into the
    rabbit hole he goes.

    Let's say that I witnessed this hypothetical interaction from a half
    block behind.

    Do I hypothetically know the identity of this ficitious MTBer? Was the
    MTBer in our story merely acting, hypothetically, in self-defense? Or
    is he guilty of assault? Do I take the blue pill and believe whatever
    I want to believe? Or do I take the red pill and see how deep the
    rabbit hole goes?

    RFM
     
    Tags:


  2. David Kerber

    David Kerber Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected] says...
    > Let's say that, hypothetically, a late model blue Chrysler Sebring
    > sedan with Colorado plates 335IER is traveling in the passing lane of
    > a busy, downtown 4-lane street when the driver (blond female
    > caucasian, about 30 years old) merges right into the "slow" lane to
    > pass because 30 mph is too slow for her in this 25 mph zone. Let's
    > also say, hypothetically, that a cyclist on a red mountain bike
    > wearing jeans and bright red jacket is right in the spot that our
    > imaginary motorist is merging into. The cyclist is in the middle of
    > this slow lane to avoid the door zone, probably traveling close to 20
    > mph. There's really nowhere for the cyclist to go, so he kicks this
    > hypothetical blue Sebring with his hypothetically cleated MTB shoe and
    > leaves a hypothetical dent in the door. The MTBer immediately makes a
    > right turn and escapes down an imaginary side alley and into the
    > rabbit hole he goes.
    >
    > Let's say that I witnessed this hypothetical interaction from a half
    > block behind.
    >
    > Do I hypothetically know the identity of this ficitious MTBer? Was the
    > MTBer in our story merely acting, hypothetically, in self-defense? Or
    > is he guilty of assault? Do I take the blue pill and believe whatever
    > I want to believe? Or do I take the red pill and see how deep the
    > rabbit hole goes?


    All of the above <GGG>.

    --
    Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in the
    newsgroups if possible).
     
  3. S o r n i

    S o r n i Guest

    Fritz M wrote:
    > Let's say that, hypothetically, a late model blue Chrysler Sebring
    > sedan with Colorado plates 335IER is traveling in the passing lane of
    > a busy, downtown 4-lane street when the driver (blond female
    > caucasian, about 30 years old) merges right into the "slow" lane to
    > pass because 30 mph is too slow for her in this 25 mph zone. Let's
    > also say, hypothetically, that a cyclist on a red mountain bike
    > wearing jeans and bright red jacket is right in the spot that our
    > imaginary motorist is merging into. The cyclist is in the middle of
    > this slow lane to avoid the door zone, probably traveling close to 20
    > mph. There's really nowhere for the cyclist to go, so he kicks this
    > hypothetical blue Sebring with his hypothetically cleated MTB shoe and
    > leaves a hypothetical dent in the door. The MTBer immediately makes a
    > right turn and escapes down an imaginary side alley and into the
    > rabbit hole he goes.
    >
    > Let's say that I witnessed this hypothetical interaction from a half
    > block behind.
    >
    > Do I hypothetically know the identity of this ficitious MTBer? Was the
    > MTBer in our story merely acting, hypothetically, in self-defense? Or
    > is he guilty of assault? Do I take the blue pill and believe whatever
    > I want to believe? Or do I take the red pill and see how deep the
    > rabbit hole goes?


    Keep riding, but retire the red jacket for...a while.

    Bill "and hope the CSI ain't into SPD priints" S.
     
  4. Jim Boyer

    Jim Boyer Guest

    "Fritz M" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Let's say that, hypothetically, a late model blue Chrysler Sebring
    > sedan with Colorado plates 335IER is traveling in the passing lane of
    > a busy, downtown 4-lane street when the driver (blond female
    > caucasian, about 30 years old) merges right into the "slow" lane to
    > pass because 30 mph is too slow for her in this 25 mph zone. Let's
    > also say, hypothetically, that a cyclist on a red mountain bike
    > wearing jeans and bright red jacket is right in the spot that our
    > imaginary motorist is merging into. The cyclist is in the middle of
    > this slow lane to avoid the door zone, probably traveling close to 20
    > mph. There's really nowhere for the cyclist to go, so he kicks this
    > hypothetical blue Sebring with his hypothetically cleated MTB shoe and
    > leaves a hypothetical dent in the door. The MTBer immediately makes a
    > right turn and escapes down an imaginary side alley and into the
    > rabbit hole he goes.
    >
    > Let's say that I witnessed this hypothetical interaction from a half
    > block behind.
    >
    > Do I hypothetically know the identity of this ficitious MTBer? Was the
    > MTBer in our story merely acting, hypothetically, in self-defense? Or
    > is he guilty of assault? Do I take the blue pill and believe whatever
    > I want to believe? Or do I take the red pill and see how deep the
    > rabbit hole goes?
    >
    > RFM


    Hypothetically, at the hypothetical speeds you're describing, the
    hypothetical rider, hypothetically hitting a car hard enough to leave a
    dent, is probably going down on the spot...no pills, no rabbit holes.

    jb
     
  5. Matt O'Toole

    Matt O'Toole Guest

    Fritz M wrote:

    > Let's say that, hypothetically, a late model blue Chrysler Sebring
    > sedan with Colorado plates 335IER is traveling in the passing lane of
    > a busy, downtown 4-lane street when the driver (blond female
    > caucasian, about 30 years old) merges right into the "slow" lane to
    > pass because 30 mph is too slow for her in this 25 mph zone. Let's
    > also say, hypothetically, that a cyclist on a red mountain bike
    > wearing jeans and bright red jacket is right in the spot that our
    > imaginary motorist is merging into. The cyclist is in the middle of
    > this slow lane to avoid the door zone, probably traveling close to 20
    > mph. There's really nowhere for the cyclist to go, so he kicks this
    > hypothetical blue Sebring with his hypothetically cleated MTB shoe and
    > leaves a hypothetical dent in the door. The MTBer immediately makes a
    > right turn and escapes down an imaginary side alley and into the
    > rabbit hole he goes.
    >
    > Let's say that I witnessed this hypothetical interaction from a half
    > block behind.
    >
    > Do I hypothetically know the identity of this ficitious MTBer? Was the
    > MTBer in our story merely acting, hypothetically, in self-defense? Or
    > is he guilty of assault? Do I take the blue pill and believe whatever
    > I want to believe? Or do I take the red pill and see how deep the
    > rabbit hole goes?


    First take an English class. Your post was a real chore to read, and not
    hypothetically..

    If the car is going the cyclist's speed or faster, all the cyclist has to do is
    hit the brakes. This is quicker, easier, and more intuitive than kicking the
    car, especially hard enough to dent it.

    Kicking a car and then escaping down an alley is a jackass punk move. There's
    nothing "self-defense" about it, no matter what the car did. In this instance,
    self-defense is using the brakes. If a cyclist needs to get a driver's
    attention in a hurry, slapping a fender with an open hand does the trick. I
    don't know what this cyclist might be guilty of under the law -- perhaps
    vandalism, if the car was actually damaged.

    Matt O.
     
  6. maxo

    maxo Guest

    On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 13:29:09 -0400, Matt O'Toole wrote:

    > If a cyclist needs to get a driver's
    > attention in a hurry, slapping a fender with an open hand does the trick


    Yup, that's the best, doesn't leave a mark, but wakes somebody the hell up
    fast. Must be used very very sparingly and not just to be a "badass".
     
  7. On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 18:42:51 GMT, maxo <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 13:29:09 -0400, Matt O'Toole wrote:
    >
    >> If a cyclist needs to get a driver's
    >> attention in a hurry, slapping a fender with an open hand does the trick

    >
    >Yup, that's the best, doesn't leave a mark, but wakes somebody the hell up
    >fast. Must be used very very sparingly and not just to be a "badass".


    To be a "badass," nothing beats a Zefal HPx.

    It sure pumps those tires up.

    -Luigi
     
  8. If a cyclist has enough time to unclip and kick a car than there is more
    than enough time to stop or get out of the way. Another nondestructive way
    of getting their attention is to use your waterbottle (squirt or throw).
    Damaging a car is not the way to make drivers want to share the road with
    us. BTW this was all hypothetically speaking!
    LD
     
  9. Fritz M

    Fritz M Guest

    "S o r n i" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Keep riding, but retire the red jacket for...a while.


    My jacket's yellow. I would've braked and maybe slapped the window or
    fender. I also don't own a MTB.

    RFM
     
  10. >Damaging a car is not the way to make drivers want to share the road with
    >us. BTW this was all hypothetically speaking!


    Not all the time.

    Very recently here in New Orleans, a female driver managed to strike a
    bicyclist who, from all accounts, was riding his bicycle entirely legally along
    Veteran's Memorial Boulevard.

    She struck him so hard that one of his legs was amputated; the rest of his body
    was catapulted into a canal.

    The woman sped off after killing the cyclist and managed to get two and a half
    blocks before she hit a tree with her vehicle; the vehicle burst into flames
    and she had to be rescued.

    The cyclist's leg was still embedded in the grill of her vehicle.

    She was roaring drunk and didn't even remember killing the man on the bicycle.

    We'll see what happens to her in Court.


    James S. Prine
    http://hometown.aol.com/jsprine/
     
  11. >We'll see what happens to her in Court.

    How does probation for one year sound? At least that appears likely in this
    Colorado case:

    http://www.summitdaily.com/apps/pbc...06100001&Ref=AR


    REID WILLIAMS
    summit daily news
    June 10, 2004


    SUMMIT COUNTY - Following an investigation of the accident scene, the Colorado
    State Patrol (CSP) has charged a teenager in the death of a bicyclist along
    Highway 9 north of Silverthorne last month.

    CSP Capt. Ron Prater said the 17-year-old Kremmling resident was charged with
    first-class misdemeanor careless driving resulting in death. The charge carries
    possible penalties of 10 days to one year in jail, and a possible fine of
    between $100 and $1,000.

    The teenager was driving south on Highway 9 from Kremmling the afternoon of May
    2, when the driver allegedly drifted off the road onto the shoulder, hitting a
    cyclist.

    Jeffrey Ferber, 59, a New Yorker who had moved to Frisco five years earlier,
    was pronounced dead at the scene. An avid cyclist, Copper Mountain ski
    instructor and semi-retired accountant, Ferber died of traumatic head injuries
    despite wearing a helmet.

    Ferber was reportedly stopped on the shoulder near mile 106, waiting for a
    fellow biker to catch up, when the accident occurred.

    Prater said investigators believe the teenager was looking at the car's clock
    to check the time and drifted off the road.

    "This was simply a case of inattentive driving," Prater said Thursday. "When
    you're driving down the road, you can't forget that you have the lives of
    everyone around you in your hands."

    In a sad twist, Ferber's death occurred as the State Patrol and other law
    enforcement agencies around the state were set to embark on a week-long,
    stepped-up enforcement campaign aimed at reducing traffic fatalities over the
    Memorial Day weekend.

    Dubbed "Zero Week," local police departments and sheriff's offices joined state
    troopers in saturation patrols on the lookout for speeders, seat belt scofflaws
    and drivers with improperly restrained children.

    In Summit County, officers from the Frisco, Dillon, Silverthorne and
    Breckenridge police departments and Summit County Sheriff's Office deputies
    joined troopers on Interstate 70 and Highway 9 north of Silverthorne. Prater
    said the patrols put extra emphasis on Highway 9 following Ferber's death.

    Prater said the patrols issued 300 speeding tickets, cited more than 50
    aggressive drivers, logged 150 seat belt violations and 15 child restraint
    infractions. Nineteen accidents occurred during "Zero Week," only one of which
    was alcohol-related. Summit County saw no traffic fatalities that week, even
    with wintry weather that left areas slick with ice.



    http://members.aol.com/foxcondorsrvtns
    (Colorado rental condo)

    http://members.aol.com/dnvrfox
    (Family Web Page)
     
  12. Steve Knight

    Steve Knight Guest


    >To be a "badass," nothing beats a Zefal HPx.
    >


    no a paintball gun or better yet a uzi os the badass thing to do (G)

    --
    Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
    Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
    See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.
     
  13. mark

    mark Guest

    "Denver C. Fox" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > >We'll see what happens to her in Court.

    >
    > How does probation for one year sound? At least that appears likely in

    this
    > Colorado case:
    >

    Why do you think that a year's probation is likely?
    At any rate, I don't see this as being in quite the same league as the drunk
    lady in New Orleans.

    --
    mark
    Frisco, CO
     
  14. "Matt O'Toole" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > Kicking a car and then escaping down an alley is a jackass punk move. There's
    > nothing "self-defense" about it, no matter what the car did. In this

    instance,
    > self-defense is using the brakes. If a cyclist needs to get a driver's
    > attention in a hurry, slapping a fender with an open hand does the trick. I
    > don't know what this cyclist might be guilty of under the law -- perhaps
    > vandalism, if the car was actually damaged.
    >
    > Matt O.
    >


    Fuck you. Any fucking car that swerves into my lane gets a fucking ding. And
    if I see you on the road I'll tip you, TOOL.
     
  15. "mark" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > "Denver C. Fox" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > >We'll see what happens to her in Court.

    > >
    > > How does probation for one year sound? At least that appears likely in

    > this
    > > Colorado case:
    > >

    > Why do you think that a year's probation is likely?
    > At any rate, I don't see this as being in quite the same league as the drunk
    > lady in New Orleans.
    >
    > --
    > mark
    > Frisco, CO
    >
    >


    Isn't everyone drunk in New Orleans? I wager the person gets off with 10 days
    and a 2 year suspension.
     
  16. On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 04:42:44 GMT, "Flint Fredstone"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >
    >"Matt O'Toole" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]
    >>
    >> Kicking a car and then escaping down an alley is a jackass punk move. There's
    >> nothing "self-defense" about it, no matter what the car did. In this

    >instance,
    >> self-defense is using the brakes. If a cyclist needs to get a driver's
    >> attention in a hurry, slapping a fender with an open hand does the trick. I
    >> don't know what this cyclist might be guilty of under the law -- perhaps
    >> vandalism, if the car was actually damaged.
    >>
    >> Matt O.
    >>

    >
    >Fuck you. Any fucking car that swerves into my lane gets a fucking ding. And
    >if I see you on the road I'll tip you, TOOL.
    >


    Exactly the sort of behaviour that gets you on the sh*t list of
    motorists generally, and your local constabulary.

    I have slapped and knocked before, as warnings, in slow-moving
    situations (lumbering SUVs wandering, and the like). At the speeds
    cited in the original post, I would either be fleeing or roadkill.

    -Luigi
     
  17. >Isn't everyone drunk in New Orleans? I wager the person gets off with 10
    >days
    >and a 2 year suspension.


    It is no secret that we are 'proud' of our drive-thru daiquiri shops, where one
    may purchase liquor BY THE GALLON. Many barrooms are literally open 'round the
    clock' to better serve the public.

    In addition to the exciting driving conditions, we pay some of the highest
    insurance premiums in the United States.

    Can there be a correlation here?



    James S. Prine
    http://hometown.aol.com/jsprine/
     
  18. Hunrobe

    Hunrobe Guest

    >[email protected] (Fritz M)

    wrote a very long post and then asked:

    >Was the
    >MTBer in our story merely acting, hypothetically, in self-defense? Or
    >is he guilty of assault?


    Under Illinois law he's guilty of leaving the scene of a motor vehicle property
    damage crash. (Vehicle + vehicle + contact + damage = crash) He's also not very
    bright if he makes a habit of kicking car doors hard enough to damage them
    while he's riding at 20 mph and the cars are passing him at a somewhat greater
    speed. There's nothing hypothetical about hitting the pavement at 20 mph.

    BTW, I wouldn't worry too much about your duty to report the incident to the
    police since you likely misread the plate unless of course the owner recently
    traded in her black '97 VW for a late model blue Sebring and just hasn't
    transferred the plates yet. If I have time tomorrow I'll call Kerrie and ask
    her.

    Regards,
    Bob Hunt
     
  19. >Why do you think that a year's probation is likely?
    >At any rate, I don't see this as being in quite the same league as the drunk
    >lady in New Orleans.


    I'll bet you some $$ that this girl gets probation. She is 17, from Kremmling
    (local). Perhaps I will be wrong, but that is my bet.

    No, not the same league, agreed - but symptomatic of the small value placed on
    human life.

    As a contrast, the two school administrators in Elizabeth (Elbert County, CO)
    who stole about $100,000 each are facing 6 years in jail.

    This girl is facing a MAX of 1 year in jail for killing someone, and I
    personally belive that is quite unlikely, and she will end up with probation or
    Community Service.


    http://members.aol.com/foxcondorsrvtns
    (Colorado rental condo)

    http://members.aol.com/dnvrfox
    (Family Web Page)
     
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