I can't wait for the return of Floyd Landis!



FreeHueco

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I simply have to throw in my two cents...

Who f#$%ing cares who's doping and who isn't? These people get paid to ride 2100 miles over the course of three weeks; let's see anyone on this forum do that at their pace without doping...

All the arguments back and forth only hurt the sport. Look at the sorry state of other sports like baseball, American football, and basketball. People dope in those sports as well. And honestly, who cares? It's their lives that they might be ruining. Let us just watch the Tour de France without bickering about whether anyone is cheating or not. Because if everyone is cheating, the competition is 'on a level playing field'.
 

WIGGUM1

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FreeHueco said:
I simply have to throw in my two cents...

Who f#$%ing cares who's doping and who isn't? These people get paid to ride 2100 miles over the course of three weeks; let's see anyone on this forum do that at their pace without doping...

All the arguments back and forth only hurt the sport. Look at the sorry state of other sports like baseball, American football, and basketball. People dope in those sports as well. And honestly, who cares? It's their lives that they might be ruining. Let us just watch the Tour de France without bickering about whether anyone is cheating or not. Because if everyone is cheating, the competition is 'on a level playing field'.



I can understand your arguement and if in fact everyone were doping then theoretically yes, the field woulld be level. However, I believe this thread is more about the ethical issue of doping. In the beginning, doping was not necessarily considered an unfair edge, it was just this magical element that improved performance. Now we know better. It may be their own lives they are destroying, but they cannot deny the fact they are role models. Just look at high school atheltes these days, especially in Texas. These kids see professional sprots as the end all be all of life. They are the ones destroying their bodies because they think there is no other way to compete. Saying who cares who dopes is similar to saying who cares what NBA or NFL star carries a gun. Once a professional, you have an obligation to the sport to promote the future of that sport in a healthy way.
 

Bro Deal

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CAMPYBOB said:
I can't wait for the return of Patrick Sinkewitz!
Landis' testosterone:epitestosterone ratio was 11:1. Sinkewitz' was 24:1. I cannot wait for the return of Kessler, who had an 85:1 ratio. Hopefully he will be able to sit on the saddle with the size of balls he must have.
 

FreeHueco

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WIGGUM1 said:
I can understand your arguement and if in fact everyone were doping then theoretically yes, the field woulld be level. However, I believe this thread is more about the ethical issue of doping. In the beginning, doping was not necessarily considered an unfair edge, it was just this magical element that improved performance. Now we know better. It may be their own lives they are destroying, but they cannot deny the fact they are role models. Just look at high school atheltes these days, especially in Texas. These kids see professional sprots as the end all be all of life. They are the ones destroying their bodies because they think there is no other way to compete. Saying who cares who dopes is similar to saying who cares what NBA or NFL star carries a gun. Once a professional, you have an obligation to the sport to promote the future of that sport in a healthy way.


Fine, but can we at least use the same argument against a certain former president, that he is supposed to be a role model and should not be staining dresses and lying about it under oath?

The difference in the pro sports is that they tend to have rules that make the rider guilty until proven innocent. Perhaps if system had to prove that the rider was doping before he was taken out of competition it could be more fair. In cycling, anyone with a grudge against someone else can simply accuse that person of doping and ****! he's out of the peleton. That just is not right.

I understand that proffessionals need to realize that they are role models for the kids; but their are other things to consider. Should a rider be disqualified for taking a bee sting medication? For something that keeps the swelling down from an injury sustained in a race? For having too much ibuprofen in his system (has anyone here not used that on a long ride?)? What about caffeine? There have to be limits on what is considered a banned substance, otherwise eating and drinking during a race might be banned...
 

Bro Deal

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FreeHueco said:
Because if everyone is cheating, the competition is 'on a level playing field'.
It's never level. Aside from the fact that different people respond differently to the same dope, there is a huge financial difference. Ullrich evidetly paid Dr. Fuentes 30K Euros a year, although there have been reports of up to 70K. Most pros don't make anywhere near enough to afford that kind of fee. Armstrong paid Dr. Ferrari hundreds of thousands a year.
 

FreeHueco

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Bro Deal said:
It's never level. Aside from the fact that different people respond differently to the same dope, there is a huge financial difference. Ullrich evidetly paid Dr. Fuentes 30K Euros a year, although there have been reports of up to 70K. Most pros don't make anywhere near enough to afford that kind of fee. Armstrong paid Dr. Ferrari hundreds of thousands a year.


Well, using that argument, the playing field will never be level. Some people are naturally gifted, some people work harder in training, some people have more time to train, some have better metabolisms, some are lighter, some have more fast twitch muscles fibers, some have better endurance, some have better team mechanics, some have better luck, and countless other things that might make them a better cyclist than someone else. Having access to banned substances that may or may not help them is just another thing to add to the list...

[sarcasm]I can't afford the $10,000 for a spiffy new racing bike; but boy if I did, I could be a great cyclist![/sarcasm]
 

Bro Deal

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FreeHueco said:
Well, using that argument, the playing field will never be level. Some people are naturally gifted, some people work harder in training, some people have more time to train, some have better metabolisms, some are lighter, some have more fast twitch muscles fibers, some have better endurance, some have better team mechanics, some have better luck, and countless other things that might make them a better cyclist than someone else. Having access to banned substances that may or may not help them is just another thing to add to the list...
Ridiculous analogy. We accept differences in "talent" as just. We don't accept that races should be won by whoever can afford the most dope and the best doctor's advice.
 

CAMPYBOB

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Bro Deal said:
Landis' testosterone:epitestosterone ratio was 11:1. Sinkewitz' was 24:1. I cannot wait for the return of Kessler, who had an 85:1 ratio. Hopefully he will be able to sit on the saddle with the size of balls he must have.
LNDD must really have it in for mathius!:D
 

CAMPYBOB

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Bro Deal said:
Ridiculous analogy. We accept differences in "talent" as just. We don't accept that races should be won by whoever can afford the most dope and the best doctor's advice.
So...I'm guessing Eddie will now be considered persona non grata at the tour and he and Bjarne can watch the tour from Toto's couch with Ale Jet and Ivan?

Zabel! Go get us some beers! It's your turn! Anquetil! You go for pizza!

Alas, poor Marco...we hardly knew ye!
 

daveydave

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Was it over when the French bombed Pear Harbor?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K92OVFeGgIE


Bro Deal said:
Landis' testosterone:epitestosterone ratio was 11:1. Sinkewitz' was 24:1. I cannot wait for the return of Kessler, who had an 85:1 ratio. Hopefully he will be able to sit on the saddle with the size of balls he must have.
LMAO! I think a new jersey could be given out for the finisher with the most swollen balls!
 

Bro Deal

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WIGGUM1 said:
HA "When the going gets tough................the tough get going!" HA
Bluto's right. Psychotic, but absolutely right. We gotta take these bastards. Now we could do it with conventional weapons that could take years and cost millions of lives. No, I think we have to go all out. I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part.
 

TEXAS_NORSEMAN

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Doping or not doping, and the silly name-calling games everyone plays in general brings down the sport of cycling. although we should not forget why we, the "average joe" ride for pure enjoyment, health benefits, and the overall love of the bike. i know that no matter what the pro's decide to do for themselves it is not going to effect my love for the bike, the road, and sounds and sights that make riding so enjoyable!
 

WIGGUM1

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TEXAS_NORSEMAN said:
Doping or not doping, and the silly name-calling games everyone plays in general brings down the sport of cycling. although we should not forget why we, the "average joe" ride for pure enjoyment, health benefits, and the overall love of the bike. i know that no matter what the pro's decide to do for themselves it is not going to effect my love for the bike, the road, and sounds and sights that make riding so enjoyable!
Well put.
 

blackwax

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Cycler6n said:
I'm an American and Christian, I think Floyd Landis was a doper, and should be suspended. I heard that he told Lemond that he doped, and Lemond told the court, under oath. Personally, I don't like Landis, sure, he's a better cyclist than me, but if you have to cheat, you dirty the name of cycling.

perhaps you misunderstand the definition of "implicit." my read of that article does not indicate that Lanis admitted doping. however, it clearly does indicate that LeMond drew his own conclusions. its super unlikely that someone would test positive for testosterone one day but not the next, check the half-lives of the various testosterone preparations. only Landis really knows if he doped, but it seems to me that enough errors were made in the custody chain, that the benefit of the doubt is owed to Landis. also, whats with LeMond? he's got a pretty big chip on his shoulder..
 

blackwax

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surfrider said:
Well stated! I remember when I was a kid. When the Olympics came on, family's would flock the the tv to watch. There was never any mention of doping, steroids, enhancement drugs etc. Those were the days when people would win based on how hard they trained and sheer dedication and a burning drive to defeat the opponent. It seems now that just about every product made for people involved in sports contains some sort of additive to increase strength, stamina, endurance, and so on. This is why we see athletes in all major sporting events being striped of their greatest achievements. But, I do think if test have to be conducted to determine the guilt or innocence of an athlete, it should be done by a minimum of two labs in which there is no affiliation. This is why the military has procedures and protocol to follow so one person can't push the big red button and launch a bunch of nuclear missiles just because they're having a bad day.
I think this would dissolve much of the he said she said and the media frenzy that seem to escalate these type of situations, which lead to rumors and a lot of false accusations. When a person is guilty, their reputation is ruined. When a person is not guilty, but accused their reputation is still ruined. This is the SOP of society.

people have been doping in the olympics for 40+ years. read the history of the USA Weightlifting Team. it was a US doctor and coach of the team that popularized testosterone in the US.

i am strongly against doping but its naive to assume that this is something new.