I have a question

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by bikedude40k, Nov 18, 2006.

  1. bikedude40k

    bikedude40k New Member

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    Right now, I have a really awful bike, as I am told at every strart line of the Cat. 1 races. A Cannondale R400, as it were, and I have no tt bike. I was considering getting either a CAAD 8 Optimo, a Six13, or an R5000. They are all awesome bikes, but I just got an R1000 frame from ebay. It is nice, and only cost $150. The problem with that is that I need all kinds of components to make it work, as the stuff on my R400 is not great, and I still have a triple on there- I'm only 17, don't tell me I'm a wuss, I never use the unspeakable Granny gear- and I want Dura Ace, which runs another 700 to $1000. The local bike shop; however, has offered me a deal on either an R5000 or a Six13 (or a SystemSix- I want it, but it's $3500!) to trade in the very $150 frame for $450 off one of those bikes. Any reccomendations as to what I should do?
     
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  2. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    OK : first of all it's the man on the bike, and not the bike, which wins any race.
    So before going out and spending you hard earned cash, I suggest that you need to decide what you want from a bike.

    Do you want to race ? I presume from your post that you do want to race.
    Therefore, instead of asking at your local bike shop (LBS) about bikes, you need to decide what level of competition you intend to compete at and then look at the bikes that your would be competitors use.

    I train the younger members at my local club : I see guys spending thousands of euros of bikes/equipment etc.
    These guys look the part - but can they race? In most cases, they're pretty poor. They want to look the part but they have trouble putting in the effort.

    So my advise is - look at the bikes used by your competition.
    Then decide if you're prepared to really make a go of it.
    If you are - then I suggest investing to whatever level you feel comfortable with.
    If you're not going to make a real go of racing - then I suggest you stick with mid-range priced bikes.
     
  3. capwater

    capwater New Member

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    R1000 and R5000 is the same CAAD8 frame, just Ultegra vs. Dura Ace components built up.
     
  4. bobbyOCR

    bobbyOCR New Member

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    There are no awful bikes just awful attitudes. If you have been convinced your bike is awful, then the convincers are the ones with bad attitudes. If you win races on that, then it is not an awful bike. Besides, any great bike still needs nearly the same effort to push it.
     
  5. Insight Driver

    Insight Driver New Member

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    BobbyOCR said it well, it take nearly the same effort to ride a cheap bike fast as it does an expensive one. Now, as far as performance goes, it's smarter money that would go into better wheels, good frame, and Ultegra drive train. The only advantage to Dura-Ace, in my opinion, is in bling, not in anything that would make a difference in a race. What will make a difference is good, sturdy wheels since they take a beating in race conditions. Even 105 components can be on a good frame with excellent wheels that would suit an elite rider. Be practical instead of thinking that an expensive bike works any better than a cheaper bike.
     
  6. bikedude40k

    bikedude40k New Member

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    I already have a pair of SyriumElites, though.
     
  7. Retro Grouch

    Retro Grouch New Member

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    Two things:
    1. It's the motor.
    2. Even if a $3,500 bike would make you faster, it doesn't matter if you don't have $3,500.

    I'd use my current bike as a component donor maybe upgrade a few things like the crankset and front derailleur. Then ride lots. If you get to where you can perform respectably with crappy equipment, better equipment will happen.
     
  8. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    If you are already racing CAT 1, then you're doing fine.

    You will get the most bang-for-your buck by buying a pre-2007 pair of Campagnolo CENTAUR 10-speed shifters + a rear derailleur (my workstand tests show that a Shimano 10-speed 105 or 10-speed rear can be substituted OR you can get an XTR 950/952 normal rise rear derailleur and use the hubbub.com alternate anchor position to use the Campagnolo shifters with a 9-speed Shimano cassette) ...


    To use this hubbub.com cable anchoring with a Shimano 9-speed Ultegra/105/ROAD rear derailleur, you would need a set of 9-speed Campagnolo shifters.

    NEW pre-2007 shifters seem to sell for between $90US & $140US ... the XTR rear derailleur is about $50US/used.

    New handlebar tape will set you back about $8US.

    To turn your triple crankset into a double, just remove the crank, remove the granny, put the crank back on your bike, adjust the inner stop on your front derailleur.

    You can certainly get a used set of Open Pro rims on Ultegra hubs for under $200US. A new set isn't that much more.

    Your LBS isn't doing you any favors, BTW/IMO, with that offer ... I'll sell you a bike for $3500US which is nicer, but probably the wrong size (e.g., 53cm Colnago).
     
  9. bikedude40k

    bikedude40k New Member

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    I'd like to stick with that shop though, 'cause he'll throw in a flight deck computer and lots of stuff like that for cheap. Plus, since I race for the team that he sponsors, he'll give me that discount, and it will be a lot more convienient too. Thanks for the offer, though! By the way, what is the model?


    I did not know that the R1000 and the R5000 are the same frame! It would be a lot cheaper to just get some DuraAce Components, as I already have a pair of SyriumElites (Sryiums on Sora- it drives me crazy to ride with people who don't already know me with stuff like that)
    Oh, actually, this one is from two years ago, so I think it's a CAAD 6 or CAAD 7 frame.
     
  10. rainrider

    rainrider New Member

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    I think i'm right in saying that one of the most important things on a bike is light wheels ,tyres ,and less so inner tubes ,as long as the rest of the bike isn't super heavy i'd sink some money into some mavic ksyriums or the like as i rekon you'll see most benefit for your cash this route,anyone care to chip in on this one?a nice stiff frame helps too...

    oops i see you've got some mavics already,i'll read ALL of the posts next time:eek:
     
  11. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    MY Colnago is a 2001 C40 ... the one that is pre-B-STAY ... cable adjusters on the downtube instead of downtube bosses ... only ~800 miles since I found (what a lot of custom framebuilders will tell you) that the geometry means more than the material in dictating how a frame rides ... they are, by my unsophisticated sensibilities, correct.

    FYI/BTW. My "Winter" bike is a mid-80s, steel (economy, Reynolds 501 tubing) frame which has EXACTLY the same main-triangle geometry -- same angles & same tube lengths. With comparable components, the two bikes ride virtually the same to me! What's with that?!? The only difference in the geometry is that the stays on the Peugeot are slightly longer because it is a fender-capable, sports-touring frame.

    Okay, the Colnago weighed about 17 lbs before I took it apart (it had plebian Ultegra 6500 components on it ... it could have been a half-pound, or more, lighter with Campagnolo components + lighter wheels ... it has been in a CrateWorks box for the past 3+ years with most of the parts stripped off of it). The Peugeot weighs in at just under 21 lbs with pedals & water bottle cages, etc.

    Even now, the one frame is worth at least 100x (if not more) as much as the other, but (again) the ride is almost the same (I can't say it often enough).

    BTW2. When I replaced the Peugeot's original, steel fork with a LOOK fork, the bike shed about 1 lb. of weight, but the ride did not change at all ...

    It IS INDEED the geometry of the frame that matters more than the material ... or, you might surmise (as I have) that high end carbon tries to emulate common steel with regard to ride characteristics.
     
  12. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    BTW. When asked, I generally recommend FLIGHT DECK computers, BUT only because Shimano is always making new harnesses readily available, separately. But, they aren't the best computer head (I still have two) ... and, the computer heads (9-speed ... but, that feature only matters with regard to the cog-indicator ... I'm now using UNIVERSAL mounts with Campagnolo ERGO shifters) are only about $20US on eBay, now (+ harness); so, don't be enamoured with the notion of getting one from your shop or elsewhere.
     
  13. bobbyOCR

    bobbyOCR New Member

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    Alfeng. Does the alternate cable-route allow the use of a Shimano rear end with a set of '06 centaur shifters. That grey would match the SL01, lighten it up and give me the dumping power for the upcoming crits.

    One ting, how are campy ergonomics, they look lumpy and uncomfortable. Is the _______/-\ shape because its longer than Shimano's? That is theonly thing holding me back.

    Also, DON'T GET KSYRIUMS. They are the most overrated, overhyped wheel you can get. They have the aerodynamics of a 32 15g wheelset, they are flexy, and they are overpriced. Take a look at Neuvations, ROL, Excelsports custom wheels or any campy wheels.
     
  14. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    All of the 10-speed Campagnolo shifters have the SAME indexing ... so, the hubbub.com alternate cable anchoring will work with the 2006 Centaur shifters + XTR 950/952 rear derailleur and any 9-speed Shimano cassette.

    Despite what many people believe, there is a difference in geometry of the different Shimano rear derailleurs -- 10-speed, 9-speed ROAD, 8-speed ROAD, and MTB rear derailleurs -- but, there is enough micro-imprecision in the indexing that the 8-/9-speed rear derailleurs are apparently interchangeable; but, the slight variance is why Shimano undoubtedly mandated that parts NOT be intermixed from different groups.

    A 9-speed XT rear derailleur was (surprisingly) unsatisfactory when trying to use the hubbub.com alternate anchoring during a quick test (i.e., "failed" installation), but I didn't spend a lot of time with it to ascertain why (i.e., I might not have properlly anchored the derailleur cable) and reverted to installing an XTR rear derailleur ...

    The 8-speed MTB & 8-speed ROAD rear derailleurs appear to have the same geometry ...

    The 8-speed (950) & 9-speed (952) XTR rear derailleurs have the same geometry, and the signicant difference was the change from 10t pulleys to 11t pulleys.

    The anchor point on the 10-speed Shimano rear IS different, and closely mimics that of the Campagnolo rear derailleur ... and, my quickie observation is that the 10-speed Shimano rear derailleur is interechangeable for a current Campagnolo rear derailleur (i.e., I put a 6600 rear derailleur on a 9-speed ERGO shifter and mated it to a 9-speed Campagnolo cassette ... at least, I think I did for that moment in time).

    YOUR RESULTS MAY VARY!

    Ultimately, a lot depends on which Shimano rear derailleur you want to mate to which cassette (9-speed or 10-speed).

    For example, to index a 6500 (9-speed Ultegra) ROAD rear derailleur with a 9-speed Shimano cassette, I needed to use the hubbub.com alternate anchor position and a 9-speed Campagnolo shifter.

    A lot of people just resort to a JTEK Shiftmate, and that is a good alternative (but as expensive as most rear derailleurs!) if you don't have the "collection" of rear derailleurs to mess around with to try to find the optimum combination.

    BTW. When using the hubbub.com anchoring, it helps to hold the derailleur cable's "end" with a pair of pliers (which I do, regardless) while fiddling with the anchor "washer."

    Now, as far as different hood shapes of the different shifters -- the reach & shape WERE a concern for me, too, before I made the switch from the Shimano & Campagnolo shifters...

    BUT, I think you will wonder what your concern was AFTER you use the Campagnolo shifters for a few rides.

    If your riding position is dialed-in, then the ONE thing you may need to consider is either a slightly shorter stem OR adjusting your handlebars (rotate them DOWN) so that you can mount the Campagnolo shifters further back on the bend OR use different bars ...

    This brings up a minor (but, not really) point about so-called frame-fit ... it generally doesn't seem to take into account the fact that different bars have different forward reach as well as a different drop AND that the bend has a signficant effect on where the brake levers are mounted. Further, MOST Shimano levers seem to be mounted too low & forward on the bars TO ME ... but, I guess that is a matter of personal preference. Several years ago, I deduced by trial-and-error that having the rear of the rise of the Shimano brake lever being almost vertical (and the name plate almost horizontal) was the most comfortable FOR ME ... the appearance seemed odd when compared with the fresh-from-the-shop positioning, but then I noticed that a lot of tour riders had come to the same conclusion, so that is how I set them up.

    BLAH, Blah, blah ...

    Anway, I try to set up ALL my bikes the same regardless of the frame size ... I set the saddle fore-and-aft AND THEN I measure forward to establish the reach for when I am riding on the hoods ... consequently, the stem length is used to adjust for different bars & levers to a variance of about 1/4 inch (that's close enough for me) between several different bikes.

    So, BEFORE you switch to Campagnolo levers, measure the distance from the rear of YOUR saddle to the back of the hood's "vertical" rise to ensure that the TRUE reach you end up with is the same!

    BTW. When installing the ERGO levers, I suggest that you run/route BOTH cable housings in FRONT of the bars (ignore the rear groove, if your bars have them) ... there seems to be less resistance (for me) when the derailleur cable housing is laid above the brake cable housing than when using the REAR routing.

    FWIW. I agree with your impression regarding the Ksyrium SSL wheels -- they look nice, but they are really high maintenance ... if anyone gets them, then I strongly recommend one of MAVIC's metal spoke wrenches since the plastic one is probably good for only two-or-three spoke adjustments before it fails/strips.
     
  15. bobbyOCR

    bobbyOCR New Member

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    One more thing, do I need a Jtek to use a 10 speed Shimano cassette, Shimano 10 speed derailleur and ergos?
     
  16. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    Well, maybe ... and, maybe, not!?!

    The ONE cassette type that I've never bothered to get is a 10-speed Shimano, though I suppose I could cobble up a faux-cassette out of cardboard to play with the indexing ...

    I'm going to guess, and I think I said this before in another thread (but, I think my answer then, as perhaps now) was too convoluted ...

    BY MY RECKONING -- based on MY understanding of the X, Y, & Z planes that the derailleur cage moves through AND other compatible mixes-and-matches -- if you were to use the hubbub.com alternate derailleur cable anchor position on a 10-speed Shimano rear derailleur (e.g., Shimano 6600, Ultegra 10-speed rear derailleur), then the 10-speed ERGO shifter will probably match the indexing -- BUT, IT MIGHT NOT. That's just a speculation on my part which I'm not motivated enough to pony up the money for a cassette just to try out EVEN though I was obvously motivated enough to test the indexing of a Shimano 6600 rear derailleur against the Campagnolo rear derailleur's indexing.

    So, why might it work?

    The reason is because the Shimano-designated, Alternate Anchor position at 9 o'clock will allow a 10-speed Shimano rear derailleur to index as a 9-speed rear derailleur.

    A 10-speed ERGO at shifter indexes to a 9-speed Shimano cassette when anchored at on an XTR rear derailleur at 3 o'clock ... so, it presumably anchors to a 10-speed rear derailleur NORMALLY for a 9-speed ...

    Hence, when the 10-speed Shimano rear derailleur is anchored at 3 o'clock, it will possibly/probably index to a 10-speed Shimano cassette.

    I may have left out a step in the logic ... but, again, by my reckoning, if you have a 10-speed Shimano drivetrain, if you were to implement the hubbub.com anchoring, I think you will probably be good-to-go! If it isn't good-to-go, the indexing should be very, very close.

    The JTEK would allow you to fine-tune, if necessary, the indexing OR to avoid the hubbub.com anchoring (which is FREE, of course).

    What OTHER people have done to fine-tune cog spacing is to add a shim between each loose cog made from a soda/beer can ...

    Depending on the variance, if any, of the indexing, shimming or shaving the loose spacers may be the easier (well, cheaper) way to fine-tune the indexing.

    I hope that somehow makes sense ...

    The WORST (?) case scenario would be to sell your 10-speed Shimano cassette and get a 10-speed Shimano-to-Campagnolo cassette (either Wheels Manufacturing OR American Classic) UNLESS my quickie observation with regard to interchangeability between the 10-speed Shimano rear derailleurs & Campagnolo rear derailleurs was flawed!

    FWIW. The Wheels Manufacturing cassette is supposed to be better (or, so I've read ... hype?), but I don't know how that can be since the American Classic is (to the best of my knowledge) individual cogs that have been respaced whereas the Wheels Manufacturing cassette that I have CLEARLY began life as a 9-speed Ultegra cassette -- the back-side of the spider was milled out a couple of millimeters to allow the cassette to sit closer to the bike's centerline ... the loose spacers are narrower AND the lockring was ground thinner so it all could fit on the "standard" Shimano freehub. I opted for the Wheels variant because they had one with a woosie 27t largest cog whereas my recollection is that the American Classic's cassette only had a 25t largest cog.

    I hate for you to be a guinea pig in mating 10-speed ERGOS to 10-speed Shimano cassettes based on my mental machinations ... but, someone has to be the first!
     
  17. DiabloScott

    DiabloScott New Member

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    If he were really a 17 year old Cat 1 he wouldn't be asking this question.
     
  18. Archibald

    Archibald New Member

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    without having read a lot of what's above as it seems to degrade into this part versus that part or similar, I'd recommend building up your new frame.
    doesn't matter what the parts are as long as you gradually upgrading. you can sell the older parts as you go to help recover some of the cost.
    but essentially, you need to answer one question for yourself:
    "Is there anything you can do on a $3,500 bike that you can't do on a $500 [or other value] bike?", then weigh up whether the extra cost is worth it.
    don't forget the expression "all the gear, no idea" while you're at it.
    if folks are looking down on you as some sort of chump because they think your bike is rubbish, then just head out and beat them. if you lose to them, it doesn't matter coz you're only a chump. but if they get beaten by a chump....
     
  19. bobbyOCR

    bobbyOCR New Member

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    I'll give it a shot. I am going to replace my Shimano R500 with Fulcrum 7s when the bearings die, which by the look of the hubs will be very soon. I can get campy freehub body on those. I can also either replace the freehub body on the DT wheels or if it comes to replacing them (looks like it) will opt for campy cassette. It is time to replace the 105 cassette after 15,000km so it doesn't eat up my new chain. Instead of a Shimano, I'll go campy.

    And I don't care about being a guinea pig.
     
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