I need a 19 watt increase.....

Discussion in 'Power Training' started by 10kman, Aug 19, 2012.

  1. lanierb

    lanierb New Member

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    10kman: thanks for the info. Your training is unstructured but pretty good actually. Sounds like a lot of endurance (L3) work and 15-18hrs/wk in season. Honestly that's a pretty good amount already, and the training is pretty good for FTP. The things you are missing are FTP and higher power work. E.g. FTP work would be 3x20 min intervals with 5 mins rest in between at, say 100-105% of your FTP. At some point (usually a few weeks out from your event) you may also benefit from some VO2max work, e.g. 6-8 x 4-5 minute intervals with 4-5 mins rest at about 110-120% of FTP. You could also work in some SST intervals (say 60-90mins at 90% FTP) somewhere. These are my main observations.

    That said, I think that given your ability and experience level and extensive training and goals, if you seriously want to make a run at getting better for next year's race then I would hire a coach to help you with some structured training.
     


  2. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    I agree with lanierb's suggestion to consider getting a coach to develop and monitor/modify a structured training plan. And, I thought of something that may appeal to your desire to "see where I am on a regular basis." I favor constant power rides to exhaustion to establish data points on my power-duration curve at all durations. I didn't really understand this test ride concept until I began to do MAP testing as widely used in England and elsewhere. A constant power ride to exhaustion sounds sort of ominous, but it's really not that bad. The basic idea is that you choose a power target that you can't sustain forever. After you get warmed up, you just ride at your target power until you can no longer maintain it. The elapsed duration defines a data point on your power-duration curve. If you choose a power target in the L4 ranges, it is really nothing more than an L4 effort. You don't need to have paramedics standing by (unless you want to impress your wife or girlfriend), you don't fall off the bike and you don't need any more recovery than you would normally for the same TSS points. In your case, you might want to choose your target FTP (350W) for these test rides. You could do this every couple of weeks (or even once a week if you want). To be comparable from test to test, you should try to have a similar TSS on the day prior to the test. I do these on my CT, but you could do them on a trainer or outside. Some people HATE these types of rides, but I have learned to almost enjoy them. I think after a few weeks you'll have a chart on the wall where you can mark your progress toward the magic 60min mark.
     
  3. swampy1970

    swampy1970 Well-Known Member

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    10kman,

    You say your bike is 14.5 without bottles. It's an hour long event, uphill... you need fluids. Factor in the weight of a bottle and the necessary bits.
     
  4. 10kman

    10kman New Member

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    I mentioned the bike was 14.5 pounds and noted I carried up a bottle. It's also pretty difficult to get in a decent fluid intake, it's tough to gasp and chug from the bottle on a steep uphill. The advice here is great. I'm mildly overwhelmed due to the amount of time I have until next year, planning that far out even with experimentation time built in there worries me that I could get stale or burnt out over the winter, and hose me come summer. So, I want to be carefully steady with my approach. I liked the idea of riding at a target FTP until failure, and monitoring the progress. Going weekly or every other though, is that too much for an "off season"? I think an issue as well was that I had an off season, and always started off from the same spot, never ahead. That's due to me not having a race season like most have, I just do two races a year and ride for kicks the rest of the time. Can I poll everyone and ask when you do your basing and what you do, and how long it is? How far out from your peak part of the season do you do it, and duration?
     
  5. swampy1970

    swampy1970 Well-Known Member

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    You don't need to have a race to train. You don't need to train to have a race... but if you want to maximise how you perform during a race, you take care of things like this during training.

    It might seem like a small thing but if you need fluids during an hour long race and you're having difficulty drinking on a hill during a 100% FTP effort, then you make drinking under a 100% FTP effort something you do during training. If you have a hill that's 5+ minutes long - go up it at max effort and drink. It's not about getting the fluid in you - it's about you getting used to getting fluids in you under effort. Like anything else it's hard at first. You need to figure out what you need but you also need to get used to drinking during a high effort.

    We all concentrate on putting out 15 megazoobs of power but sometimes the details escape us. If you're dehydrated in the last 20 minutes (due to heat AND altitude) then you're going to be down a massive amount of power during the race...

    As for time trial training - it's easy. FTP work. Andy Coggan did an ace powerpoint presentation of the 'demands of the indivudual pursuit'. I can't remember it's name or where the link is but google is your friend. The only phase of that training you really need to change is the last one - but not by much as you really do need to work on that short term anerobic effort even for a 1 hour effort such as this hill climb. It really does help to get you up, and recover after, any steep sections - plus it 'drags up' the power nicely.

    Personally, I'd start now. There's no time like the present.

    I often wondered why people took a bunch of time off during the winter - this was 20 years ago. With Wiggo's new fangled altered training winter schedules, I'm left wondering that fact even more...
     
  6. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    Coming into cycling from being successful in a different activity where people trained as hard during their "off season" as they did for "pre-contest" peak, I have really been baffled watching this and other cycling forums where some competitive cyclist and triathletes seem to be eager to stop cycling during the fall and winter months. You know the ones that get on that whole, "I am going to focus on winter weightlifting so that I can improve my power output" notion. When I was a competitive lifter my off season focused on sports specific training and it was as brutal if not more than peaking for competition. I simply don't get it. I am not talking about those that go into the fall months racing cross and then take a couple weeks before starting winter training. I am talking about those like you mention that take months off and then wonder why they have never progressed beyond a Cat 5 or 4.

    That being said I am so excited going forward this fall and winter. This past year I have focused on my endurance weakness with what RDO and DaveR have suggested to me with a consistent diet of training at 91% of FTP. I think I have just come into another break through with a great ride last weekend showing promise and then some really solid indoor training like last night a solid 40 minutes at 95% of FTP and the last 20 at 91%. I wasn't intending to be at 95%, but it honestly felt like 91%. I am pretty sure I could have done the full 60 minutes at 95%.

    So I am really looking forward to the weather cooling off (heat management indoors and outdoors has been real battle) I should be able to perform even better. My hope is from this point until next spring is to continue doing this same plan of attack, but really hope to improve on training load so that I can do back to back days of HOP. If I had the available time I would like to work my way up to what RDO does and have some 2 hour power. That would really be great. I saw a post from Ric Stern yesterday on FB that simply said, "consistency is king."


    Doing what RDO and Dave suggest with a good diet of sustained time in 91% is great because it does allow one to be consistent. It is not so hard that one needs days off for recovery. I can recover in a day from that load and I am at a low recreational level cyclist with genetics that favor heavy low rep training. Since last spring I have concentrated my training indoors on this structure and even outdoors I picked routes that were as flat as can be. My friends that have concentrated on training in the hills scoffed at the idea, but last weekend I kept them in sight on a short but difficult 2 mile climb. When we stopped at the crest they were stunned to see that I was right there with them with absolutely no "focused hill training" not to mention that I weigh so much for my height. I kept telling them that I felt as if I could improve with a steady diet of training sustainable power on flat ground and indoors. I had faith in what RDO and Dave have told me and now I am really excited about training through this fall and winter. Other than taking a week of vacation I have continued with the same routine and I have never felt burned out mentally or physically.

    I am a recreational cyclist that does not have to worry about when or how I peak so this situation is different for me, but it would seem (being my key wonderment) that someone could do this type of training through the fall and winter and then start throwing in the higher intensity training at "x" amount of weeks from the event and not face burn out. It would also seem that a person would not have to have such an aggressive training load ramp in the spring months trying to get their CTL up, which would in turn prevent overreaching. I think if I were competing in racing I would rather go at a long slow ramp rate rather than a short ( a few months of hitting hard ) intense spring of playing "catch up" to last summer's condition.

    Anyway as an inexperience cyclist trying to progress out of the low 200 FTP I have a lot to learn and a whole lot more observing as I try to twist my genetic position to something it doesn't like. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif
     
  7. 10kman

    10kman New Member

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    I didn't say I take "off", I just don't do focused training with workouts and such. I'm still riding, a lot actually over the winter months, packing in miles. I'm never really off where I'm doing nothing, just off more for mental breaks from endlessly watching data and numbers, and more just riding to enjoy it.

    I don't have confusion as to why I'm not performing at a top level, I know why, I have a job, and a life, and have to deal with every little thing AND try to squeeze in training like we all do. I was trying to get some insight into things I'm doing very wrong, and also what it could potentially take to get me the extra wattage I need, so then I can see what I can work into my life schedule, then see if it's worth it in the end.

    Ironically I had booked this week as an off week, mentally needed a break from things, and also, I've let some chores go undone around my home and there's just no time, so I'm caught up, and actually anxious to get back out on the bike on Monday. I'm antsy, which is good, that's the point of rest time.

    it's also let me do some much needed overhauling of my bikes, you get so busy riding that you don't realize how dirty that handlebar wrap is getting!
     
  8. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    I am sorry that my post sounded like I was talking about you. It was more of a reflection that I have seen in the past with others.
    From what you have posted so far it has impressed me, but then again I am at the recreational level so it doesn't take a lot to impress me. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif
     
  9. 10kman

    10kman New Member

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    LOL, no worries I was just making sure data was accurate, for any new readers of the thread. I'd go nuts if I was off for the winter, plus it let's me catch up on all of the tv shows from 9 months ago while I ride inside. Then I'm THAT guy that comes in to the office and talks about an episode of something that no one cares about anymore.
     
  10. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    I think everybody is a little different in terms of how many weeks or months they need to ramp up to their current maximum potential FTP. I say "current" because one's maximum potential FTP is a moving target since some adaptations are quickly realized and some are cumulative over a very long time. Personally, I begin serious training for a target event about 6 months out. Prior to 6 months out, I do lots of long SST/L4 segments at my off-season baseline which is about 90% of my peak baseline. Beginning about 6 months out, I stay with the long durations but increase the intensity gradually. Beginning about 2 months out, I continue with lots of long duration L4s but I begin to mix in some shorter duration L4s to begin riding at 100%+FTP. So, I'm still doing my segments at only about 90%MMP, but due to the shorter duration it's 100%+FTP. About 1 month out, I simulate the duration and intensity of my target event about once a week. Most of my target events are closer to 2 hours in duration, so I begin to do an intense 2hr ride as close to FTP as I can manage about once a week.
     
  11. lanierb

    lanierb New Member

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    If your event is in July I wouldn't start training seriously until about 4 months before that. Do your fun rides and keep a good base level of fitness but don't go all out in training. You'll burn out if you do (or I would anyway).
     
  12. 10kman

    10kman New Member

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    Small update just to check in -

    I read over this thread periodically just to keep things fresh in my head, and to get some ideas.

    After the race I took off the entire next week from any activity. The next week I pretty much jumped back on the bike ready to go, and didn't do any intensity, just sorta rode, my total hours were maybe around 10 that week.

    The 3rd week back I was on normal routine, and decided that rather than continuing the "just riding along" thing I always do after the climbs, I'd still hit the trainer 1-2x a week, out on the patio, watching squirrels and birds, so I can maintain most of my race fitness, and not start from scratch in the spring.

    Workouts on the trainer have been longer duration than I was previously doing, they've all been 1 x 20 mins at about 300-310 watts. Slightly higher than I should be according to math and tables but it felt comfortable, and since I was only doing 1 of the long intervals, I wasn't too worried. Also, it was still extremely humid here, and sitting still, on a trainer, in that kind of humidity kills me, so to avoid killing myself, that seemed like a good compromise.

    This week the weather finally got "fall ish" and my 20 min interval went very well, wasn't breathing hard or dehydrated afterwards (chugging 2 bottles usually in the heat). So I'm going to throw in another 10-20 min interval after a 5 min rest and see how that goes. Seems to be a staple workout to get your power up, the 2 x 20 min, so I'll use that as a goal. Also, I seem okay sitting and doing the long intervals and can probably do 1 hour FTP sessions to get data over the winter. I think when I get to the point that I'm doing an entire workout at this year's power average, I'm going to drop down the total time of the intervals and increase the power slowly. I will spend some time at this year's pace though so I sorta form a base there, which isn't a bad thing, just not what I want.

    I was off from work today to burn a vacation day and went for an uptempo 3 hour ride. I ride solo, this is actual data off of my Garmin, no shenanigans, no going faster just to get better numbers, I was riding at a comfortable, uptempo pace. Breezy, not too warm but in the sun it was borderline, rolling hills, and my Garmin stops recording data if I dip under 3 MPH, but I was rolling through a lot of traffic here and there. Like I said, real numbers, nothing done to it. I noticed my HR was elevated by about 10 bpm even while just getting going, could be allergies or I'm catching a cold, but I feel fine.

    Thanks everyone for the advice, you've helped greatly. I'll try to keep posting info unless we're all bored with this thread.

    10k
    [​IMG][​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  13. 10kman

    10kman New Member

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    Good morning, I posted a long reply to this thread Friday, however since I'm new, the pictures I guess made the post go to a mod for review (according to the message I got at post time). I had screenshots of my ride data from a solid uptempo ride, was looking for some feedback. Hopefully the post is released soon.
     
  14. Bike N Ski

    Bike N Ski New Member

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    Hope it gets posted also. I enjoy Raps' sleuth work on the data.
     
  15. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    Why don't you just post your questions with and attach the WKO+ file? Anyway, depending on what your questions are I might like to look at the actual file instead of screenshots from the file.
     
  16. 10kman

    10kman New Member

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    It was actually just more of a summary and a gameplan for myself, keeping the discussion going, getting some theories, etc.

    Not sure who the mod is to release, I keep searching and am not finding the person to contact. I don't want to retype the whole thing I will surely leave something out!
     
  17. gudujarlson

    gudujarlson New Member

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    I have gotten the moderator error a couple times and my messages have never appeared. I think it is a bug. I have gotten into the habit of keeping a backup of my posts.
     
  18. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    From your earlier post, it would appear that a recent ride prompted some questions, probably about your current fitness (e.g., FTP, anaerobic power, etc.). I think you can get the feedback you're interested in by posting the ride file that prompted your questions plus a brief summary of your recent training regimen -- e.g., how many hours per week do you train and how do you allocate your training time. As to suggestions going forward, it would be helpful to know what your objectives are.
     
  19. 10kman

    10kman New Member

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    I'll try to touch on some things I was asking about with my Friday post that never made it.

    My ride on Friday was an uptempo ride, usually about a 3 hour loop plus or minus, 61 miles, pretty rolling but one section is on a multi use trail and is flat for about 10 miles or so.

    Anyway I did the 61 mile ride in an avg pace of 20.1 mph, avg power was 265 watts, and my avg heart rate was in the 150's but i don't remember the number. I do recall my heart rate being elevated that day, seemed higher than normal to start, not sure if it was allergy or a cold, but i felt fine (leaning towards allergy as I am fine now and my heart rate is lower).

    I was just posting that to get some numbers out there from a non-race situation.

    As far as a game plan, what I decided I am going to do over the fall/winter months is to actually do workouts on my trainer 2x per week, rather than just riding miles just for fun. I'm still doing it for fun but I'm doing my FTP drills now to keep my core strength up. Right now, I'm doing 20 mins at 310 watts, 5 min rest, 10 mins at 310 watts, then cool down. In two weeks I'll go to 2 x 20 minutes at my 310 wattage. I feel good doing the 310 watts, I'm working but am not out of control. I feel it's helping get my core strength up. So, when I get to the 2 x 20 mins with a 5 min recovery, I wasn't sure if I should do a 30 min rep then a 20 min rep, working to 3 x 20 mins, or if i should go down to 1 x 15-20 mins at my 350 watt goal, sit there until I'm comfortable, and move up my reps and duration at my goal time, rather than staying stagnant with the 310 watt number.

    Of course I have warmup and cooldown time around those intervals, but that's a given.

    I was also wondering if it matters how I'm doing these workouts. I have a track bike I geared for comfortably slow cadence during my interval drills, and I do them on a trainer which does a power calculation. It seems accurate (it's the Kurt model), I have thrown my real power meter bike on the same trainer and my numbers are very very similar at the same heart rates/paces. And, the track bike i say is actually geared slightly high, I have always tried to do my intervals, on the trainer, with the slower cadence simulating an uphill effort.

    Another question I had, was that during my 310 watt intervals, my heart rate sits around maybe 160 bpm once I'm in the groove. My heart rate on the hil climb is 173 avg, 179 peak (this year), i've had it avg 181 before with peaks at 187. That was before my power meter, i trained off of heart rate.

    Should I simulate my heart rate going up to those levels during training or am I just not looking at it anymore and relying on power data only?

    Sorry to be scattered, I was really organized with my post from Friday.

    Thanks all,

    10k
     
  20. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    If your AP for 3hrs was 265W, I would guess that your FTP is definitely in the 300W vicinity. It would be difficult to do more than 90%FTP for 3hrs. Your routine 20min L4 effort at 310W confirms this estimate because 103%FTP for a 20min effort would require an effort similar to what you describe ("working, but not out of control"). BTW, what was your best 60min NP during your 3hr ride?

    As to your fall/winter sessions, what matters is your total volume of L4 efforts. If your goal is a total of 60mins at L4, it doesn't matter whether you do 2 x 30 or 6 x 10 so long as you're doing them at the same intensity (watts). What does matter is what intensity you can maintain with shorter efforts. You could do 6 x 10 at a somewhat higher intensity than 2 x 30 or 3 x 20. When I'm trying to peak my FTP, I do lots of 10min efforts at 100%+FTP whereas early in a build cycle I do lots of 40-80 min efforts at about 90%FTP.

    As to your HR, I'd say to ignore it other than observing how long it takes to reach a resting HR after you stop a hard effort. HR is a poor measure of intensity of effort and has more to do with cadence than power. For example, it's quite common for me to have a difference in HR of 10-15BPM at the same power at two different points of the same ride on the same day. I capture HR data on my rides, but the only thing I use it for is to look at how long it takes for my HR to drop to a resting HR from 90+%MHR. As I become more race-fit, the duration decreases.

    As to when and by how much to increase intensity on your training rides, I think it will be obvious because your current efforts will become too easy. When you do decide to increase your intensity, my suggestion is to ride the first half of an effort at your "old" intensity and the second half at your "new" intensity. When this feels good, then do the entire effort at the "new" intensity.
     
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