I need a 19 watt increase.....



10kman

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I have to look at my data to find the NP, I know on the flat section, I was over 300w at about 22-23 MPH most of the time, but the numbers would help greatly (some of this is why i really wanted the first post to get up here).

I like the idea of using the first half of a rep to stay at my old number and using the second half to be at the new number, it makes more sense and won't be as shocking.

My HR drops in under a minute to a "normal", just riding alone pace, from about any effort. What seems to wreck me more is heat management on a trainer. I get so hot that my heart rate stays high even when I'm trying to go easy, and when I try to go hard, my heart rate skyrockets way too quickly.
 

RapDaddyo

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May 17, 2005
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Originally Posted by 10kman .

I have to look at my data to find the NP, I know on the flat section, I was over 300w at about 22-23 MPH most of the time, but the numbers would help greatly (some of this is why i really wanted the first post to get up here).

I like the idea of using the first half of a rep to stay at my old number and using the second half to be at the new number, it makes more sense and won't be as shocking.

My HR drops in under a minute to a "normal", just riding alone pace, from about any effort. What seems to wreck me more is heat management on a trainer. I get so hot that my heart rate stays high even when I'm trying to go easy, and when I try to go hard, my heart rate skyrockets way too quickly.
A decent fan is essential for trainer rides. I use the Honeywell TurboForce floor fan that I picked up at Target for about $25. I set it on a cheap folding tv tray table. The fan has three positions, but I have never needed to use anything more than the low speed position. A fan should keep your temps down and you should have a similar perceived effort on your trainer. Of course, I am spoiled because I have a dedicated trainer room complete with two trainers, fan, flat screen tv, good stereo speakers, AppleTV and an adjustable height table for coffee, water, etc.
 

10kman

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I'm equally outfitted for the most part, tv on the wall, and I routed an HDMI cable from my PS3 (in living room directly below), up to the tv, so I have a nice DVR option, along with normal tv feeds.

I set my stuff (phone, remote, etc) on a drying rack next to me, which has a towel over it to act as a "shelf".

Also have two trainers in there, not sure why, one is travel one is more stationary (kurt rock and roll stays put, too heavy and bulky to move), and a set of rollers which I rarely use anymore after realizing how they don't do much for me in terms of effort.

The room is my workout room only, and I have clear plastic tarps down under the sweaty area, which is also sitting on a rubber mat, don't want to mess up the floors. One windows behind me, one to my right.

I'll try the fan to get things circulating better. I do try to go outside on my patio as well, just being outside is nice but I still get hot pretty quickly.

Any thoughts on the track bike/fixed gear approach I use? Power is power right, doesn't matter how I put it down?
 

RapDaddyo

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Originally Posted by 10kman .

I'll try the fan to get things circulating better. I do try to go outside on my patio as well, just being outside is nice but I still get hot pretty quickly.

Any thoughts on the track bike/fixed gear approach I use? Power is power right, doesn't matter how I put it down?
Yes, the fan will make a world of difference and should solve your overheating/high HR problem. As to the bike and gearing, it doesn't matter much. If you gear low, you will be making your power more with torque than cadence and vice versa if you gear high. Sometimes I do low cadence efforts (e.g., low 60s) just to get comfortable with making power with torque because sometimes I have to (e.g., a climb steeper than I am geared for) and sometimes I do high cadence efforts (e.g., 110) just to ensure that I am not pushing through at the bottom of the stroke (which would result in a little saddle hop). But, bottom line is that power x duration is what matters.
 

10kman

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Looks like I'm going fan shopping. You point it directly at you right, like a headwind? How far away from it are you?
 

RapDaddyo

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Originally Posted by 10kman .

Looks like I'm going fan shopping. You point it directly at you right, like a headwind? How far away from it are you?
My fan sits on a folding tv tray table, about 27" above the floor. I put it against the wall about 6' from my saddle. It sits off to the side about 3' so as to not interfere with my TV viewing angle, and I aim it at my torso, but the air blows over my whole body. I got mine at Target, but I think they sell them at Sears, K-Mart, etc. I think mine is the Honeywell TurboForce HF-810. Should be less than $40. The nice thing about my fan is that it is quiet.
 

10kman

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Fan found and ordered up, got it for 27 shipped, new. I went with the newer model HT-908, probably the replacement for your model. All reviews said how quiet it is, so that'll be one less thing making me jack the volume up on the tv while I spin. I'm almost excited for winter training inside now knowing this is going to cool me down.

Any experience with calculated power meters like the Kurt model I use? While I'd prefer an actual strain gauge, this is obviously cheaper and is honestly pretty accurate when I've compared my real meter against it. I do scour the net for deals on old powertaps or quarqs, but I usually cheap out.
 

RapDaddyo

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Originally Posted by 10kman .

Fan found and ordered up, got it for 27 shipped, new. I went with the newer model HT-908, probably the replacement for your model. All reviews said how quiet it is, so that'll be one less thing making me jack the volume up on the tv while I spin. I'm almost excited for winter training inside now knowing this is going to cool me down.

Any experience with calculated power meters like the Kurt model I use? While I'd prefer an actual strain gauge, this is obviously cheaper and is honestly pretty accurate when I've compared my real meter against it. I do scour the net for deals on old powertaps or quarqs, but I usually cheap out.
Cool. You'll really notice the difference. The main problem with the meters that derive power from speed is the sensitivity of actual power to rolling resistance. There is not only a significant change in power as a function of speed from tire to tire, but it changes as the tire wears. I have a CompuTrainer and I use a low-torque torque wrench and a custom adapter that I designed and had machined for the tire press-on force adjustment knob. I had my CT set up for my road tire (Michelin Pro Race 2) and one of the local racers came over to do a VO2MAX test on my CT. After he got warmed up, I set the press-on force and checked it with my torque meter. I was amazed at the difference. I don't remember the actual numbers right now, but it was something like 50% more torque and the tires were both inflated to 120psi. So, the best thing to do is to calibrate the KK meter with an actual power meter. You can use your PM and handlebar computer to calibrate, with the tire you normally use and pumped up to your normal road pressure. Then, you can get the trainer warmed up and calibrate your KK meter against the actual PM. But, be aware that your calibration is only good for that tire and it will even change as the tire wears.
 

10kman

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Morning anyone following along still,

Decided to buy myself a present, found a Powertap Pro Track Hub for a great price. Got it, built up a Deep V rim with some 14/15's and 3x pattern, brass nipples, and threw it on the bike.

One mistake I made was going from a 15t cog to a 16t, it's too high now and I'm spinning too much. One of the reasons I think I mentioned using my track bike on the trainer was to get slow cadence drills into my legs, simulating climbing steep grades. So, I have to redo that but that's easy.

I have a few rides on it, all this week, and did a workout just a bit ago to see how numbers compared. I've noticed the power number is a lot more jumpy with the Powertap, since it's measuring and not calculating. The Kurt computer would stay nice and steady, this is up and down a ton so I have to trust the law of averages a bit more. I'm using a 1 second data recording, should I adjust that higher? I never noticed this much movement on my Quarq on my other bike, maybe I'm not focused on numbers this much though.

Anyway, the averages are the same range as the Kurt was telling me, I did a 2 x 20 this morning and rep 1 was 315w, rep 2 was 314w, felt fine during, just spinning too high of a cadence for my taste. I'll figure that out this week when I find a deal on a cog.

2 x 20 workout is good, but I'm going to increase after I get a new cog. Probably do 1 x 30 then a 1 x 20, then go to an hour, then I'll look at numbers and adjust my efforts. Things are going well though.

I had a week off from work 2 weeks ago and aside from doing house stuff like most of us have to do, I got in some great base mileage, just about 500 miles in 9 days, and that was with 2 trainer days for workouts (25 miles or so). Found a road with a taxidermy shop on it, sign was written in finger paints, gotta say I was really hoping to NOT get a flat around there.

More to come with the Powertap setup. I'm happy all of my workouts are on my Garmin now, that was the main goal of the purchase, but decided calculated power vs. actual power is worthwhile too.

-10k
 

RapDaddyo

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Neat. Yes, I think you'll prefer a slightly longer watts rolling average interval than 1s. I use 5s for road and trainer. One of the reasons your PT is "jumpy" compared to the KK computer is that the strain gauge is very sensitive to torque and the watts variable always looks like a saw blade. The second reason is the precession effect of the difference between the data observation interval and your pedal stroke interval. You generate almost all of your power in a short span near 3 o'clock on a clock face (i.e., horizontal position toward the front wheel) with each leg, so the PT is not capturing the same number of downstrokes on each data observation. The SRM is more constant for this reason. Using a 5s rolling average doesn't change the actual data observation frequency, just the handlebar computer display of watts.
 

10kman

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I just was googling around about the interval to use, most suggest the 5 second option. I will try that out and see how she looks. I was actually pretty impressed with the KK's ability to calculate so accurately, nice work there on KK's part. The only thing with calculated power is if you do jumps, the number is always behind your output. At least now it's real-time for me.
 

An old Guy

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Originally Posted by 10kman .
My average power for the race was 331 watts. Average heart rate was 173. I need a 335 watt average. This will put me in a competitive position in the race.

Have no issues with volume if needed, used to put in 800 minute running weeks, can ride back to back century days
don't want to turn cycling totally into competition
You seem to be all over the place in what you want and what you are willing to do.

I would suggest hiring a coach. Perhaps he can help you improve. Be advised that the time record was held by a runner rather than a bicyclist for a long time. I believe the current record is held by some pro bicyclist who took PEDs. Unless you want to go that route, you might be out of luck.

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800 minutes running weeks, back to back centuries. What does that have to do with training for a 1 hour event? If you were doing repeats on this hill for the running and century, that would be different. (7 round trips on that hill would make a good century.)

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If you want to break the hour, you need to make that your goal. Hire a coarch. Train how he tells you. Give up the rest of your life.
 

10kman

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I am not of the mindset that I need to hire a coach to go marginally faster than I already can. I have the ability, just needed some simple advice.

I posted the history of my training so any advice given, would have some background info from where I'm coming from.

I'm not looking to break a record, I am however looking to better my time and not get flat like I have in previous years.

If I can stay around an hour, essentially training for 4 months a year, and now have a solid idea of what to do for an entire year, I don't see a reason I can't achieve my goals other than if I just have a bad day. Training now is going well, I'm cycling hard and easy efforts properly, getting enough rest so that my hard efforts are where they need to be, and am not mentally tiring of anything yet due to the structure.

If I was looking to break a PED user's record, I'd quit my day job, which pays my bills, get some PED's, and then consider a coach. Since I can't do that, and won't race dirty, message boards are my friend.
 

mx416

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10Kman, just ignore An Old Guy, he's a troll and constantly giving out bad advice
 

An old Guy

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Originally Posted by 10kman .

I recently competed in a hill climb which ironically always takes me about an hour to complete. This year was a smidge over an hour.
I am not of the mindset that I need to hire a coach to go marginally faster than I already can. I have the ability, just needed some simple advice.

I just need some good workouts to get me to the next level. That's always the issue, people can get into great shape very easily through internet searching and just doing SOME dedicated training. It's getting to that elite level that's not really published well, not sure if it's a big secret and no one wants to share real numbers when they are pretty decent, but I'm here to help and learn.
It seems you do not have the ability to reach your goal without assistance. I don't think there are many people on this site who can offer much help to those who are above 5w/kg.

Get a coach.
 

10kman

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Aug 19, 2012
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Something that I'm wondering about. Am I concerned about training that red zone level of fitness, where my heart rate is pegged/legs are burning, or am I focusing now on longer, not as intense efforts to get stronger where I need?

I'm thinking about those times where I see my Garmin crying that my bpm is 180+ and my legs are burning on the steep sections of the climbs, and am wondering if I should switch up the long intervals at moderately hard pace, and throw in some under 5 minute intervals, where my wattage is higher, maybe 400-500 depending on time of interval.

Got my new cog installed and am much happier. 2 x 20 @ 320 watts for each rep. Going to increase duration of reps, probably 25's each, steady off, then do 30's. When I'm at the point that I'm doing an hour of interval, I'll do an hour test for some baselines.

Sorry I keep popping this thread up, figure I may as well make it a little reality show with my progress.

10k
 

RapDaddyo

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The question you pose basically gets at the tradeoff between volume and intensity. I find that early in a build cycle I make the most progress with volume. Late in a build cycle I find that I have to shorten the durations and increase my intensity. This concept applies across the board with the exception of neuromuscular power. To be specific as to FTP, early in a build cycle I ride the longest intervals possible (e.g., 40-60min) at the bottom end of the L4 range (e.g., 91%FTP). Late in a build cycle (e.g., beginning about one month before a target event) I am riding 10min duration L4s at 100%+FTP. Why? Because I find that I need to ride at >= 100%FTP to top out my FTP whereas early in a build cycle I make tons of progress at the low end of the intensity range.
 

fluro2au

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Originally Posted by RapDaddyo .

The question you pose basically gets at the tradeoff between volume and intensity. I find that early in a build cycle I make the most progress with volume. Late in a build cycle I find that I have to shorten the durations and increase my intensity. This concept applies across the board with the exception of neuromuscular power. To be specific as to FTP, early in a build cycle I ride the longest intervals possible (e.g., 40-60min) at the bottom end of the L4 range (e.g., 91%FTP). Late in a build cycle (e.g., beginning about one month before a target event) I am riding 10min duration L4s at 100%+FTP. Why? Because I find that I need to ride at >= 100%FTP to top out my FTP whereas early in a build cycle I make tons of progress at the low end of the intensity range.
I like this.

I work my season in three phases.

Phase 1: Build the power
Short intervals and lots of them
Focus on 200-400m hills repeats
2-4min intervals on the flats
Hit these all on the rivet, until you can't hold power anymore...When that happens head home...It could be 10-15 x 200-400 repeats one week, or 20-30 repeats the next week. I just let fatigue and drop off in power determine the length of the session
In summary, structure in a unstructured way

Phase 2: Sustain the power
Once you have your short range power peaking/plateauing, then go long
Take those 2-4 min effort and start building your ability to HOLD power
Build up to 6min, then 8min, 12min, 15min 20min and so on
Don't progress in the length of interval until you can prove to yourself you can hold power for the entire the session...This becomes the structured training.
Total work time for each session is usually around 40-60min max, eg 2x20, 3x15, 1x40-60min, etc...If you can hold power for more than 40-60min than your not working hard enough. 40min is a good starting point, but if you getting close to 60min in broken intervals, than MAN up AND raise the bar.

Phase 3: Utlilise the power
This is my race specific preps.
Look at the course proflle, elevation, winds, corners, rollers, etc..
Start focusing on "meeting the demands of the event" find your strengths and weaknesses and address those relentlessly in training with the POWER YOU HAVE.

Paul
 

10kman

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Aug 19, 2012
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I'm in the sustain the power phase now out of the 3 options above, I'm increasing my length and also my wattage is inching up, and I feel the same, also my heart rate is the same if not a smidge lower. I think the longer intervals are doing wonders right now. Rapdaddyo - when I ran, the last month of a cycle we would switch to short, speed oriented intervals as well and it seemed to help tune that high gear. I was wondering with the unique nature of an hour long hill climb if I should just not bother with it and stay with long power intervals, or if I could gain by switching it up. I may do a fake taper around feb or march and see how I respond, then start again for the summer, as a test. I'm happy with how things are going now and haven't hit a plateau mentally, so I'm going to keep the build going.
 

10kman

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Aug 19, 2012
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I decided I needed to get a better idea of my power levels, so this evening I did a 20 minute effort, pretty much as hard as I could go. It was done on my trainer of course. I made a mistake and went too hard for about the first third of the rep, paid the price so was suffering. It's okay though (wasn't at the time!), I have something to go off of. 15 minute warmup, did the hard 20 minute effort averaging 375 watts and my heart rate averaged 174 bpm. Decided during the 5 minute recovery I should do a second rep since I was recovered in about a minute anyway, so did a normal effort rep and averaged 320 watts, so the same range even after the hard effort. I've been doing 2 x 25 mins now with 5 min recovery, range of wattage is 317-323, it's pretty much clockwork, and my heart rate will be 156-160 depending mainly on how cool I keep myself. So using the 375 watts and taking 95 percent of that, i should be doing my efforts around 356 watts, which seems high. I'm doing my work at 320 watts and that could be too low according to the math. I feel comfortably tired while doing the reps at 320 watts, I figured I was building that core strength while staying there. With my 20 minute number being known, when I do another I will try to start out slower, perhaps at the 375 watt mark, and push harder towards the end, if possible. Having the number gives me a mental target now. Hope the data is informative for some more discussion. Thanks, 10k