Iban Mayo

[italiano]

Oh, come on, now. If doping is to be brought under control, then all aspects of it must be cleaned up.

That includes the sloppy, politically influenced LNDD lab. Information leaks. Outdated software on their equipment. Failure to follow even the simplest procedures. Can't secure their computers. Mistakes that a first year chemistry student would be flunked for.

I don't for one minute think that Landis was framed, or that Armstrong was clean, but what was shown during the Landis trial was a very poorly run operation. With Mayo, their work was cross checked by a Belgian lab, and found to be lacking. I'm shocked and surprised. Maybe he was doing EPO, but if the labs can't even agree when they're supposed to be following the same protocols, it's just another sign of the general disorganization that's killing pro cycling.

Credibility is what cycling needs. And that includes the labs.

LNDD mistakes that a first-year chemistry student would be flunked for? Could you give a real example from chemistry?

I understand and agree with your expectations. WADA labs need to keep their end of the deal. Otoh, too much rhetoric spun by some LNDD “victims” does no good either.

I always liked Mayo. I tended to believe him when he got off the earlier testosterone charge. But his EPO case is a different story. There was always something strange about his roller coaster performances. It’s no proof of anything but that yo-yoing was too consistent with the typical blood doping cycles described by Jaksche.

We don’t know enough yet to blame LNDD. Had LNDD not gone on vacation, they, and not a Belgian lab, would test his B sample. The inconclusive B sample may indicate that WADA is unprepared to analyze EPO at different labs. It may also point to sloppiness at the Belgian lab. May be Mayo sample got infested by the bacteria. Wasn’t it the same Belgian lab associated (in 2003??) with a famous acquittal of some EPO-accused triathlete?

We agree, JohnO, on one thing -- labs aren't perfect. But the overwhelming evidence points in the other direction.

LNDD being hacked by a criminal may indicate that they need some lessons from the Pentagon and it has nothing to do with Mayo.

 

[snood]

LNDD mistakes that a first-year chemistry student would be flunked for? Could you give a real example from chemistry?

I understand and agree with your expectations. WADA labs need to keep their end of the deal. Otoh, too much rhetoric spun by some LNDD “victims” does no good either.

I always liked Mayo. I tended to believe him when he got off the earlier testosterone charge. But his EPO case is a different story. There was always something strange about his roller coaster performances. It’s no proof of anything but that yo-yoing was too consistent with the typical blood doping cycles described by Jaksche.

We don’t know enough yet to blame LNDD. Had LNDD not gone on vacation, they, and not a Belgian lab, would test his B sample. The inconclusive B sample may indicate that WADA is unprepared to analyze EPO at different labs. It may also point to sloppiness at the Belgian lab. May be Mayo sample got infested by the bacteria. Wasn’t it the same Belgian lab associated (in 2003??) with a famous acquittal of some EPO-accused triathlete?

We agree, JohnO, on one thing -- labs aren't perfect. But the overwhelming evidence points in the other direction.

LNDD being hacked by a criminal may indicate that they need some lessons from the Pentagon and it has nothing to do with Mayo.

Mayos doctor was Jesus Losa. He is the one who gave EPO to David Millar. Mayo went awful when Euskaltel fired Losa before 2004 Tour de France.

 

[poulidor]

LNDD has found EPO in Mayo's ****!
From http://sports.voila.fr/fr/cmc/scanner/cyclisme/200751/dopage-mayo-n-y-a-pas-echappe_159627.html

Le feuilleton Iban Mayo a connu un nouveau rebondissement mardi. Contrôlé positif à l'EPO le 24 juillet dernier sur le Tour de France, l'Espagnol avait ensuite vu sa contre-expertise, effectuée à Gand en Belgique du fait de la fermeture au mois d'août du laboratoire de Chatenay-Malabry, déclarée illisible par les experts. Mais la nouvelle expertise de l'échantillon B, réalisée la semaine dernière dans les Hauts-de-Seine, a bien confirmé la présence d'EPO dans les urines du Basque. La Fédération espagnole a désormais les cartes en main pour sanctionner l'ex-coureur Saunier Duval, licencié depuis cette affaire. En cas de clémence de la part de la RFEC, l'Union Cycliste Internationale pourrait faire appel devant le Tribunal arbitral du sport.

 

[Crankyfeet]

LNDD has found EPO in Mayo's ****!
From http://sports.voila.fr/fr/cmc/scanner/cyclisme/200751/dopage-mayo-n-y-a-pas-echappe_159627.html

Let me have a go at a translation of your quote pouli (correct me please if it's erroneous):

The story of Iban Mayo took a new turn Tuesday. After testing positive for EPO on July 24th of the Tour de France, the Spaniard had then seen his counter-evaluation, carried out in Ghent in Belgium because of the closing in August of the laboratory of Chatenay-Malabry, declared illegible by the experts. But the new expert analysis on the B sample, realized last week in the Hauts-de-Seine, confirmed the presence of EPO in the Basque’s urine. The Spanish Cycling Federation (RFEC) now has the evidence in hand to sanction the former Saunier Duval rider, who has been suspended during this affair. In the event of leniency from the RFEC, the UCI could appeal to the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS).

 

[italiano]

A quote from the Frenh Eurosport article:

..Eugenio Bermudez, secretary-general of the Spanish Cycling Federation (RFEC): "If Mayo does not accept the Châtenay-Malabry result there could be a legal conflict."

I don't think Mayo and RFEC will win in TAS if they pressed any further.

 

[poulidor]

The point is PT teams had an agreement to not hire suspected riders. Even if some dirty teams broke this agreement, we can be sure that ASO, MPCC is pushing the plug further so Mayo' career is now finished.

 

[cyclingheroes]

The point is PT teams had an agreement to not hire suspected riders. Even if some dirty teams broke this agreement, we can be sure that ASO, MPCC is pushing the plug further so Mayo' career is now finished.

In principal yes...

But... who says Saunier is targetting for the Tour. They might target the Giro and Vuelta. The Giro had no problem with inviting Basso to the presentation for the 2007 Giro and when Ivan comes back they will let him start at the Giro...

 

[Trev_S]

So in short
LNDD find 'A' sample positive.
Belgium Lab find 'B' sample negative or inconclusive
Australian Lab find 'B' sample negative or inconclusive
UCI don't like the results so lets do it again.
So LNDD find 'B' sample positive.
UCI - ahhh thats better.

in essence I think the correct way to test would be for a 'B & C' sample be tested by 2 independent labs.

That way best best 2 out of 3 wins (or loses ).

 

[kennf]

So in short
LNDD find 'A' sample positive.
Belgium Lab find 'B' sample negative or inconclusive
Australian Lab find 'B' sample negative or inconclusive
UCI don't like the results so lets do it again.
So LNDD find 'B' sample positive.
UCI - ahhh thats better.

in essence I think the correct way to test would be for a 'B & C' sample be tested by 2 independent labs.

That way best best 2 out of 3 wins (or loses ).

I think it's more like:

LNDD finds A sample positive
Belgian lab test has inconclusive result (not negative or positive)
Australian agrees Belgian test is inconclusive, but does not perform a test
LNDD finds B sample positive.

Mayo cries out about his human rights.

 

[cyclingheroes]

I think it's more like:

LNDD finds A sample positive
Belgian lab test has inconclusive result (not negative or positive)
Australian agrees Belgian test is inconclusive, but does not perform a test
LNDD finds B sample positive.

Mayo cries out about his human rights.

And the UCI does not care about their own rules...

 

[limerickman]

And the UCI does not care about their own rules...

According to todays Guardian newspaper, the UCI have given the Spanish Federation until 31st December to impose a ban on Mayo.

 

[JohnO]

Exactly. Mayo's career is done, and it was finished off by a questionable sequence of events. The odds that he was doping are pretty good, but in this case, the cure is as bad as the disease.

Put it this way - if the Belgian lab had confirmed the positive, would the UCI have still demanded LNDD also test the B sample?

True, it would be more accurate to have A and B samples tested at different labs, but that would be admitting that the system is flawed. And there's nothing wrong with cycling today, right? They fixed the problem in 07. They were so bent on being thorough, that they also fixed it in 06. And 04. And in 98. Have I missed any years?

 

[cyclingheroes]

According to todays Guardian newspaper, the UCI have given the Spanish Federation until 31st December to impose a ban on Mayo.

No the have until Deecember 31 to open a case. The Spanish federation saysthey have the problem that the UCI acted against heir own rules by asking for a second examination of the B sample.

Interesting point: Ghent changed their method after the Bleke case. Bleke proved that the WADA method can produce false positives. After that Ghent changed their method. The French didn't.

 

[limerickman]

No the have until Deecember 31 to open a case. The Spanish federation saysthey have the problem that the UCI acted against heir own rules by asking for a second examination of the B sample.

Interesting point: Ghent changed their method after the Bleke case. Bleke proved that the WADA method can produce false positives. After that Ghent changed their method. The French didn't.

Thanks for the correction - you're correct, the Guardian reports that they have until 31/12 to open the case.

The case itself appears to be messy, at best.

 

[Bro Deal]

Exactly. Mayo's career is done, and it was finished off by a questionable sequence of events. The odds that he was doping are pretty good, but in this case, the cure is as bad as the disease.

Put it this way - if the Belgian lab had confirmed the positive, would the UCI have still demanded LNDD also test the B sample?

True, it would be more accurate to have A and B samples tested at different labs, but that would be admitting that the system is flawed. And there's nothing wrong with cycling today, right? They fixed the problem in 07. They were so bent on being thorough, that they also fixed it in 06. And 04. And in 98. Have I missed any years?

I would have no problem letting Mayo walk on this, but let's not pretend that he is an innocent man who has had his rights trampled.

 

[cyclingheroes]

I think they should Mayo walk. Although I do understand that people won't like it. The UCI should introduce a C sample for future cases but the b sample should be examined from a second lab and a third lab should examin the C sample. They normal prcedure would still be a and b sample, but a c sample if there are questions like the inconclusive b sample of Mayo. Its not good to let the b sample examin again by the same lab who did the a sample.

Also... why should the second examination of the French lab be more trusty than the examination in Ghent.

Thanks for the correction - you're correct, the Guardian reports that they have until 31/12 to open the case.

The case itself appears to be messy, at best.

 

[thunder]

I think they should Mayo walk. Although I do understand that people won't like it. The UCI should introduce a C sample for future cases but the b sample should be examined from a second lab and a third lab should examin the C sample. They normal prcedure would still be a and b sample, but a c sample if there are questions like the inconclusive b sample of Mayo. Its not good to let the b sample examin again by the same lab who did the a sample.

Also... why should the second examination of the French lab be more trusty than the examination in Ghent.

let him go.

But have no pretense cycling is clean. So why bother with testing. Testing is just a chirade. PR chirade.

 

[cyclingheroes]

let him go.

But have no pretense cycling is clean. So why bother with testing. Testing is just a chirade. PR chirade.

Its not that I think Mayo is clean (actually I think he isn't...now what a surprise ), its about you have to have a transparent procedure. The way the UCI is handling this case isn't very trustworthy...

 

[thunder]

Its not that I think Mayo is clean (actually I think he isn't...now what a surprise ), its about you have to have a transparent procedure. The way the UCI is handling this case isn't very trustworthy...

I agree, I was ambiguous with my reply.

did not mean to reply to you, just an ongoing dialogue.

Mostly, I defer to the great Heroes on all things cycling, in fact, I will put him up again your avatar at the next UCI meeting, we just need someone to second Heroes.

The UCI has to be transparent. No good the OP riders getting screwed in limbo, they either are banned or they ride. Just test them every day to penalise them.

Why should Hamilton, and a few OP riders suffer, when Contador wins the Tour. And Menchov wins Vuelta, and T Dekker is nowhere to be found on those lists.

Come on, this is not fair.

<this was not an overt reply to Heroes, just a continuing dialogue>

 

[cyclingheroes]

Good post, the UCI is not the solution for the current crisis. They are part of the problem. Maybe even more...

The way they handle things belong in a Monthy Python film. John Cleese & co would come to this kind of solutions, not to solve problems but to make people laugh.

I agree, I was ambiguous with my reply.

did not mean to reply to you, just an ongoing dialogue.

Mostly, I defer to the great Heroes on all things cycling, in fact, I will put him up again your avatar at the next UCI meeting, we just need someone to second Heroes.

The UCI has to be transparent. No good the OP riders getting screwed in limbo, they either are banned or they ride. Just test them every day to penalise them.

Why should Hamilton, and a few OP riders suffer, when Contador wins the Tour. And Menchov wins Vuelta, and T Dekker is nowhere to be found on those lists.

Come on, this is not fair.

<this was not an overt reply to Heroes, just a continuing dialogue>