Iban Mayo

[TheDarkLord]

I dont think riders want to dope, if they know everyone else is doping. I think most dope, not because of advantage, but because of neutralising disadvantage. If that is truly the case, then you will get a majority constituency supporting anti-doping measures. It will only be those riders that know their performances are underpinned by their doping programs who should protest.

Who wants to spend 10 thousand Euros a year, on the cheapest plan. Who wants to spend 80 thousand a year. Who wants juniors doping. I dont think anyone wants them doping. Time for a solution folks.

I am not sure I agree with this though. Was there not some study where athletes were interviewed on whether they would take some drug if it guaranteed a gold medal in Olympics even if it meant major long term health problems, and a significant number answered that they would take that drug? I agree that many do dope because everyone else does, but there will also be riders who dope just to get the yellow jersey.

 

[Crankyfeet]

I am not sure I agree with this though. Was there not some study where athletes were interviewed on whether they would take some drug if it guaranteed a gold medal in Olympics even if it meant major long term health problems, and a significant number answered that they would take that drug? I agree that many do dope because everyone else does, but there will also be riders who dope just to get the yellow jersey.

I used that same survey earlier on to explain the dangers of doping...but I think thunder's point was that the environment of doping is so pervasive in cycling, that pros are mostly doping so that they are not at a disadvantage. Though its possible in the future...I don't think the scenario you illustrated above, presents itself currently in cycling.

A similar analogy would be corporate technology. Most companies spend on IT to stay with the competition, not usually to gain an advantage. Mainly because IT and developments in technology are so pervasive in the marketplace. This is similar to doping technology and its adoption in cycling.

 

[TheDarkLord]

I used that same survey earlier on to explain the dangers of doping...but I think thunder's point was that the environment of doping is so pervasive in cycling, that pros are mostly doping so that they are not at a disadvantage. Though its possible in the future...I don't think the scenario you illustrated above, presents itself currently in cycling.

A similar analogy would be corporate technology. Most companies spend on IT to stay with the competition, not usually to gain an advantage. Mainly because IT and developments in technology are so pervasive in the marketplace. This is similar to doping technology and its adoption in cycling.

What I wonder is whether cycling is really that different from other sports in terms of doping. Didn't Victor Conte estimate that about 50% of the athletes (or was it just the winners?) in the Sydney Olympics were doped? I think it is just that cycling is one sport where doping is in the spotlight rather than in the sidelines. I do understand thunder's point - I was just saying that even if most pros don't dope, it is possible that some will still dope (irrespective of health consequences for example) purely for fame and glory.

 

[thunder]

What I wonder is whether cycling is really that different from other sports in terms of doping. Didn't Victor Conte estimate that about 50% of the athletes (or was it just the winners?) in the Sydney Olympics were doped? I think it is just that cycling is one sport where doping is in the spotlight rather than in the sidelines. I do understand thunder's point - I was just saying that even if most pros don't dope, it is possible that some will still dope (irrespective of health consequences for example) purely for fame and glory.

I think in T&F, especially male T&F it is nearly as rife, at the Olympic final level. Olympic finals, would not find many clean I would think.

The only sport I think that would eclipse cycling is weightlifting.

NFL would be not far behind cycling. But many positions not on line of scrimmage, it might not be necessary. Yes, aiding, but not necessary. I doubt many linebackers or linesmen are clean.

MLB, lag a little behind NFL, but not by much.

NHL and NBA, further behind, but not clean.

Spanish soccer, doped thru the eyeballs like NFL. Spanish tennis, a bit further behind, but you can bet Nadal was on Fuentes list.

Agentinean tennis, like the best nightclubs in Miami, those guys do more amphetamines than a small nation.

Track cycling. See road cycling.

Swimming, probably on a level about where NHL, NBA is. Cleaner than most other sports mentioned, but still dirty. Olympic finals, very dirty.

 

[italiano]

I think in T&F, especially male T&F it is nearly as rife, at the Olympic final level. Olympic finals, would not find many clean I would think.

The only sport I think that would eclipse cycling is weightlifting.

NFL would be not far behind cycling. But many positions not on line of scrimmage, it might not be necessary. Yes, aiding, but not necessary. I doubt many linebackers or linesmen are clean.

MLB, lag a little behind NFL, but not by much.

NHL and NBA, further behind, but not clean.

Spanish soccer, doped thru the eyeballs like NFL. Spanish tennis, a bit further behind, but you can bet Nadal was on Fuentes list.

Agentinean tennis, like the best nightclubs in Miami, those guys do more amphetamines than a small nation.

Track cycling. See road cycling.

Swimming, probably on a level about where NHL, NBA is. Cleaner than most other sports mentioned, but still dirty. Olympic finals, very dirty.

Athletics and cross country skiing are at least as bad as bici.

I find it very interesting that historical mortality among pro cyclists seems higher than in other sports and general popolazion. May be drugs, may be hard life, may be bici sport is too difficult. Scores of champones did not live to their 60s.

 

[thunder]

Athletics and cross country skiing are at least as bad as bici.

I find it very interesting that historical mortality among pro cyclists seems higher than in other sports and general popolazion. May be drugs, may be hard life, may be bici sport is too difficult. Scores of champones did not live to their 60s.

yeah, but different demands.

apart from x-country skiing, cycling is the only sport, which needs kms after kms, and allows the body to haul itself because it is non-impact.

marathon runners cannot do 6 hours per day, for 10 years.

x-country skiiers do not have GT's.

So, this means the sport has unique demands, and different to what anyother sport is.

Large hearts in retirement and sedentary lifestyles, or even, merely relatively inactive compared to 1000 mile weeks, say they only log 100 miles a week, that is sedentary for a pro. Large hearts are a danger problem.

 

[confusedfan]

x-country skiiers do not have GT's.

Well, they're trying to start something like a GT - think the first time was last year, but it's 8 days of racing in 10 days total so more like a non-GT stage race ...

 

[thunder]

Well, they're trying to start something like a GT - think the first time was last year, but it's 8 days of racing in 10 days total so more like a non-GT stage race ...

I thought a doctor was gonna correct me re:large hearts. Then I saw it was only "confused fan" replying.

 

[Crankyfeet]

I thought a doctor was gonna correct me re:large hearts. Then I saw it was only "confused fan" replying.

Yeah...what is exactly the theory or empirical evidence behind large hearts being a problem in more sedentary old age, thunder?

I don't need to be thinking while I'm doing miles and keeping fit that I am making my heart larger and shortening my life.

Is it just a problem for those that have taken supplemental steroids through their athletic life?

 

[thunder]

Yeah...what is exactly the theory or empirical evidence behind large hearts being a problem in more sedentary old age, thunder?

I don't need to be thinking while I'm doing miles and keeping fit that I am making my heart larger and shortening my life.

Is it just a problem for those that have taken supplemental steroids through their athletic life?

I believe a larger heart, needs considerably more strength (pro rata) to push a blood one pump volume around the body.

The heart is made and developed (hypertrophied) via the training regimen of a professional athlete, and thus, when the regimen recedes, the heart loses strength, but the atrophy is less in volume, and more in strength.

So the volume remains (or recedes a little) but strength reduces, and thus is taxes the heart a great deal more than the average person.

Thus most advice is to not exercise over 3 hours in length. High intensity aerobic exercise.

I am just going off memory here, perhaps the confused fan might weigh in later.

 

[9.8mps2]

To oversimplify a bit, the hypertrophy resulting from either aerobic or anaerobic training are non pathologic and reversible . Anaerobic excercise may allow ventricular remodeling and result in stiff ventricles . But by far ,most pathologic hypertrophy is that resulting from chronic hypertension . The greatest prevention for hypertension is excercise .
Perhaps these riders you mention were predisposed to hypertension , and in the post racing sedentary change it manifested itself.
Maybe they suffered from coronary artery disease / infarctions at a youngish age . MI's are bad news for 50 ish year olds as they lack the collateral arterial developement found in older bulls.
It is interesting . Do you have any morbidity or mortality figures on these ex champs ? Did heart failure or coronary artery disease kill them ? cancer ? Drunken automobile mishaps ? Jealous husbands ?

 

[thunder]

To oversimplify a bit, the hypertrophy resulting from either aerobic or anaerobic training are non pathologic and reversible . Anaerobic excercise may allow ventricular remodeling and result in stiff ventricles . But by far ,most pathologic hypertrophy is that resulting from chronic hypertension . The greatest prevention for hypertension is excercise .
Perhaps these riders you mention were predisposed to hypertension , and in the post racing sedentary change it manifested itself.
Maybe they suffered from coronary artery disease / infarctions at a youngish age . MI's are bad news for 50 ish year olds as they lack the collateral arterial developement found in older bulls.
It is interesting . Do you have any morbidity or mortality figures on these ex champs ? Did heart failure or coronary artery disease kill them ? cancer ? Drunken automobile mishaps ? Jealous husbands ?

thanks for the contribution. I should have qualified my lay perspective, and it was anecdotal from reading. And I surmised on such anecdotes. It maybe it just exacerbates pre-disposed pathologies.

 

[Crankyfeet]

Perhaps these riders you mention were predisposed to hypertension , and in the post racing sedentary change it manifested itself.
Maybe they suffered from coronary artery disease / infarctions at a youngish age

I think his point was that the ex-pro cyclists had a higher incidence of premature death relating to heart problems compared to the normal population. The pathologies and hypertension you mentioned would be consistent across the whole population...not a higher incidence in cyclists...unless I'm missing something??

 

[9.8mps2]

Athletics and cross country skiing are at least as bad as bici.

I find it very interesting that historical mortality among pro cyclists seems higher than in other sports and general popolazion. May be drugs, may be hard life, may be bici sport is too difficult. Scores of champones did not live to their 60s.

But his observation doesn't tie to any heart related issues , just general mortality.
I'm gonna spend another night in this Holiday Inn Express and see what I can come up with ...

 

[italiano]

But his observation doesn't tie to any heart related issues , just general mortality.
I'm gonna spend another night in this Holiday Inn Express and see what I can come up with ...

Yeah, I was meaning general mortality… high premature mortality in bici from all reasons: heart patologia, blood pressure, doping, race accidents, hard GT racing… all reasons. I remember a friend sent me email. He read a book about 100 best cyclist of all times. If my altzhimeric memory correct, he counted more than 30% died before 60. I should look for this book. They say to us elite sport is healthy. I memorize reading that scientist found elite sportive people lived longer than general Italian population. Why ciclisti and not cross country sciers dieing so young?

 

[limerickman]

bumped

 

[JohnO]

Yeah, I was meaning general mortality… high premature mortality in bici from all reasons: heart patologia, blood pressure, doping, race accidents, hard GT racing… all reasons. I remember a friend sent me email. He read a book about 100 best cyclist of all times. If my altzhimeric memory correct, he counted more than 30% died before 60. I should look for this book. They say to us elite sport is healthy. I memorize reading that scientist found elite sportive people lived longer than general Italian population. Why ciclisti and not cross country sciers dieing so young?

Interesting subject... I ran a quick spot check on TDF winners for the last 50 years. Most of them are still alive. Anquetil died from stomach cancer, Ocana committed suicide. Charly Gaul died recently at age 72 from a pulmonary embolism. Roger Walkowiak is still alive at age 80, as is Bahamontes at 79. Granted, this doesn't cover all cyclists, but it does cover some of the best. Doesn't appear to be any chronic early death going on there.

Of course, most of them were riding in the pre-biotech drug days, too. It remains to be seen what happens when steroid and HGH fueled bodies start paying the price for artificial acceleration.

 

[limerickman]

bumped

 

[cyclingheroes]

Interesting subject... I ran a quick spot check on TDF winners for the last 50 years. Most of them are still alive. Anquetil died from stomach cancer, Ocana committed suicide. Charly Gaul died recently at age 72 from a pulmonary embolism. Roger Walkowiak is still alive at age 80, as is Bahamontes at 79. Granted, this doesn't cover all cyclists, but it does cover some of the best. Doesn't appear to be any chronic early death going on there.

Of course, most of them were riding in the pre-biotech drug days, too. It remains to be seen what happens when steroid and HGH fueled bodies start paying the price for artificial acceleration.

I Just did an interview with Jan Janssen (TdF winner 1968), he is 67 and still riding his bike...

 

[TheDarkLord]

I Just did an interview with Jan Janssen (TdF winner 1968), he is 67 and still riding his bike...

I don't know the history of doping, but where people doping the way they are doing now in the 1960s? Then, there is also the issue of how some people are apparently immune to the stuff. Once a while, you hear about some person who has lived to a ripe old age without any major medical problems in spite of smoking for a very long time, while on average, smoking has been shown to cause various diseases.