iBike Pro - New PM
- Thread starter RapDaddyo
- Start date
kyzyl2 said:
A device that measures strain will always be more accurate than one that tries to calculate backwards from altitude, acceleration, speed...whatever. I doubt any of the parameters the iPod measures are more accurate than either the PT or SRM and that error is cumulative.
Neither the PT or SRM make any assumptions about the environment.
The iBike might be somewhat popular among recreational riders who seem to love to collect unuseful data like average speed and gradient but I doubt it will be used for serious training.
You hit the nail right on the head, RDO. This device will be within reach of far more cyclists than existing PMs; for those cyclists, they'll be going from having no information about power at all, to having some information. I think that information, coupled with enough understanding of the technology's limitations, could be pretty useful. If you want to roughly measure your race performances, count kilocalories, and perform your intervals in a more targeted way, this device could be good enough for all practical purposes.RapDaddyo said:
Actually, it's probably mis-categorized as a "power meter." It is actually an "imputed power meter." Power meters directly measure intensity of effort. Imputed power meters measure the result of intensity of effort and impute power. I think it's a different class of device and should be evaluated in an absolute sense rather than in a comparative sense.kmavm said:
Certainly any comparison needs to compare price as well as performance in order to make a determination of value. FWIW, the PowerTap Pro is closer in price to the iBike than it is to the SRM, but that never stopped anyone from trying to compare the PT to the SRM. From what I've seen iBike's manufacturers are pressing comparisons with SRM harder than anyone, because they know they'll win a value comparison if they can survive or minimize scrutiny on performance. You don't see them trying to compare iBike with the HAC4 or Polar Power setups, right? This consumer comparison already rated the Polar higher than the PT or SRM on value: http://www.biketechreview.com/archive/pm_review.htm so maybe the Polar unit should be the existing standard "value" unit.
Personally, I'd think the inability to use the iBike indoors would present a 'non-starter' for many serious/competitive cyclists, and I'm not sure how much benefit there is for a 'value' PM over a HRM for club/recreational cyclists. Seems like more of a niche product for that reason.
Personally, I'd think the inability to use the iBike indoors would present a 'non-starter' for many serious/competitive cyclists, and I'm not sure how much benefit there is for a 'value' PM over a HRM for club/recreational cyclists. Seems like more of a niche product for that reason.
Rocket^ said:
Here's why you should care:
1) while accuracy and precision are theoretically different things, in actual practice the two are often closely linked. That is, design/material choices tend to influence both, meaning that an instrument that isn't accurate often isn't precise, and vice-versa.
2) while precision is important when comparing yourself to yourself as measured using the same device, accuracy is what matters when, e.g., comparing yourself to others (such as when using the power profiling tables) or when performing any sort of modeling (e.g., back-calculating your CdA from field tests).
3) no powermeter will last forever, which means that some day you will be forced to combine/compare data from more than one such device. Unless both are accurate as well as precise, you won't know whether you've really gotten better (or worse) over time, or whether any such trend is simply due to use of different instruments.
Andy, I'd put an asterisk on that statement which restricts it's applicability to devices where the measured inputs are somehow inherently controlled by the construction of the device. SRM and PowerTaps are good examples of this, as eliminating twisting, bending, stretching, etc. improves both the accuracy and precision since everything is constrained in the construction of the device.acoggan said:
The issue I have with that statement as-is is that for devices which do a lot of computations from unconstrained inputs, the quality of the input, rather than the construction of the device, influences the precision of the output. Accuracy in those devices can be improved through averaging and offsets, but that doesn't help the precision. In those devices, the random variability of the input (wind-speed pickups, for example) may produce horrible precision in a device, and yet average out over a ride to generate seemingly reasonable accuracy.
The only reason I pick this nit is because my gut feel is that the device in question falls into the latter category.
iBike Pro Review. {Apologies that this is posted on multiple threads, wasn't sure which one to use.}
I have an iBike and a Powertap and I have been comparing them side by side and here are the conclusions:
The iBike is NOT useful for training it is strictly a gadget and here is why:
The iBike is not at all accurate real time. MOST OF THE TIME the iBike is significantly (often 50-100 Watts) high or low. If you have ever (seriously) trained to power then you know that just a few watts (let's say 10% of your max hour of power; 25-50 Watts unless you are Lance Armstrong prior to 2006 (Sorry Lance)) high or low makes a HUGE difference when you are trying to hold a set wattage for a while; and with this much error, you will have a horrible workout with the iBike. Sure, the marketing folks at iBike like to point to average watts and say that it is accurate but this is not relevant to real time training on the bike. The iBike is USELESS as a real time wattage training tool. There are also several other serious problems for example:
1) What about WINTER time ??? YOU CAN'T USE THE iBIKE INDOORS ! You will have to buy 2 power meters anyhow so what good is it ?
2) The iBike is completely inaccurate on the slightest rough road.
3) Turns. The iBike is flat out wrong when going through turns.
4) Drafting. Yes, the marketing team at iBike want you to think that it is more accurate when in bigger packs. BS ! I have tried it. It is WRONG WRONG WRONG in the draft.
Conclusion. If:
1) You just like gadgets and don't care if they really work.
2) You never turn.
3) You never ride in the draft.
4) You don't mind a significantly wrong watts readout while you are training.
5) You are a sucker and believe all of the BS that iBike and those that stand to benefit from iBike sales tell you.
Then go buy an iBike -- There are plenty of them for sale on eBay from the people who have gotten suckered into buying one and can't get a refund.
Otherwise, if you are smart, go buy a PowerTap, Ergomo, SRM etc...
I have an iBike and a Powertap and I have been comparing them side by side and here are the conclusions:
The iBike is NOT useful for training it is strictly a gadget and here is why:
The iBike is not at all accurate real time. MOST OF THE TIME the iBike is significantly (often 50-100 Watts) high or low. If you have ever (seriously) trained to power then you know that just a few watts (let's say 10% of your max hour of power; 25-50 Watts unless you are Lance Armstrong prior to 2006 (Sorry Lance)) high or low makes a HUGE difference when you are trying to hold a set wattage for a while; and with this much error, you will have a horrible workout with the iBike. Sure, the marketing folks at iBike like to point to average watts and say that it is accurate but this is not relevant to real time training on the bike. The iBike is USELESS as a real time wattage training tool. There are also several other serious problems for example:
1) What about WINTER time ??? YOU CAN'T USE THE iBIKE INDOORS ! You will have to buy 2 power meters anyhow so what good is it ?
2) The iBike is completely inaccurate on the slightest rough road.
3) Turns. The iBike is flat out wrong when going through turns.
4) Drafting. Yes, the marketing team at iBike want you to think that it is more accurate when in bigger packs. BS ! I have tried it. It is WRONG WRONG WRONG in the draft.
Conclusion. If:
1) You just like gadgets and don't care if they really work.
2) You never turn.
3) You never ride in the draft.
4) You don't mind a significantly wrong watts readout while you are training.
5) You are a sucker and believe all of the BS that iBike and those that stand to benefit from iBike sales tell you.
Then go buy an iBike -- There are plenty of them for sale on eBay from the people who have gotten suckered into buying one and can't get a refund.
Otherwise, if you are smart, go buy a PowerTap, Ergomo, SRM etc...
Sorry to hear you're not happy with your iBike. I suppose there isn't a product anywhere that pleases 100% of the people 100% of the time.VeloPower said:
Fortunately, there are many, many, many other iBike owners, who also own other power meters, who also have done side-by-side testing, and who have come to exactly the opposite conclusions you have reached. Comparative data is posted on our website https://www.ibikesports.com/documen...s_the_iBike.pdf for all to see.
You state that the iBike is completely inaccurate on the slightest rough road. That can mean only one thing: you haven't installed the free firmware update that fixes the rough road problem and improves the watts accuracy of the iBike. You should give it a try; I think many of your concerns would be diminished.
Yet, even with this latest firmware you're certainly correct that the iBike has limitations:
1) At present the iBike doesn't work on an indoor trainer; we've never said otherwise. It's odd that you criticize the iBike for this limitation yet you own one yourself.
2) We state quite explicitly in the instruction manual that the iBike isn't accurate in sharp turns (such as turning at street intersections). If it's critical for you to know with highest accuracy how many watts you're expending while making a left or right turn then the iBike isn't for you.
3) Drafting: there are forum postings that report good accuracy in large packs and lesser accuracy in smaller packs. Do you have additional data? If so please share the data, not just the conclusion.
I checked ebay this morning. There is one man selling his iBike (I know him, he is a very nice guy) and there is one online retailer. Doesn't sound to me as if the masses have decided they've been suckered...
Refunds? If you're this unhappy return your iBike to us and we'll give you a refund. Out of the thousands of units we've sold only two people have asked for refunds. You can be number three.
John Hamann
Well hello Mr. Hamann. It appears that you wish to put me into the category of an unhappy customer so that it will diminish the value of my review. I assure you that my only goal was to put out an objective review on your product. I don't require a refund; thanks anyway. You have done a great job of spin doctoring and sugar coating all of the significant problems with your product and I felt that it was time that someone did an objective unbiased review.jhamann said:
1) The graphs on the link you gave:
https://www.ibikesports.com/documents/Which_is_the_iBike.pdf
all make the point very well about how the iBike is constently high or low a significant amount while riding the bicycle and thus make it useless as a real time training tool. Thank you for helping to make that point. In addition to the graphs it is even more of a glaring problem when actually riding the bicycle with the two power meters side by side and trying to hold a constant wattage that it becomes very apparent that the iBike drifts high and low making it worthless for serious training.
2) Turns. You are trying to SPIN DOCTOR turns to sound better than they really are by saying that it doesn't work in SHARP turns. Well that's BS. During my testing, I found that the iBike was wrong in pretty much every turn on my training course, most of which I would not consider to be SHARP.
3) Drafting. You are trying to SPIN DOCTOR that too. I tried the iBike in numerous drafting conditions and it is just plain wrong. My guess is that those posting in the forums that you refer to (if they even exist) did not have two power meters side by side for comparison. I did and the fact is that the iBike is not accurate in the draft.
4) Ebay. Go to www.ebay.com. Search for iBike Pro. Make sure and check the box entitled "Completed Listings". From Nov 19 to Nov 30 (11 days) there have been 6 iBikes for sale. That's one every two days on average. Doesn't look too good for a product with small volumes.
In conclusion, my review is based on putting the iBike and PT side by side in real life training, racing riding situations. The folks at iBike are great at smoke and mirrors and spin doctoring and they want people to think their product is much better than it really is. I hope this review helps to debunk some of the iBike myths. So if you want a gadget, then go buy an iBike -- there are probably some people who are happy with the iBike as a gadget. If you are a serious athlete, get something else...
VeloPower said:
So, at this point, does it really matter if VeloComp is blowing smoke or not? I mean, holy cow, I would buy one just to spite Velopower here, he sounds like a first class A#*hole, regardless of if he is right ot not! I hope I never bump into you out on the road "Velopower," that bad karma you keep spewing forth on a small start-up company is going to come back and bite you, and I feel sorry for anyone who has to ride in your negative world. Your posts of hate and anger have only made me want to push the iBike more, and since I work with several major race teams, I think I'll start suggesting they try them out, courtesy of your wonderful refferal here......I doubt Powertap and SRM appreciate your low class white trash bantering, regardless of it's accuracy. If the iBike is week, it will become visible with time. It doesnt need your anger to push it along, but then again, neither does the cycling community or this forum. Take your classless anger somewhere else....
The speculation on dailypeloton.com was that "VeloPower" was a negative campaign trying to drive VeloComp's value down so as to buy the company. Who knows, but all the anonymous spam posts sure are fishy. The guy/group even launched a fake website and bought google adwords. At this point, this "disgruntled user" has spent 10x as much trying to discredit the iBike as he spent on the iBike in the first place (if he ever had one, that is).
Hmmm, I just bought a PT SL on Ebay (hub only--I have to lace a wheel), NIB, for under $600.00. I've seen pros going for less than that. That's getting pretty close to I-bike territory.RapDaddyo said:
With that much said, I think this thing has way more potential than some other one-legged measuring devices.
donrhummy said:
Wow, I haven't visited this forum in months, but I used to, and this thread is about that old. Here're some charts and analysis I did of my iBike and PT data, if you're curious: http://biketechreview.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2232&start=0#p22146 .
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