Ice axe *or* crampons?

In message <[email hidden]>

Alan Dicey said:

Peter Clinch said:

Pretty much the same you do with an axe, and I speak from personal
experience of having done it a couple of times. Does it work as well?
No. Does it work well enough? that depends on the situation, but it
did for me... the sort of places you're using a pole for support in
preference to an ice axe it ought to.
Why wasn't I carrying an axe in my hands? Because I was skiing!

I will take your word for it, but I'd still like to know how you use a
pole to self-arrest, and you can't get away with saying "pretty much the
same as you do with an axe" because they are completely different in
shape, size and rigidity. And your practiced ice-axe arrests are going
to be no use at all, you need to practice the ski-pole arrest, with
crampon complications.

If you spend a lot of time skiing you can get to practice using a pole
for arrest. You can also practice with the added complications of two
skis still attached, or one ski still attached, or both skis detached!

Quoted message said:

The pole is surely attached to your wrist at the top with a strap (or
do ski-pole have sliding straps?), making it impossible to get hold
of the stick near the point, which is the only way I can see you
stopping a slide.

That is an interesting point. Very often when skiing, particularly
ski-touring you don't use the straps. When traversing a slope in
walking mode you frequently have to hold one pole lower down on the
shaft than the other, and when you change direction you need to change
the grip on each pole. It's similar to changing your ice axe between
hands. If you have your wrists through the loops it just slows you down
and makes this adjustment of grip difficult, for both use of pole (and
similarly for an axe). Secondly in a situation where you might fall or
be avalanched it is often a better option to be able to let go of your
pole(s) (and also in some circumstances your axe) rather than have them
flailing around at the ends of your arms, possibly causing more injury,
or assisting in dragging you deeper into the avalanche.

The technique for using a pole for arrest, assuming you haven't got your
wrist loops on, is to discard one of the two poles and then to work your
hands down the shaft of the other until you can apply pressure nearer
the tip, forcing it into the snow.

Quoted message said:

The poster is proposing to go where crampons are needed with only
poles as backup. I can only assume that he is planning never to fall,
or never to go where a fall will put him in danger of sliding over a
drop. The former case is sheer madness, so he must be talking of
terrain that is benign, gentle slopes or none at all and masses of
room to stop with no danger of a cliff spoiling your day. Not the
sort of terrain I have ever come across on winter walks, hence my
choice of axe always, crampons sometimes.

What about winter walks in terrain such as you might encounter in the
Yorkshire dales, or the Peak District, or the South Downs? There are
also plenty of walks within Wales, the Lake District and Scotland where
you might encounter similar terrain. Certainly I can think of lots of
walking terrain in the Alps and the Jurra that offers similar winter
walking potential. In such circumstances as I've pointed out before,
poles, snow-shoes (and perhaps crampons), together with a snow shovel,
probe and transceiver, are a better first choice than an axe.

Mike
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
<\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
"> || _`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

In message <[email hidden]>

Alan Dicey said:

Tom Crispin said:

Alan Dicey said:

Please tell us all how you can self-arrest with a walking pole.

If you tell me where a claim to be able do so was made first.

It is implied in your statement that you would set out on a winter walk
with crampons and poles and no ice-axe. You are therefore planning to
go where crampons are necessary. To me that means terrain where, should
you lose your footing, you will be in danger of an uncontrolled slide
and subsequent high-energy encounter with the scenery.

Actually the original post that started this thread was based on the
observation that in some parts of the world it is more common to see
people choosing one combination of equipment than another.

There is no doubt that the common teaching in the UK is that an axe is
the first and foremost choice of equipment for winter. But that is a
teaching that is generalised to the UK experience of winter
mountaineering and carried on down through into hill-walking (and then
it is increasingly being applied to winter walking).

However in many other countries people learn to deal with winter snow in
different ways. Young people in scandanavia and the alps will learn to
get about in winter first and foremost using snowshoes and skis, with
poles. They don't need to use an ice-axe unless they are venturing onto
steeper slopes and going winter climbing and mountaineering (rather than
what we are talking about which is "winter walking"😉.

Because of this difference in background experience, and having
different winter skills, you'll encounter situations and winter
conditions where one person would be inclined to continue to use poles
and snowshoes or crampons, where another might decide an axe was
necessary. These people are using what they are comfortable with based
on their experience, knowledge and personal skills. To simply adopt the
arrogant sounding position that only the UK custom and practice is right
is absurd.

Mike
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
<\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
"> || _`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

Alan Dicey said:

I will take your word for it, but I'd still like to know how you use a
pole to self-arrest, and you can't get away with saying "pretty much the
same as you do with an axe" because they are completely different in
shape, size and rigidity. And your practiced ice-axe arrests are going
to be no use at all, you need to practice the ski-pole arrest, with
crampon complications.

The most fundamental point in starting an arrest with anything, be it a
pole, or an axe, or the tiptoes of your boots, is to get into the
braking position which is face down and feet first. So far, pole is
just like an axe, and indeed just like a no-tools arrest.

After that you need a brake point, which will be the tip of the pole
rather than the pick or adze of the axe. And you want as much weight on
it as possible, applied progressively. Again, this is just the same as
with an axe. So much the same, in fact, that it doesn't involve
separate practice. The first time I did a ski pole arrest I'd fallen on
my skis and was sliding. I'd never practised a pole arrest, knew all
about axe arrests, stopped myself.

Quoted message said:

The pole is surely attached to your wrist at the top with a strap (or do
ski-pole have sliding straps?), making it impossible to get hold of the
stick near the point, which is the only way I can see you stopping a slide.

You've got two hands and you only need to one point in. The other hand
will be over a meter away which makes it considerably more awkward, but
not impossible, as I know from doing it a couple of times "in anger".

Quoted message said:

The poster is proposing to go where crampons are needed with only poles
as backup. I can only assume that he is planning never to fall, or never
to go where a fall will put him in danger of sliding over a drop. The
former case is sheer madness

On a big sheet of water ice, which is what you've got after a big thaw
and sudden refreeze, the former case is what you've got even if you've
an axe. You won't self arrest on hard ice. You might see it as "sheer
madness", in which case stay home.

Quoted message said:

so he must be talking of terrain that is
benign, gentle slopes or none at all and masses of room to stop with no
danger of a cliff spoiling your day. Not the sort of terrain I have
ever come across on winter walks

Have a look at the Cairngorm plateau: plenty of terrain that fits that
descrption. Wander up to the Great Moss from Glen Feshie and that could
describe your day fairly well.

Quoted message said:

I wasn't voluntary :-) And how did you know it was an old t-shirt?

Round here we have things called "washing machines"! ;-)

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If you were going on a winter walk where some snow/ice was likely, but
nothing particularly difficult or dangerous, which would you take
first, and why? (Note the emphasis on walk - I don't mean
front-pointing up gullies.)

I used to think the decision was considered straightforward, but I find
that the majority of people I encounter in the hills (round here at
least - which is Japan) make the opposing decision.

Not owning any crampons, I tend to just use an ice axe. Even then I have
never really needed either in March/April. Occasionally there are snow
slopes where you have to kick a bit to get grip but nothing so serious as
needing crampons.

"Alan Dicey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Crispin said:

If you are carrying a pole, crampons.

If you are not carrying a pole, ice axe.

<splort!>

Okay, apart from the keyboard, screen and t-shirt you owe me...

Please tell us all how you can self-arrest with a walking pole.

To be perfectly honest if it was a choice between dying horribly falling a
long way or jamming a walking pole into the ice, I would make a way to make
it arrest a fall ;-)

Rob Devereux said:

Not owning any crampons, I tend to just use an ice axe. Even then I have
never really needed either in March/April.

This year, winter conditions really got going at the start of March and
were very much still there in April...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Step cutting comes into its own when only intermittent hard patches
are encountered - a common occurrance.

Was rather fun havingto do this at 700m on the west coast in April
mind - the pleasures of an old fashioned Spring.

Richard Webb

The message <[email hidden]>
from "Rob Devereux" <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Not owning any crampons, I tend to just use an ice axe. Even then I have
never really needed either in March/April. Occasionally there are snow
slopes where you have to kick a bit to get grip but nothing so serious as
needing crampons.

One Easter many moons ago I and a friend were heading up one of the more
obscure Munros at the West end of Glencoe*. We were following footprints
in some pretty soggy snow on a gloomy day when we were passed by a pair
descending who looked decidedly glum and didn't return our greeting
(which was unusual in those days). A few hundred feet higher the
footprints abruptly stopped as the soggy snow turned to iron hard in
just a few feet. Too hard to kick steps and crampons were a must. I had
some difficulty getting mine on as the slope was quite steep and I
didn't retreat to the soft stuff.

*Looking at the map that would have been Sgor na h'Ulaidh and the year
was 1980.
--
Roger Chapman

On Mon, 8 May 2006 17:31:05 +0100, Roger <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

One Easter many moons ago I and a friend were heading up one of the more
obscure Munros at the West end of Glencoe*. We were following footprints
in some pretty soggy snow on a gloomy day when we were passed by a pair
descending who looked decidedly glum and didn't return our greeting
(which was unusual in those days). A few hundred feet higher the
footprints abruptly stopped as the soggy snow turned to iron hard in
just a few feet. Too hard to kick steps and crampons were a must. I had
some difficulty getting mine on as the slope was quite steep and I
didn't retreat to the soft stuff.

*Looking at the map that would have been Sgor na h'Ulaidh and the year
was 1980.

That brings back nasty memories. A few years after your experience I
and a friend were descending the same hill at a similar time of year.
There was very little snow about so we'd left the axes and crampons in
the car. We came to a short steep section of ridge around halfway down
and rather than risk scrambling decided to play safe and traverse into
the corrie across several patches of good hard snow.... except the
third patch was rotten and sent me on a 200ft slide and tumble into
the boulders below. Luckily I got away with nothing worse than severe
bruising and shock, but it taught me a valuable lesson.
Al
--
[This space left intentionally blank]

In message <[email hidden]>

Roger said:

A few hundred feet higher the footprints abruptly stopped as the soggy
snow turned to iron hard in just a few feet. Too hard to kick steps
and crampons were a must. I had some difficulty getting mine on as the
slope was quite steep and I didn't retreat to the soft stuff.

I had an interesting experience trying to get crampons on just a few
weeks ago. We were ski-touring and traversing the Pigne D'Arolla
from the Dix Hut near Arolla in Switzerland. There is a steep shoulder
just before you approach the summit. We had set up the shoulder on skis,
using ski-crampons, hoping that the snow would be suitable all the way
to the top. After a point of difficult return it became clear that the
slope was getting very icey and that ordinary crampons would be better
than skis and ski-crampons. To add extra excitement it was blowing a
gale and was tending towards whiteout conditions and also the run-out
potential wasn't pleasant and included some crevasses!

To accomplish this I had to shuffle up to just behind my wife whilst we
both balanced on our skis, and then extract an ice-axe from her
rucksack. With the axe I then chopped out a platform for her whilst
balancing on my skis, and she then stepped from her skis to the
platform, whilst I stopped her skis from slidding away. Having then
handed her the skis to stow on her rucksack and whilst she put on her
crampons, I then had to shuffle back a few feet and chop out a platform
of my own and step off of my skis to the platform and again without
loosing either ski. It was all fairly precarious.

Mike
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
<\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
"> || _`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

On 6 May 2006 02:14:28 -0700, "Bedspring" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

You can go with an ice axe but no crampons, but you should not take
crampons and no ice axe because GENERALLY crampons can get you into
trouble and the ice axe can get you out of trouble.

On the contrary, an axe might (or might not) stop you if you fall, but
crampons keep you out of trouble by stopping you falling in the first
place.

So the answer to the question is crampons.

Or buy one of those super-lightweight axes and take both :-)

S.
--
Oppose ID cards and the database state
http://www.no2id.com/

Alan Dicey said:

Please tell us all how you can self-arrest with a walking pole.

If you're wearing crampons then you won't fall over in the first
place.

Those who say you must take an axe so you can stop yourself when you
fall over are making 2 mistakes.
1. You're basing your choices on the assumption that you will fall
over. Why? You don't do that in the summer (or you'd use a rope and
wear a helmet on all walks).
2. You're assuming that if you have an axe then you will be able to
stop. On ice or hard neve, the chances that it will help are slim -
unless you manage to get the axe in before you've built up any spewed
at all, and in that case, a pole would do almost as well.

S.

--
Oppose ID cards and the database state
http://www.no2id.com/

Simon Caldwell said:

1. You're basing your choices on the assumption that you will fall
over. Why? You don't do that in the summer (or you'd use a rope and
wear a helmet on all walks).

Ahem...

This topic has been debated ad infinitum on uk.rec.cycling. A helmet
does nothing to prevent a fall, indeed, it does little to protect in
the event of a fall. When climbing it offers good protection against
falling rocks.

Tom Crispin said:

This topic has been debated ad infinitum on uk.rec.cycling. A helmet
does nothing to prevent a fall, indeed, it does little to protect in
the event of a fall. When climbing it offers good protection against
falling rocks.

But we're not talking about cycling. A climbing helmet can and does
prevent serious injury or death in the event of a fall. Cycling
helmets and climbing helmets are different things - which is why a
cycling helmet, though better than nothing, is not that much use for
climbing.

--
Oppose ID cards and the database state
http://www.no2id.com/

Simon Caldwell writes
<If you're wearing crampons then you won't fall over in the first
place. >

I would be pretty concerned about going on the hills with you, having
made a sweeping statement like that. Mountaineering is a hazard sport
and all hazards can occur and therefore must be allowed for - you must
make allowance for all eventuallities if you are in a dangerous place,
and that does include circumstances in which one loses one balance for
any of a number of reasons.

The original poster did quite categorically state easy terrain for his
crampon use and as such perhaps the likelihood of a fall is less
likely. My concern about this reference to easy terrain is how one
gets on and off it if indeed it is a flat hill top, or the Cairngorm
plateau as referenced elsewhere in this thread. I have my doubts as to
whether there is 'easy terrain' in this country which could freeze in
the manner suggested and has equally easy access which doesn't
represent a hazard when ascending or descending.

A circumstance I have rarely met in the Scottish hills is that
mentioned elsewhere about frozen paths - I could well see that crampons
and poles might work better here where there is clearly no risk of a
fall leading to a life threatening slide.

Rob

In message <[email hidden]>, Rob
G <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Simon Caldwell writes
<If you're wearing crampons then you won't fall over in the first
place. >

I would be pretty concerned about going on the hills with you, having
made a sweeping statement like that. Mountaineering is a hazard sport
and all hazards can occur and therefore must be allowed for - you must
make allowance for all eventuallities if you are in a dangerous place,
and that does include circumstances in which one loses one balance for
any of a number of reasons.

The original poster did quite categorically state easy terrain for his
crampon use and as such perhaps the likelihood of a fall is less
likely. My concern about this reference to easy terrain is how one
gets on and off it if indeed it is a flat hill top, or the Cairngorm
plateau as referenced elsewhere in this thread. I have my doubts as to
whether there is 'easy terrain' in this country which could freeze in
the manner suggested and has equally easy access which doesn't
represent a hazard when ascending or descending.

A circumstance I have rarely met in the Scottish hills is that
mentioned elsewhere about frozen paths - I could well see that crampons
and poles might work better here where there is clearly no risk of a
fall leading to a life threatening slide.

On the day on the Cairngorm plateau referenced earlier by me there was
ice everywhere and the only snow was on easy terrain. An ice axe would
have been better than nothing as a support but poles were far more
useful. Crampons were essential unless you wanted to hop from rock to
rock, hoping not to slip, and take a very roundabout route. I went up
the north west slopes of Cairn Lochan above Lurcher's Meadows. Half way
up the amount of ice in relation to bare ground increased enough for me
to realise progress would be a great deal easier with crampons so I
stopped and put them on. I then kept them on until near the bottom of
the Fiacaill a' Choire Chais. An ice axe arrest would not have been
possible anywhere except maybe on some gentle snow slopes on the plateau
where a slide would not have been dangerous. The biggest danger was not
a long slide but falling heavily onto a rock or sliding a few feet into
one. Poles and crampons were fine for minimising the risk of this
happening.

Six weeks later I did the same route in reverse on skis and again used
poles throughout. I did have axe and crampons with me but used neither.
Then in April I did a walk in the Glen Affric hills in deep snow and
again used poles rather than an axe.

I wouldn't go onto the snowy hills in Britain without an axe but it's
not always necessary to use one and poles can be more useful in some
circumstances. Crampons can be more use at times too.

On 8 May 2006 13:56:35 -0700, "Rob G" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Mountaineering is a hazard sport
and all hazards can occur and therefore must be allowed for - you must
make allowance for all eventuallities if you are in a dangerous place,

If you make allowance for too many eventualities then you'll never go
anywhere.

The reason for wearing crampons (in a walking rather than climbing
context) is to avoid falling over. The reason for carrying an ice axe
(in the same context) is to try to save yourself once you have already
fallen.

Therefore, the use of crampons must prevent more accidents than the
use of an axe.

:-)

S.

--
Oppose ID cards and the database state
http://www.no2id.com/

On Mon, 08 May 2006 18:56:16 +0100, Simon Caldwell
<[email hidden]> wrote:

... >On 6 May 2006 02:14:28 -0700, "Bedspring" <[email hidden]>
... >wrote:
... >>
... >>You can go with an ice axe but no crampons, but you should not take
... >>crampons and no ice axe because GENERALLY crampons can get you into
... >>trouble and the ice axe can get you out of trouble.
... >
... >On the contrary, an axe might (or might not) stop you if you fall, but
... >crampons keep you out of trouble by stopping you falling in the first
... >place.
... >
..

You obviously have never stuck a 12 point crampon into the opposite
leg's gaitor by accident then ?

Mike P

In message <[email hidden]>

Rob G said:

Simon Caldwell writes
<If you're wearing crampons then you won't fall over in the first
place. >

I would be pretty concerned about going on the hills with you, having
made a sweeping statement like that. Mountaineering is a hazard sport
and all hazards can occur and therefore must be allowed for - you must
make allowance for all eventuallities if you are in a dangerous place,
and that does include circumstances in which one loses one balance for
any of a number of reasons.

Look that in its own right is also a sweeping and stupid statement.

Yes mountaineering is a hazardous sport and people who take part need to
be aware that they should exercise judgement and take personal
responsibility for their own safety and the safety of others. But that
certainly doesn't mean that everybody has to make the same decision in
the same circumstance, particularly about the most appropriate use of
equipment.

As a rock climber I appreciate very much that others have greater
ability and nerve than me, and will climb easily up routes that I would
struggle or fail on. Indeed many of these climbers would solo on routes
that I would only attempt using a rope and protection. Does that make
them wrong to climb un-roped? Equally even though I am only a low grade
climber I might be happy without a rope where some walkers would insist
on using a rope. Does that me wrong in that situation? Making allowance
for eventualities doesn't mean using full safety equipment and
protection all the time. You have to allow for differences in judgement
based on peoples personal experience and skills. Sometimes they'll get
it wrong.

Quoted message said:

The original poster did quite categorically state easy terrain for his
crampon use and as such perhaps the likelihood of a fall is less
likely. My concern about this reference to easy terrain is how one
gets on and off it if indeed it is a flat hill top, or the Cairngorm
plateau as referenced elsewhere in this thread. I have my doubts as
to whether there is 'easy terrain' in this country which could freeze
in the manner suggested and has equally easy access which doesn't
represent a hazard when ascending or descending.

As I've pointed out to you you'll find ski slopes crowded with folk who
don't carry, and often wouldn't know how to use an ice-axe. In case you
hadn't noticed there is a big ski area on the Cairngorms. If you're
telling me that it is always unsafe for folk to venture onto the
Cairngorms without an ice-axe someone should go and stop all those
skiers. Also what about Aonach Mor or White Corries? There are folk up
there in winter without ice-axes as well!

Quoted message said:

A circumstance I have rarely met in the Scottish hills is that
mentioned elsewhere about frozen paths -

A situation I've encountered several times throughout the UK, including
a notable time when I was walking up Pen-y-Ghent.

Quoted message said:

I could well see that crampons and poles might work better here where
there is clearly no risk of a fall leading to a life threatening
slide.

Rob

I've a question for you? Have you ever tried downhill skiing or
snowboarding? Did you take an ice-axe?

Mike
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
<\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
"> || _`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

In message <[email hidden]>

Simon Caldwell said:

On 8 May 2006 13:56:35 -0700, "Rob G" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Mountaineering is a hazard sport
and all hazards can occur and therefore must be allowed for - you must
make allowance for all eventuallities if you are in a dangerous place,

If you make allowance for too many eventualities then you'll never go
anywhere.

The reason for wearing crampons (in a walking rather than climbing
context) is to avoid falling over. The reason for carrying an ice axe
(in the same context) is to try to save yourself once you have already
fallen.

Therefore, the use of crampons must prevent more accidents than the
use of an axe.

:-)

S.

Yes then of course you also have to consider what axe you happen to be
carrying. I tend to carry a medium length semi-technical Mountain
Technology axe when winter hill-walking and mountaineering. That axe is
an ideal length when used on easier grade climbing terrain, Grade I to
III, but that also means it's not ideal as a walking support on easier
ground. Thus I use poles for much of the walking, changing to the axe if
I think it is warranted. When ski-mountaineering I compromise even
further by carrying a shorter lightweight touring axe. That is even less
useful as a walking aid so I frequently use the poles for longer until
the ground becomes much steeper. I'm sure there will be many on this
group who favour longer shafted dedicated walking axes, and they will
tend to use them on much easier grade terrain and instead of poles.

As I keep saying the choice of equipment is as much about personal
preference, knowledge and skills as anything else and there aren't clear
objective rules that can be written down on tablets of stone for all to
worship.

Mike
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
<\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
"> || _`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"