Ideal loaded touring wheel

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by john, Jan 6, 2006.

  1. john

    john Guest

    Hi All

    I need to build a new rear 700C wheel. The old un fell apart after 20
    yrs & god only knows how many 10 ks of miles. Here are my ideal specs:
    XTR hub 36h silver (steel frame, I've widened to 135mm); Ritchie OCR
    Pro rim, silver: DT Alp III spokes silver; brass nipples.

    Now the situation is that every one of those items has a problem!
    (Except the nipples)
    XTR hub, too much $$$ Ritchie OCR Pro rim, can't find in 700C; 36h; DT
    Alp III spokes, heard grumblings about premature "J" section failure,
    including from Peter White.

    Ok, XTR hub no big deal, I'll use an XT.
    Ritchie OCR Pro: Does or did Ritchie make this rim in 36h 700C? I've
    both called & emailed them w/ no luck. If not the OCR Pro, I considered
    the Velocity Aerohead, it's a little too narrow, (I use ~35mm tires)
    although it's still a possibility. I really believe that OCR is an
    entirely valid concept. (I know, I know, people have built great wheels
    w/o it for decades, but I 'm certain that it builds a better wheel) I
    just don't understand why Mavic or some other top European rim
    manufactures won't make rims w/ it, even if it does cost a licensing
    fee. My god they charge $100 for virtually useless ceramic rims.)
    Another rim possibility is the Mavic A-719. Another possibility is
    Ambrosia, but I can't find them on the web for the life of me. (I have
    found Ambrosia in the past).
    DT Alp III spokes; I have to wonder if the "J" section failures were
    caused by DT's use of too long "J" sections on all or most of their
    spokes a few years ago? If so, have they shortened the Alp IIIs as they
    have w/ all their other models, so they're not prone breakage? Again
    this isn't a really big deal. I'm sure the Sapim Race 14 /15 I would
    normally use, will be just fine.

    Any help greatly appreciated, John

    It's just so damn annoying to start out w/ an ideal & see everything
    about it go down in flames, except for the brass nipples. The real
    problem that still exists for me is the rim. Reality's a bitch
    sometimes. Boo Hoo Hoo poor me :/)
     
    Tags:


  2. daveornee

    daveornee New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2003
    Messages:
    2,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    XT is a very good quality hub @ a reasonable price.
    Ritchey doesn't make 36H OCR Trekking 700C rims, but Velocity does for Rivendell:
    http://www.rivbike.com/webalog/wheels/18094.html
    My latest experience with DT Alpine III was the "long neck" trouble. I think you will be fine with Sapim Race 14/15 DB.
    Velocity Dyad and Mavic A719 are both good loaded touring rims. I have used them both with great results.
    I haven't used the Rivendell Velocity Synergy OC 700C in 36H but I have used them in 32H OC 700C and 26" MTB 32H with good results.
     
  3. In article
    <[email protected]>,
    "john" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Another possibility is
    > Ambrosia, but I can't find them on the web for the life of me. (I have
    > found Ambrosia in the past).


    Ambrosio. I was told to have my LBS call Pronet (no web
    prsence that I found) in Washington for Ambrosio rims.

    <P0Fuf.2305$%[email protected]>

    ProNet, Inc.
    910 N. Cambrian Ave.
    Bremerton WA 98312
    Tel: 360-782-2463

    --
    Michael Press
     
  4. john

    john Guest

    Hi dave
    Great info, especially the Rivendell Synergy. That's just the type of
    thing I was hoping for. I had no idea that Rivendell was doing that,
    even though I visit their site once in a while. In the mean time I
    visited Damon Rinard's rim data sheet & found that Ritchie has made
    quite a few OCR 700C rims, but I didn't see the # of holes. I wonder
    when they were made and are they still around. Isn't the # of holes an
    essential variable for spoke length calks? I need to look at that sheet
    again.

    Thanks so much again, John
     
  5. john

    john Guest

    Hi Michael
    I may try to reach Pronet, but I'm not sure it would be worth my
    effort. Especially in light of daveornee's info about the Rivendell
    Velocity Synergy OC.
    Thank you very much in any case, I really do appreciate it, John
     
  6. Nate Knutson

    Nate Knutson Guest

    john wrote:
    > Hi Michael
    > I may try to reach Pronet, but I'm not sure it would be worth my
    > effort. Especially in light of daveornee's info about the Rivendell
    > Velocity Synergy OC.
    > Thank you very much in any case, I really do appreciate it, John


    I didn't know about the existance of 700c Synergy OC's and am also
    pretty excited about it, but the problem is that it's a single-eyelet
    rim. That makes it very, very short of perfection. I'm into OC as well
    but I still don't think I'd want this rim on a wheel I wanted to be the
    best touring wheel possible.
     
  7. daveornee

    daveornee New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2003
    Messages:
    2,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    If you want to see a pair of Ideal loaded touring wheels that I built, check URL:
    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7210017883
     
  8. David

    David Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    john <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Hi All
    >
    > I need to build a new rear 700C wheel. The old un fell apart after 20
    > yrs & god only knows how many 10 ks of miles. Here are my ideal specs:
    > XTR hub 36h silver (steel frame, I've widened to 135mm); Ritchie OCR
    > Pro rim, silver: DT Alp III spokes silver; brass nipples.
    >


    John,

    My ideal wheelset would be a LX rear hub, DT double butted 36 spokes,
    brass nipples, and a Mavic A719. Tried and true and last a long time.
    You really don't need a XT or XTR rear hub-- they are just too much
    money and give you very little in a way of any added performance boost
    while touring. When you're strapping all that camping gear and what
    not, a few hundred grams of saving on the XT or XTR hub won't make any
    difference. If you want to lighten your wallet, however, that would be
    a good way of doing it!

    David.
     
  9. Mark Janeba

    Mark Janeba Guest

    I've got a related question:

    I know the 9s road standard is 130mm over-lock-nut width, and 9s MTB is
    135mm.

    Question: Where is the extra 5mm put?

    i.e. are the hub flanges set 5mm further apart, or is there an extra 5mm
    on the right side of the axle to reduce dish, or did the 5mm go
    someplace else?

    Thanks,

    Mark
     
  10. Steve W

    Steve W Guest

    Have you thought of spending a little less on the wheel and getting a light
    trailer (Burly Nomad) for the gear?
    That's what I did and it's been a successful decision.

    SW


    "john" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Hi All
    >
    > I need to build a new rear 700C wheel. The old un fell apart after 20
    > yrs & god only knows how many 10 ks of miles. Here are my ideal specs:
    > XTR hub 36h silver (steel frame, I've widened to 135mm); Ritchie OCR
    > Pro rim, silver: DT Alp III spokes silver; brass nipples.
    >
    > Now the situation is that every one of those items has a problem!
    > (Except the nipples)
    > XTR hub, too much $$$ Ritchie OCR Pro rim, can't find in 700C; 36h; DT
    > Alp III spokes, heard grumblings about premature "J" section failure,
    > including from Peter White.
    >
    > Ok, XTR hub no big deal, I'll use an XT.
    > Ritchie OCR Pro: Does or did Ritchie make this rim in 36h 700C? I've
    > both called & emailed them w/ no luck. If not the OCR Pro, I considered
    > the Velocity Aerohead, it's a little too narrow, (I use ~35mm tires)
    > although it's still a possibility. I really believe that OCR is an
    > entirely valid concept. (I know, I know, people have built great wheels
    > w/o it for decades, but I 'm certain that it builds a better wheel) I
    > just don't understand why Mavic or some other top European rim
    > manufactures won't make rims w/ it, even if it does cost a licensing
    > fee. My god they charge $100 for virtually useless ceramic rims.)
    > Another rim possibility is the Mavic A-719. Another possibility is
    > Ambrosia, but I can't find them on the web for the life of me. (I have
    > found Ambrosia in the past).
    > DT Alp III spokes; I have to wonder if the "J" section failures were
    > caused by DT's use of too long "J" sections on all or most of their
    > spokes a few years ago? If so, have they shortened the Alp IIIs as they
    > have w/ all their other models, so they're not prone breakage? Again
    > this isn't a really big deal. I'm sure the Sapim Race 14 /15 I would
    > normally use, will be just fine.
    >
    > Any help greatly appreciated, John
    >
    > It's just so damn annoying to start out w/ an ideal & see everything
    > about it go down in flames, except for the brass nipples. The real
    > problem that still exists for me is the rim. Reality's a bitch
    > sometimes. Boo Hoo Hoo poor me :/)
    >
     
  11. D'ohBoy

    D'ohBoy Guest

    snippage of many questions except:

    > web source for ambrosio rims?


    www.ital-tecno.com used to have them.

    Hows about cxp-33's?

    D'ohBoy
     
  12. john wrote:
    > Hi All
    >
    > I need to build a new rear 700C wheel. The old un fell apart after 20
    > yrs & god only knows how many 10 ks of miles. Here are my ideal specs:
    > XTR hub 36h silver (steel frame, I've widened to 135mm); Ritchie OCR
    > Pro rim, silver: DT Alp III spokes silver; brass nipples.


    If the old hub toasted? If not, reuse it.
    Velocity Dyad, using Alpine spokes is no big deal altho What I would
    recommend is a Phil hub, 40h, Velocity Dyad rim, laced 4 cross with
    14/15 spokes...

    BUT a 36h XTR hub is easy, but a XT is the same w/o a titanium freehub
    body and axle. Not worth the $ IMO, since this is a loaded touring
    bicycle. The rims are still available, AAMOF, I think I have some.


    >
    > Now the situation is that every one of those items has a problem!
    > (Except the nipples)
    > XTR hub, too much $$$ Ritchie OCR Pro rim, can't find in 700C; 36h; DT
    > Alp III spokes, heard grumblings about premature "J" section failure,
    > including from Peter White.
    >
    > Ok, XTR hub no big deal, I'll use an XT.
    > Ritchie OCR Pro: Does or did Ritchie make this rim in 36h 700C? I've
    > both called & emailed them w/ no luck. If not the OCR Pro, I considered
    > the Velocity Aerohead, it's a little too narrow, (I use ~35mm tires)
    > although it's still a possibility.



    It's a little too light IMO as well. for loaded touring.


    I really believe that OCR is an
    > entirely valid concept. (I know, I know, people have built great wheels
    > w/o it for decades, but I 'm certain that it builds a better wheel) I
    > just don't understand why Mavic or some other top European rim
    > manufactures won't make rims w/ it, even if it does cost a licensing
    > fee.


    Cuz they cost more, easy...

    My god they charge $100 for virtually useless ceramic rims.)
    > Another rim possibility is the Mavic A-719. Another possibility is
    > Ambrosia, but I can't find them on the web for the life of me. (I have
    > found Ambrosia in the past).
    > DT Alp III spokes; I have to wonder if the "J" section failures were
    > caused by DT's use of too long "J" sections on all or most of their
    > spokes a few years ago? If so, have they shortened the Alp IIIs as they
    > have w/ all their other models, so they're not prone breakage? Again
    > this isn't a really big deal. I'm sure the Sapim Race 14 /15 I would
    > normally use, will be just fine.
    >
    > Any help greatly appreciated, John
    >
    > It's just so damn annoying to start out w/ an ideal & see everything
    > about it go down in flames, except for the brass nipples. The real
    > problem that still exists for me is the rim. Reality's a bitch
    > sometimes. Boo Hoo Hoo poor me :/)



    I think ya need to call a decent bike shop, not just rely on MO...Andy
    Muzi or I make these type wheels all the time. BUT again, I think a 420
    gr rim, either the ritchey or Velocity is too light for loaded touring.
     
  13. john

    john Guest

    Nate Knutson wrote:
    > john wrote:
    > > Hi Michael
    > > I may try to reach Pronet, but I'm not sure it would be worth my
    > > effort. Especially in light of daveornee's info about the Rivendell
    > > Velocity Synergy OC.
    > > Thank you very much in any case, I really do appreciate it, John

    >
    > I didn't know about the existance of 700c Synergy OC's and am also
    > pretty excited about it, but the problem is that it's a single-eyelet
    > rim. That makes it very, very short of perfection. I'm into OC as well
    > but I still don't think I'd want this rim on a wheel I wanted to be the
    > best touring wheel possible.


    Nate, I agree.
    However, so far as I know, there are no dbl eyeleted, OCR rims made. I
    hope I'm wrong. Three things: #1. the rim industry seems to be
    abandoning eyelets altogether, single or double. Very disappointing.
    #2, I'm not certain that a dbl eyelet can be inserted in an asymmetric
    rim due to the lack of space on the left side. It may be possible, but
    it would take a little R & D. An awful lot of good wheels are being
    built w/o double eyelets. #3 I have the impression that the
    manufactures of rims see the greater profit in whole wheel sales. &
    Some, (or at least Campy, I know for sure), builds wheels w/ OCR. They
    don't seem to want to compete w/ other wheel builders using their own
    rims. Most dbl eye. rims come across the Atlantic & I don't believe
    they give a rats ass about rim sales per se. In fact many Euro bike
    companies (& Shimanio too, for that mater) don't' seem to care or
    listen to what their customers want. (Sapim for an example.) It's like
    "we make a good, or good enough product. Take it or leave it".
    Another thought is, do dbl eyelets contribute more to the longevity of
    a wheel than OCR? My vote goes for OCR, but I'm not certain. I'm open
    to believe a good argument showing otherwise. With further thought, I
    doubt that the question could ever answered satisfactorily, due to the
    effect of various alloys alone. I.E. How could anyone other than a
    manufacturer test 2 identical rims except that one has dbl eyelets. I
    would love to try it if I had the means. If a manufacturer has done
    this I doubt the results were made public.

    It's probably religion, and will remain based on faith, John
     
  14. john

    john Guest

    David wrote:

    >My ideal wheelset would be a LX rear hub, ............


    I agree, weight plays very small roll in a loaded touring bike.
    Actually my 1st choose is a Phil hub, it's heaver that most of
    Shimano's hubs. But it's so expensive that I didn't really consider it.
    XTR or XT weren't selected on the basis of weight, rather on the
    possibility of superior quality. I know that XTR is lighter than XT,
    but I consider it up to the task. I consider XTR to be better quality
    than XT & XT to be superior quality to LX. Am I mistaken?
    It would be very comical if the only difference between XT & LX, is
    that Shimano machines a few more grams from a XT hub shell.
    Are both shells forged? And forged from the same spec alloy? Use the
    same parts, bearings, & seals? Only diff. is the grams?
    The reason I choose XT is because of it's small cost over LX, based on
    the belief of better quality.

    Would David or anyone else w/ a small degree of certainty of this
    question, please speak up, John
     
  15. john

    john Guest

    SteveW wrote:

    >Have you thought of spending a little less on the wheel and getting a light
    >trailer (Burly Nomad) for the gear?
    >That's what I did and it's been a successful decision.


    Yes, Steve! Funny that you would say that;

    I was looking at BOB's web site today! I'll have to check out Burly's.
    However, I don't think I would build a rear wheel any differently for a
    trailer, except maybe to install a disc brake. Actually upon further
    thought, I don't see why I would need a disk brake. The BOB & bag only
    add ~20lbs. Rack or trailer, the weight's about the same, just coming
    from different directions.
    Besides ~$130 doesn't seem like much for a good wheel.

    Thanks. John
     
  16. john

    john Guest

    SteveW wrote:

    >Have you thought of spending a little less on the wheel and getting a light
    >trailer (Burly Nomad) for the gear?
    >That's what I did and it's been a successful decision.


    Yes, Steve! Funny that you would say that;

    I was looking at BOB's web site today! I'll have to check out Burly's.
    However, I don't think I would build a rear wheel any differently for a
    trailer, except maybe to install a disc brake. Actually upon further
    thought, I don't see why I would need a disk brake. The BOB & bag only
    add ~20lbs. Rack or trailer, the weight's about the same, just coming
    from different directions.
    Besides ~$130 doesn't seem like much for a good wheel.

    Thanks. John
     
  17. john

    john Guest

    David wrote:

    >My ideal wheelset would be a LX rear hub, ............


    I agree, weight plays very small roll in a loaded touring bike.
    Actually my 1st choose is a Phil hub, it's heaver that most of
    Shimano's hubs. But it's so expensive that I didn't really consider it.
    XTR or XT weren't selected on the basis of weight, rather on the
    possibility of superior quality. I know that XTR is lighter than XT,
    but I consider it up to the task. I consider XTR to be better quality
    than XT & XT to be superior quality to LX. Am I mistaken?
    It would be very comical if the only difference between XT & LX, is
    that Shimano machines a few more grams from a XT hub shell.
    Are both shells forged? And forged from the same spec alloy? Use the
    same parts, bearings, & seals? Only diff. is the grams?
    The reason I choose XT is because of it's small cost over LX, based on
    the belief of better quality.

    Would David or anyone else w/ a small degree of certainty of this
    question, please speak up, John
     
  18. john

    john Guest

    Nate Knutson wrote:
    > john wrote:
    > > Hi Michael
    > > I may try to reach Pronet, but I'm not sure it would be worth my
    > > effort. Especially in light of daveornee's info about the Rivendell
    > > Velocity Synergy OC.
    > > Thank you very much in any case, I really do appreciate it, John


    Nate wrote:

    > I didn't know about the existance of 700c Synergy OC's and am also
    > pretty excited about it, but the problem is that it's a single-eyelet
    > rim. That makes it very, very short of perfection. I'm into OC as well
    > but I still don't think I'd want this rim on a wheel I wanted to be the
    > best touring wheel possible.


    Nate, I agree.
    However, so far as I know, there are no dbl eyeleted, OCR rims made. I
    hope I'm wrong. Three things: #1. the rim industry seems to be
    abandoning eyelets altogether, single or double. Very disappointing.
    #2, I'm not certain that a dbl eyelet can be inserted in an asymmetric
    rim due to the lack of space on the left side. It may be possible, but
    it would take a little R & D. An awful lot of good wheels are being
    built w/o double eyelets. #3 I have the impression that the
    manufactures of rims see the greater profit in whole wheel sales. &
    Some, (or at least Campy, I know for sure), builds wheels w/ OCR. They
    don't seem to want to compete w/ other wheel builders using their own
    rims. Most dbl eye. rims come across the Atlantic & I don't believe
    they give a rats ass about rim sales per se. In fact many Euro bike
    companies (& Shimanio too, for that mater) don't' seem to care or
    listen to what their customers want. (Sapim for an example.) It's like
    "we make a good, or good enough product. Take it or leave it".
    Another thought is, do dbl eyelets contribute more to the longevity of
    a wheel than OCR? My vote goes for OCR, but I'm not certain. I'm open
    to believe a good argument showing otherwise. With further thought, I
    doubt that the question could ever answered satisfactorily, due to the
    effect of various alloys alone. I.E. How could anyone other than a
    manufacturer test 2 identical rims except that one has dbl eyelets. I
    would love to try it if I had the means. If a manufacturer has done
    this I doubt the results were made public.

    It's probably religion, and will remain based on faith, John
     
  19. john

    john Guest


    > I didn't know about the existance of 700c Synergy OC's and am also
    > pretty excited about it, but the problem is that it's a single-eyelet
    > rim. That makes it very, very short of perfection. I'm into OC as well
    > but I still don't think I'd want this rim on a wheel I wanted to be the
    > best touring wheel possible.


    Nate, I agree.
    However, so far as I know, there are no dbl eyeleted, OCR rims made. I
    hope I'm wrong. Three things: #1. the rim industry seems to be
    abandoning eyelets altogether, single or double. Very disappointing.
    #2, I'm not certain that a dbl eyelet can be inserted in an asymmetric
    rim due to the lack of space on the left side. It may be possible, but
    it would take a little R & D. An awful lot of good wheels are being
    built w/o double eyelets. #3 I have the impression that the
    manufactures of rims see the greater profit in whole wheel sales. &
    Some, (or at least Campy, I know for sure), builds wheels w/ OCR. They
    don't seem to want to compete w/ other wheel builders using their own
    rims. Most dbl eye. rims come across the Atlantic & I don't believe
    they give a rats ass about rim sales per se. In fact many Euro bike
    companies (& Shimanio too, for that mater) don't' seem to care or
    listen to what their customers want. (Sapim for an example.) It's like
    "we make a good, or good enough product. Take it or leave it".
    Another thought is, do dbl eyelets contribute more to the longevity of
    a wheel than OCR? My vote goes for OCR, but I'm not certain. I'm open
    to believe a good argument showing otherwise. With further thought, I
    doubt that the question could ever answered satisfactorily, due to the
    effect of various alloys alone. I.E. How could anyone other than a
    manufacturer test 2 identical rims except that one has dbl eyelets. I
    would love to try it if I had the means. If a manufacturer has done
    this I doubt the results were made public.

    It's probably religion, and will remain based on faith, John
     
  20. john

    john Guest


    > I didn't know about the existance of 700c Synergy OC's and am also
    > pretty excited about it, but the problem is that it's a single-eyelet
    > rim. That makes it very, very short of perfection. I'm into OC as well
    > but I still don't think I'd want this rim on a wheel I wanted to be the
    > best touring wheel possible.


    Nate, I agree.
    However, so far as I know, there are no dbl eyeleted, OCR rims made. I
    hope I'm wrong. Three things: #1. the rim industry seems to be
    abandoning eyelets altogether, single or double. Very disappointing.
    #2, I'm not certain that a dbl eyelet can be inserted in an asymmetric
    rim due to the lack of space on the left side. It may be possible, but
    it might take a little R & D. An awful lot of good wheels are being
    built w/o double eyelets. #3 I have the impression that the
    manufactures of rims see the greater profit in whole wheel sales. &
    Some, (or at least Campy, I know for sure), builds wheels w/ OCR. They
    don't seem to want to compete w/ other wheel builders using their own
    rims. Most dbl eye. rims come across the Atlantic & I don't believe
    they give a rats ass about rim sales per se. In fact many Euro bike
    companies (& Shimanio too, for that mater) don't' seem to care or
    listen to what their customers want. (Sapim for an example.) It's like
    "we make a good, or good enough product. Take it or leave it".
    Another thought is, do dbl eyelets contribute more to the longevity of
    a wheel than OCR? My vote goes for OCR, but I'm not certain. I'm open
    to believe a good argument showing otherwise. With further thought, I
    doubt that the question could ever answered satisfactorily, due to the
    effect of various alloys alone. I.E. How could anyone other than a
    manufacturer test 2 identical rims except that one has dbl eyelets &
    the other has one or none. I would love to try it if I had the means.
    If a manufacturer has done this I doubt the results were made public.

    It's probably religion, and will remain based on faith, John
     
Loading...
Loading...