If It Weren't for Bicycle Mechanics, There Wouldn't Be Any Such Thing As Aviation

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Bretcahill, Sep 4, 2003.

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  1. Bretcahill

    Bretcahill Guest

    This December NASA is having a big shindig at Kitty Hawk, NC where 2 bicycle mechanics introduced
    heavier than air flight in 1903.

    The Wright Brothers did all their own wind tunnel testing then calculated and designed and built
    their craft. They even designed and machined their own 35 hp engine without a lathe.

    Not surprisingly, the French figured out the significance of the invention first.

    Bret Cahill

    "We invented a new drink. It causes people to disappear. Some drinkers have disappeared for as long
    as six months [in the Manteo County jail]."

    -- The "Man Will Never Fly Society"
     
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  2. Trg

    Trg Guest

    Heavier than air flight was going to happen with or without the brothers Wright, although their
    flight and the publicity of it and their subsequent celebrity status certainly pushed it along.
    There has always been controversy about whether the Wright Brothers were the first to achieve
    heavier than air flight, or whether it was Clement Ader. Whatever the "truth" is, it doesn't take
    away from the ingenuity and perserverence of the Wright Brothers. Nor does the Wright Brothers feat
    take away from that of Ader, who was fascinated with flight and worked on it for some 50 years
    before Kittyhawk.

    Interestingly, among his other inventions (including improvements to the telephone) Ader also
    invented rubber tires for bicycles which until then had used iron 'tires".

    "BretCahill" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message news:
    [email protected]
    > This December NASA is having a big shindig at Kitty Hawk, NC where 2
    bicycle
    > mechanics introduced heavier than air flight in 1903.
    >
    > The Wright Brothers did all their own wind tunnel testing then calculated
    and
    > designed and built their craft. They even designed and machined their own
    35
    > hp engine without a lathe.
    >
    > Not surprisingly, the French figured out the significance of the invention first.
    >
    >
    > Bret Cahill
    >
    >
    > "We invented a new drink. It causes people to disappear. Some drinkers
    have
    > disappeared for as long as six months [in the Manteo County jail]."
    >
    > -- The "Man Will Never Fly Society"
     
  3. Bret-<< This December NASA is having a big shindig at Kitty Hawk, NC where 2 bicycle mechanics
    introduced heavier than air flight in 1903. >><BR><BR>

    Altho a pilot(USN(ret) and civilian) and have great respect for the brothers, heavier than air
    flight was being researched in a lot of places around the same time. The french, Italians, others
    all had projects.

    Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  4. Donald Munro

    Donald Munro Guest

    trg wrote:

    > Interestingly, among his other inventions (including improvements to the telephone) Ader also
    > invented rubber tires for bicycles which until then had used iron 'tires".

    With carbon forks ?
     
  5. Bretcahill

    Bretcahill Guest

    "trg" <[email protected]> in
    >Message-id: <[email protected]> writes:

    >Heavier than air flight was going to happen with or without the brothers Wright, although their
    >flight and the publicity of it and their subsequent celebrity status certainly pushed it along.

    True, but it's a good thing to tell dumb airline agents who balk at checking a bicycle on
    board a plane.

    Bret Cahill
     
  6. I think the real significance of the Wrights was not that they flew (others may have flown earlier
    or been close to flying), but that they recognized (and met) the need for three-axis control,
    without which aviation would not be practical. No other experimeters seem to have realized this.

    Paul

    "trg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > Heavier than air flight was going to happen with or without the brothers Wright, although their
    > flight and the publicity of it and their subsequent celebrity status certainly pushed it along.
     
  7. Paul Hamilton <[email protected]> wrote:
    >I think the real significance of the Wrights was not that they flew (others may have flown earlier
    >or been close to flying), but that they recognized (and met) the need for three-axis control,
    >without which aviation would not be practical.

    How did gliders work before then, then?
    --
    David Damerell <[email protected]> flcl?
     
  8. Trg

    Trg Guest

    True, Ader's "successful" flights all seemed to have ended with him totalling the plane. He got it
    flying but couldn't control it.

    "Paul Hamilton" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message news:
    [email protected]
    > I think the real significance of the Wrights was not that they flew (others may have flown earlier
    > or been close to flying), but that they recognized (and met) the need for three-axis control,
    > without which aviation would not be practical. No other experimeters seem to have realized this.
    >
    > Paul
    >
    > "trg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > > Heavier than air flight was going to happen with or without the brothers Wright, although their
    > > flight and the publicity of it and their
    subsequent
    > > celebrity status certainly pushed it along.
     
  9. Peter Chisholm asked:

    > But did the first flyer have rudders? I thought it had just twist wing to make it roll(changing
    > the camber, changing the lift, making the wing roll) and that action tended to make it yaw, plus
    > an elevator for pitch.
    >
    It did have a pair of rudders in back, which were linked to the wing warping ("aileron") controls
    and operated by the pilot wiggling his hips.

    See: http://www.nasm.si.edu/galleries/gal100/wright1903.html

    Sheldon "Orville Wright Signed My Father's Glider License" Brown
    +------------------------------------------------------------------+
    | Honestly, I think we should just trust our president in every | decision that he makes and we
    | should just support that. | -- Britney Spears, September 4, 2003 |
    +------------------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton,
    Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts
    shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
     
  10. Mark Hickey

    Mark Hickey Guest

    [email protected] (Paul Hamilton) wrote:

    >I think the real significance of the Wrights was not that they flew (others may have flown earlier
    >or been close to flying), but that they recognized (and met) the need for three-axis control,
    >without which aviation would not be practical. No other experimeters seem to have realized this.

    I'm more impressed with the efficiency they got out of their props (it's on par with what's still
    being done today), and the fact they invented the wind tunnel, which is useful for bicycling since
    it gives us bike manufacturers more ways to lie to y'all... ;-)

    Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
     
  11. John Albergo

    John Albergo Guest

    Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:

    >Paul-<< I think the real significance of the Wrights was not that they flew (others may have flown
    >earlier or been close to flying), but that they recognized (and met) the need for three-axis
    >control >><BR><BR>
    >
    >But did the first flyer have rudders? I thought it had just twist wing to make it roll(changing the
    >camber, changing the lift, making the wing roll) and that action tended to make it yaw, plus an
    >elevator for pitch.
    >
    >
    They solved the problem of adverse yaw with the pivoting vertical stabilizer during their tethered
    glider experiments. Their understanding of coordinated flight was one of the things that set them
    apart from other aviation pioneers.
     
  12. John Albergo

    John Albergo Guest

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    David Damerell wrote:

    >Paul Hamilton <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>I think the real significance of the Wrights was not that they flew (others may have flown earlier
    >>or been close to flying), but that they recognized (and met) the need for three-axis control,
    >>without which aviation would not be practical.
    >>
    >>
    >
    >How did gliders work before then, then?
    >
    >
    The same as hang gliders today -- weight shifting by the pilot; something that can't be scaled to
    larger/heavier craft.

    --------------010904060408050701040202 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

    <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <meta
    http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1"> <title></title> </head> <body>
    <br> <br> David Damerell wrote:<br> <blockquote type="cite"
    cite="midjK*[email protected]"> <pre wrap="">Paul Hamilton <a
    class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
    href="mailto:p[email protected]"><[email protected]></a> wrote: </pre> <blockquote
    type="cite"> <pre wrap="">I think the real significance of the Wrights was not that they flew
    (others may have flown earlier or been close to flying), but that they recognized (and met) the need
    for three-axis control, without which aviation would not be practical. </pre> </blockquote> <pre
    wrap=""><!----> How did gliders work before then, then? </pre> </blockquote> The same as hang
    gliders today -- weight shifting by the pilot; something that can't be scaled to larger/heavier
    craft.<br> </body> </html>

    --------------010904060408050701040202--
     
  13. I wrote of the Wright Flyer:

    >>It did have a pair of rudders in back, which were linked to the wing warping ("aileron") controls
    >>and operated by the pilot wiggling his hips.

    > How cool, the first 'ARI', aileron-rudder interconnect!!

    The Wright brothers were unspeakably cool, and were amazingly ingenious at adapting bicycle
    technology to the needs of their aircraft.

    The original Flyer is in the Smithsonian (finally!) but I had an opportunity to get a much closer
    look at the replica in Kill Devil Hill NC a couple of years ago. The props were driven by bicycle
    chain (old style 1" pitch) and the "landing gear" (actually only "take-off" gear consists of bicycle
    front hubs, set to roll on the edges of a row of vertically oriented 2 by lumber.

    My favorite Wright artfact, though is a bicycle in the Henry Ford Museum. Before they made the first
    wind tunnel, they needed a way to measure air drag of various potential airfoil shapes.

    They mounted a bicycle wheel on the handlebars of a bike with the axle straight up. They would mount
    a sample airfoil model on one side of the wheel, and a reference airfoil 180 degrees away. Then one
    of them would ride the bike and observe which way the wheel would turn in response to the
    slipstream. A brilliantly thrifty solution to an important question.

    Sheldon "In Awe Of Wilbur and Orville" Brown
    +-------------------------------------------------------------+
    | An editor is one who separates the wheat from the chaff | and prints the chaff. --Adlai
    | Stevenson |
    +-------------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton,
    Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts
    shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
     
  14. William Blum

    William Blum Guest

  15. On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 16:13:54 -0400, Sheldon Brown <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Peter Chisholm asked:
    >
    >> But did the first flyer have rudders? I thought it had just twist wing to make it roll(changing
    >> the camber, changing the lift, making the wing roll) and that action tended to make it yaw, plus
    >> an elevator for pitch.
    >>
    >It did have a pair of rudders in back, which were linked to the wing warping ("aileron") controls
    >and operated by the pilot wiggling his hips.

    Which means the first airplane had a ARI (Aileron-Rudder-Interconnect) just like Peter's F-16N (tho
    the F-16's is a bit more complex).

    John Henderson, New York City, USA
    =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
    "Let's roll!" -- Todd Beamer, 9/11/01 "After five and weekends" -- 711th SOS
    =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     
  16. Ray Heindl

    Ray Heindl Guest

    Sheldon Brown <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Peter Chisholm asked:
    >
    >> But did the first flyer have rudders? I thought it had just twist wing to make it roll(changing
    >> the camber, changing the lift, making the wing roll) and that action tended to make it yaw, plus
    >> an elevator for pitch.
    >>
    > It did have a pair of rudders in back, which were linked to the wing warping ("aileron") controls
    > and operated by the pilot wiggling his hips.
    >
    > See: http://www.nasm.si.edu/galleries/gal100/wright1903.html

    Later versions separated the twist and rudder controls, to allow more flexibility in turns. I'm not
    sure if that came before or after the change from prone to sitting position.

    Their glider had no rudder at first, but they added one because the twisting caused increased drag
    on one end of the wing, causing it to yaw opposite the turn. At first they used a fixed "rudder",
    but then Orville had the bright idea to pivot it.

    I highly recommend _To Conquer the Air_ by James Tobin to anyone who wants to know more about the
    Wrights, Langley, Bell, and other early flyers. I'm sure it's no coincidence that the book was
    published this year.

    On a vaguely related note, why is Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004 subtitled "A Century of Flight"? I
    guess "1.01 centuries of flight" just doesn't have the same ring to it.

    --
    Ray Heindl (remove the X to reply)
     
  17. Ray Heindl wrote:

    > Their glider had no rudder at first, but they added one because the=20 twisting caused increased
    > drag on one end of the wing, causing it to=20 yaw opposite the turn. At first they used a fixed
    > "rudder", but then=20 Orville had the bright idea to pivot it.

    My dad's Ercoupe had no rudder, but had two vertical stabilizers in=20 back. I liked this, 'cause it
    meant I could fly it. I never ran into=20 that problem, but, since I was only 6-9 years old, I
    didn't generally do =

    any turning.

    His other plane, a Piper J3 Cub, was impossible for me to fly 'cause my=20 legs weren't long enough
    to reach the rudder pedals.

    The Ercoupe was way cooler anyway, it had all kinds of modern features:=20 low wing, tricycle
    landing gear, and coolest of all, it was the only=20 plane at the Somers airfield with a
    _metal_ prop!

    See: http://sheldonbrown.com/george-matson-brown.html

    Sheldon "Legs Are Longer Now" Brown
    +-------------------------------------------------------------------+
    | The secrets of flight will not be mastered within our lifetime=85 |
    | =85not within a thousand years =96Wilbur Wright, 1901 |=

    +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton,
    Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts
    shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
     
  18. On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:21:32 -0400, Sheldon Brown <[email protected]> wrote:

    >My dad's Ercoupe had no rudder, but had two vertical stabilizers in back. I liked this, 'cause it
    >meant I could fly it. I never ran into that problem, but, since I was only 6-9 years old, I didn't
    >generally do any turning.

    I thought the Ercoupe had rudders but that they were linked to the aileron control? Otherwise it
    couldn't make a coordinated turn without a rudder?

    ________________________________

    -= ®atzofratzo =-
     
  19. [email protected] (Paul Hamilton) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > I think the real significance of the Wrights was not that they flew (others may have flown earlier
    > or been close to flying), but that they recognized (and met) the need for three-axis control,
    > without which aviation would not be practical. No other experimeters seem to have realized this.
    >
    > Paul
    >
    >
    True. Also, the Wrights divined that one might actually have to learn to fly, sort of like learning
    to ride a bike. Only with flying, the danger to life and limb is much greater. They figured out that
    strong and constant headwinds would allow them to test machines and practice flying at low ground
    speed, hence they could survive the inevitable crashes, and profit from their errors. Others made
    mistakes and died. Hence Kitty Hawk. It had a second advantage of soft sand to cushion the hard
    landings. Who knows by how many years the Wrights advanced flight...10, perhaps 20?

    The soft sand is gone now as the Park Service has planted stabilizing grasses where the Wrights
    flew. I went there and loved it. There is a small but nice museum, replicas of the Wrights buildings
    and the paths of the first three flights are marked off on the ground so you can walk them. Kill
    Devil Hill overlooks the field. The surrounding town of Kitty Hawk is a tacky shore type
    neighborhood, but Kill Devil Hill and the National Park that surrounds it are a great vacation stop.

    Steve Shapiro [email protected]
     
  20. Mark Hickey

    Mark Hickey Guest

    -= ®atzofratzo =- <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:21:32 -0400, Sheldon Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>My dad's Ercoupe had no rudder, but had two vertical stabilizers in back. I liked this, 'cause it
    >>meant I could fly it. I never ran into that problem, but, since I was only 6-9 years old, I didn't
    >>generally do any turning.
    >
    >I thought the Ercoupe had rudders but that they were linked to the aileron control? Otherwise it
    >couldn't make a coordinated turn without a rudder?

    Exactly. It's one of those things that sounds like a good idea (and was supposed to make flying
    simpler). But there are times when you really don't want the rudder doing what it does when it's
    linked to the ailerons like that (later years of the Scarecoop had traditional rudder pedals).

    Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
     
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