If ped's are so afraid of 'pavemnet cyclists' why do they walk in cycle paths?



As this thread seems to be going a little off target. Might
I suggest two possible explanations for this phenomena.

1) Pedestrians actually KNOW that cyclists pose minimal
danger to them and that most cyclists will go out of
their way to avoid colliding with a pedestrian. Hence
claims that pavement cycling is wrong are more to do with
feeling annoyed, disliking seeing some 'breaking the
rules', deep seated prejudices against cyclists as
members of a low status social out-group and so on rather
then any genuine concerns about safety. There is plenty
of research suggesting this: For example, http://www.dft-
.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_roads/documents/page/dft_roa-
ds_504728.hcsp

'Main Conclusions

* Observation revealed no real factors to justify excluding
cyclists from pedestrianised areas, suggesting that
cycling could be more widely permitted without detriment
to pedestrians;

Findings

Pedestrians change their behaviour in the presence of motor
vehicles, but not in response to cyclists.

Cyclists respond to pedestrian density, modifying their
speed, dismounting and taking other avoiding action where
necessary.

Accidents between pedestrians and cyclists were very
rarely generated in pedestrianised areas (only one
pedestrian/cyclist accident in 15 site years) in the
sites studied.'

The first finding is interesting. Consider how pedestrians
part like the Red Sea before Moses when a motor vehicle
drives through a pedestrianised area, even one doing so
illegally! It also suggest to me another explanation.
Perhaps pedestrians perceive motor vehicle users to be of a
high status and so feel compelled to 'keep out of the way'.
Drivers also feel themselves to be of a higher status and
expect others to 'get out of the way'.

However, many pedestrians (who are also quite possibly
drivers) feel that cyclists have a lower status then
themselves and so are loath to give way to them. Issues of
safety and so on are secondary. What really counts is the
perceived social pecking order!

Similarly, motorists often accuse cyclists as being
'arrogant'. Now as this means having a sense of self worth
not supported by reality, and the fact that many drivers
feel cyclists are almost non-human (look at all the
dehumanising and deindividuating terms used to describe
cyclists such as 'lycra lout', two wheeled terrorist', lycra
nazi' and so on), it follows that any cyclist who displays a
sense of self worth or who claims equality will be
definition be seen as being 'arrogant!
 
Howard wrote:
>
> 'Main Conclusions
>
> * Observation revealed no real factors to justify
> excluding cyclists from pedestrianised areas, suggesting
> that cycling could be more widely permitted without
> detriment to pedestrians; <snip>
>
> Cyclists respond to pedestrian density, modifying their
> speed, dismounting and taking other avoiding action where
> necessary.
>

My objection as a pedestrian whether in pedestrianised
areas, on the pavement is based on the following factors:

- if there are no cyclists I can relax and when the children
were younger, give them a bit of freedom rather than have
them walk next to me in case they darted in front of a
cyclist or were hit by one

- my experience of cyclists cycling in pedestrian areas is
that many do not moderate their speed to take account of
conditions. It may just be because its Cambridge with
students late for lectures, but quite a few go through the
pedestrianised area in the centre at quite high speeds
(leading to my having to keep an eye out all the time
especially if I have a child or two with me

- while cyclists have every right to use a shared used path
its a pity that using it as a pedestrian it is now much
rarer that I can walk side by side with someone and talk
without one of us encroaching on the cycle section.

For these reasons and others when cycling I do so on the
road, not the pavement or pedestrianised area.

Tony
 
P.s. With regards my 'status' hypothesis. It would be
interesting to know how those who feel justified in
obstructing or otherwise challenging 'pavement
cyclists' respond to other examples of rule breaking or
anti-social behaviour they see. I would suggest that if
they don't mind passing comment to cyclists, but don't
usually challenge litter droppers, those who smoke in
no smoking areas, drivers they see parking
inconsiderately etc. etc. then this adds weight to my
hypothesis. I wonder how many pedestrians deliberately
obstruct the passage of other pedestrians who, for
example, use the wrong side of a walkway in a railway
station or similar...

If only cyclists are habitually challenged then this
suggests that it is OK to challenge a cyclist because they
are considered to be of a low status and 'deserving' of
criticism, and perhaps even because it is perceived that
being of a low status they will meekly accept such
admonishment from one of their 'betters' whereas someone of
equal status might not be expected to respond so passively.
Similarly, I would suggest that law breaking drivers are
rarely challenged by pedestrians because they are seen as
being of a higher status and in turn drivers would respond
badly to being challenged by some they see of being of a
lower status.

I certainly have seen plenty of indignant reports from
drivers who say that cyclists they challenged for some petty
infraction became abusive or ignored them. I wonder how
those drivers would respond if a cyclist were to challenge
them in a similar manner. In my experience most drivers
certainly don't take such criticism well themselves!...
 
Howard wrote:

> You suggest that pedestrians would be justified in
> deliberately obstructing cyclists in order to prevent them
> using a cycle path marked on the footway, or perhaps even
> passing them on shared use paths, on the basis that this
> would prevent these paths being appropriated by cyclists.
> Do you think that cyclists should also attempt to reclaim
> the highways from motor vehicle users by riding three
> abreast or more in order to prevent car drivers from
> passing?

Plenty of places I can think of where this is the best
policy - but it is only necessary to ride one abreast
(correctly positioned) to prevent dangerous overtaking.

In the same way, I think peds should walk down the middle of
a shared path under 1.6m or so wide to make cyclists think
before passing them.

Colin McKenzie

--
The great advantage of not trusting statistics is that it
leaves you free to believe the damned lies instead!
 
Howard wrote:
> We all see half-witted rants about 'pavement cyclists'
> often claiming that this is 'dangerous'. However, why is
> it that pedestrians fear of cyclists seems to evaoporate
> when they want to use facilities supposedly set aside for
> cyclists? How come almost half the users of The National
> 'Cycle' Network are pedestrians? Why is it that
> pedestrians seem incapable of walking on the correct side
> of a segregated cycle/footpath? Why is it that most
> shared use paths are full of dog walkers seemingly
> oblivious of cyclists actually trying to get somewhere by
> using the path?

Perhaps the people who walk on cycle paths are different
people to the ones who complain about pavement cycling? Not
a great leap of logic...
 
P.s. With regards my 'status' hypothesis. It would be
interesting to know how those who feel justified in
obstructing or otherwise challenging 'pavement
cyclists' respond to other examples of rule breaking or
anti-social behaviour they see. I would suggest that if
they don't mind passing comment to cyclists, but don't
usually challenge litter droppers, those who smoke in
no smoking areas, drivers they see parking
inconsiderately etc. etc. then this adds weight to my
hypothesis. I wonder how many pedestrians deliberately
obstruct the passage of other pedestrians who, for
example, use the wrong side of a walkway in a railway
station or similar...

If only cyclists are habitually challenged then this
suggests that it is OK to challenge a cyclist because they
are considered to be of a low status and 'deserving' of
criticism, and perhaps even because it is perceived that
being of a low status they will meekly accept such
admonishment from one of their 'betters' whereas someone of
equal status might not be expected to respond so passively.
Similarly, I would suggest that law breaking drivers are
rarely challenged by pedestrians because they are seen as
being of a higher status and in turn drivers would respond
badly to being challenged by some they see of being of a
lower status.

I certainly have seen plenty of indignant reports from
drivers who say that cyclists they challenged for some petty
infraction became abusive or ignored them. I wonder how
those drivers would respond if a cyclist were to challenge
them in a similar manner. In my experience most drivers
certainly don't take criticism well themselves!...
 
> My objection as a pedestrian whether in pedestrianised
> areas, on the pavement is based on the following
> factors...

> Tony

I see where you are coming from here. Thing is it seems to
me that the attitudes some cyclists might express towards
pedestrians (i.e that they should 'get out of the way') stem
directly from the attitudes cyclists themselves experience
from drivers. (And often those expecting cyclists to 'get
out of the way' when they are driving are often the same
people who become indignant if they feel a cyclist is
expecting them to give way when they are out walking!).

Your points about not been able to relax when sharing space
with cyclists and the difficulty encountered if one wishes
to walk two abreast are well made. However, this is also
exactly the same situation that now exists on the roads. It
is now almost impossible to ride on the road and feel
relaxed. Also in my experience many drivers have now become
totally intolerant of meeting groups of cyclists and feel
they have suffered a great injustice if they even have to
slow down before passing. Some just drive straight at you
expecting you to 'get out of the way' or be thrown over the
front of their car.

It seems impossible to address the problems of 'pavement
cycling', be this cyclists and pedestrians being forced
to share paths, or cyclists choosing to ride on
footpaths, without addressing the real cause of all this:
the appropriation of the public road by the users of
motor vehicles and the discourtesy shown by many drivers
towards cyclists.

As you suggest it must be made possible for cyclists to feel
safe and relaxed when using the road and to be able to ride
in a group free of intimidation. Perhaps the only way to
achieve this, given the seeming impossibilities of changing
driver attitudes and behaviour, is to deny drivers access to
a large part of the road network. Given the number of people
they kill and maim, and the fact that using the public road
is supposedly a privilege controlled through licence, not a
right, I would have thought that by now drivers would have
lost all moral claim to be allowed to use the public road.
Address this root problem and the much more minor 'problem'
of 'pavement cyclists' would disappear.
 
>Doki
>
> Perhaps the people who walk on cycle paths are different
> people to the ones who complain about pavement cycling?
> Not a great leap of logic...

So what we are saying is the sort of people who wander down
the 'cycle' part of segregated cycle/footpaths, whilst
lacking a little commonsense and courtesy, at least have a
sense of perspective and might even be the sort of people
who speak out about REAL problems, such as the carnage on
our roads, or the number of pedestrians killed and maimed by
car drivers on pedestrian crossings.

On the other hand most of those who troll on cycling threads
about issues such as 'pavement cyclists' are an
unrepresentative minority of cyclephobe authoritarians/
hierarchists (or least individuals who sit somewhere on the
right) who are upset by seeing members of a low status out-
group 'breaking the rules' and who can be quitened by simply
erecting signs calling a footpath a cycle path?

Makes sense!
 
On 12 Jun 2004 23:43:25 -0700, Howard <[email protected]> wrote:
> P.s. With regards my 'status' hypothesis. It would be
> interesting to know how those who feel justified in
> obstructing or otherwise challenging 'pavement
> cyclists' respond to other examples of rule breaking
> or anti-social behaviour they see.

I challenge when it is likely not to lead to an assault on
me. I have certainly challenged litter droppers and smokers
in no-smoking areas in the past.

--
Andy Leighton => [email protected] "The Lord is my
shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_
 
On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 00:06:39 +0100, "Doki" <[email protected]>
wrote in message <[email protected]>:

>Perhaps the people who walk on cycle paths are different
>people to the ones who complain about pavement cycling? Not
>a great leap of logic...

In much the same way as those who complain that cycling is
dangerous and helmets must be worn, are rarely cyclists
themselves? Seems plausible.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University
 
Tony Raven wrote:

> - while cyclists have every right to use a shared used
> path its a pity that using it as a pedestrian it is now
> much rarer that I can walk side by side with someone and
> talk without one of us encroaching on the cycle section.

The obvious solution to this bit is to not paint the line.
Of course if is it busy you cannot expect to walk abreast in
any case, but when quiet, there seems no harm in it - either
from the cyclist or pedestrian POV. The DOT does seem to
adhere firmly to the view that pedestrians and cyclists can
generally mix without problems.

James
 
Howard wrote:
>> Doki
>>
>> Perhaps the people who walk on cycle paths are different
>> people to the ones who complain about pavement cycling?
>> Not a great leap of logic...
>
>
>
> So what we are saying is the sort of people who wander
> down the 'cycle' part of segregated cycle/footpaths,
> whilst lacking a little commonsense and courtesy, at least
> have a sense of perspective and might even be the sort of
> people who speak out about REAL problems, such as the
> carnage on our roads, or the number of pedestrians killed
> and maimed by car drivers on pedestrian crossings.
>
> On the other hand most of those who troll on cycling
> threads about issues such as 'pavement cyclists' are an
> unrepresentative minority of cyclephobe authoritarians/
> hierarchists (or least individuals who sit somewhere on
> the right) who are upset by seeing members of a low status
> out-group 'breaking the rules' and who can be quitened by
> simply erecting signs calling a footpath a cycle path?
>
> Makes sense!

No, that's not what I said. I think poeple wandering down
cycle paths are idiots, and think the same of people who
ride down the pavement. People who walk in cycle paths may
or may not give a toss about road casualties (which are
pretty low here compared to the rest of the world, despite
the govt's best efforts). People who moan about people
cycling on the pavement might just be people who don't want
to dodge people on bikes, and realise that it's safer to
ride on the road. I'd no more cycle on the pavement than
drive my car on it.
 
Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 00:06:39 +0100, "Doki"
> <[email protected]> wrote in message <2j1gaiFs1saeU1@uni-
> berlin.de>:
>
>> Perhaps the people who walk on cycle paths are different
>> people to the ones who complain about pavement cycling?
>> Not a great leap of logic...
>
> In much the same way as those who complain that cycling is
> dangerous and helmets must be worn, are rarely cyclists
> themselves? Seems plausible.

It's not difficult for a few people to make an
unrepresentative amount of noise IMO. Think how many people
actually give a toss either way on helmet compulsion as a
%age of the population, but BHIT / Martlew set about a
private members bill anyway. Then think about how many
people would say they wanted out of the EU if you asked
them, but bugger all's been said about that because the
media generally dismisses it as a xenophobic idea and anyone
who makes vague noises about it in Parliament is made to
look a nutter in the papers.
 
On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 12:01:26 +0100, "Doki" <[email protected]>
wrote in message <[email protected]>:

>Then think about how many people would say they wanted out
>of the EU if you asked them

IMO that, too, is a small and vocal minority.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University
 
Howard wrote:
>
> As you suggest it must be made possible for cyclists to
> feel safe and relaxed when using the road and to be able
> to ride in a group free of intimidation.

I feel safe and relaxed cycling on the road. I'm no more at
risk than when walking. The problem is that people are led
to believe its dangerous needing special protective ghettos
to cycle in and special protective gear to wear. No wonder
they think they ought to be scared.

Tony
 
>Doki

>People who walk in cycle paths may or may not give a toss
>about road casualties (which are pretty low here compared
>to the rest of the world, despite the govt's best efforts).

In fact the UK casualty rate for serious injuries is very
average when compared to other European countries. The UK
death and serious injury rates for vulnerable road users,
such as children and cyclists, are just about the worst in
Europe. Death rates far car occupants are below the European
average but then again we have some of the best post crash
emergency services in the world. The BMC has estimated that
as much as one third the reduction in road deaths in recent
years has been due to improvements in post crash care. Also
in countries such as France many crashes are single vehicle
ones related to excessive speed, with such excessive speed
being encouraged by the very many 'quiet' rural roads in
France. Just look at comparable areas in the UK such as
Lincolnshire and parts of Scotland. Their death rates are up
to ten time the UK average.

It is also very important to note that it cannot be
claimed that our roads are 'safe' purely on the basis of
casualty figures. The biggest reason the casualty figures
(rather then rates based on exposure) for groups like
cyclists are lower in the UK then many European countries
is that our roads are actually so dangerous, very few
cyclists dare use them!

I know what you mean about the feebleness with which the
'Government' addresses road safety issues, what with it
giving drivers licence to speed anywhere there isn't a
bright yellow box by the side of the road, refusing to
introduce lower 'European' drink drive limits and refusing
to give the police powers to do random tests on drivers for
drink and drugs etc.

To take France again there the Government has taken real
action to reduce levels of speeding and drink driving, using
covert cameras, banning the use of radar detectors, random
tests for drink-driving and so on. The result? In the last
set of year on year figures road killings in France have
fallen from over 7300 to 5400. This shows what can be
achieved when the Government isn't running scared of the
motor lobby as the UK 'Government' is...