I'm sick of finishing 4th in time trials

Discussion in 'Power Training' started by gspo13, May 16, 2012.

  1. gspo13

    gspo13 New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2011
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ok, I'm already a semi decent tester. I know this as I'm regularly finishing in the top 5 of my local 10. My winter training program was all criterium based but ive taken a love for testing So now all I'm looking for is some inspiration and some expertise about a weekly 10 mile TT training plan to give me that edge. As well as preparation advice two weeks prior to a major race on a fast course. Im all sorted when it comes to bike and equipment, just need you guys make me go from good to great. Im a 21 minute man but I want to be a 19 minute man Please help
     
    Tags:


  2. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2005
    Messages:
    6,723
    Likes Received:
    126
    FWIW. Two minutes seems like a lot of time to shave off if you are as fit as you think you are-or-can-be ...

    ... basically, if you are optimally fit & theoretically competitive then 'my' recommendation is that you get more aero in your riding position.

    What chainring combination are you using?

    How long are your crank arms?

    How tall are you?

    What size bike frame are you riding (post a pic ... I am presuming that it is a TT bike -- if not, then get one!) .

    Not to state the obvious, but some people can never be faster or jump higher than the next guy regardless of how much training they do or how much desire they have.
     
  3. gspo13

    gspo13 New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2011
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    0
    Alfeng, would firstly like to know what FWIW means :-/

    You asked some good questions that I had not considered before. I think im fairly as areo as I could be.

    Im 5'8" (176cm tall)
    I ride a Giant TCR TT bike with FFWRD disc and tri-spoke with continental sprinter tyres. It has a 54 tooth durace time trial chainring (dont need to bother you with the small do I as i never use it). i have a skinsuit and TT helmet....i know i could tinker a little bit with the front bars and reach etc.

    However, as you said 2 minutes is a lot of time, and i know nothing like that will come over night...if 19 minutes is indeed a feesable goal. i would say then that i woudl be happy with being an mid 20 minute man :)

    i think my largest concern is that i dont have much knowledge in terms of TT specific training. what stuff should I be doing to get my good road racing legs in to great time trials legs. I see on hear about doing 3x20min intervals or 4x15 min intervals etc, but then i hear that alex dowsett does 6x1min intervals at above LT (100-110%) a few days leading into an event.

    im more than likely going to bin the road racing scene off and concentrate soley on TT 10 and maybe a 25 or two
    so............... i need some TT specific training what should i really be doing and when, and also what is the physiology behind this

    thanks in advance
     
  4. danfoz

    danfoz Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2011
    Messages:
    2,432
    Likes Received:
    92
    Hopefully some of the heavy hitters will respond but the longer intervals are usually the bread and butter of the TT. Personally I would keep the mimimum at 20 mins, maybe even bump them up to 30mins. People respond differently and some do better pulling up FTP with high intensity vs. pushing it up with subthreshold work. A lot of it is trial and error and your how body responds to any particular set of workouts.

    (For What Its Worth).
     
  5. LT Intolerant

    LT Intolerant New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2006
    Messages:
    136
    Likes Received:
    0
    This was plucked from a post by Bill Black on another wattage forum. Bill is a world class masters racer and coach.


    Bill Black on TTs (2 days per week) - Thursdays and Sundays "I am a big believer in over-distance training for TTs -- if the TT will take 30min then train 40 or 45min and hold close to 95%+. Then in the time nearer to the event I shorten up the intervals and increase the intensity." "For me, the over-distance adds to my mental focus and confidence and when you add in the adrenaline of race day I find I almost invariably exceed my target wattage." week 1 = 1x35' plus 1x5' Tabata week 2 = 1x40' plus 1x7' Tabata week 3 = 1x30' plus 1x7' Tabata week 4 = 1x25' Not comprehensive but a very good framework IME. Hunter Allen sells an 8-week TT plan. I've never used it but I have used other plans he's created with good results. You might also ping Dave Ryan, another world class coach, who frequently posts nuggets on this forum. http://home.trainingpeaks.com/training-and-nutrition-plans/featured-authors/hunter-allen.aspx
     
  6. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2005
    Messages:
    6,723
    Likes Received:
    126
    'I' just think that a ~10% improvement is a lot to expect.

    BTW. Longer crank arms could be beneficial ...

    By MY calculation, a 5mm increase in the crankarm length will provide approximately a 2.5% increase in leverage which would subsequently allow you to use a marginally higher gear ratio IF are able maintain your riding position.

    • theoretically & alternatively, that also translates as the rider needing marginally less effort for the same gearing & cadence at any given moment in time
     
  7. swampy1970

    swampy1970 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2008
    Messages:
    10,057
    Likes Received:
    185
    If you want to beat a 21 then head on over to Tarleton or upto Leavens :p Do they still have the midweek 10s on Tarleton? There are no easy ways to go faster but you're either going to be dealing with pacing, power or aero. If you have a powermeter then pacing and power are easy to monitor. Power wise in training you should be doing some VO2 efforts on your TT bike - think 5 minute efforts, well paced but done at a very hard effort. Recover fully between efforts - so at least 10 minutes of trundling around at under 18 mph. Try using different gears for these efforts - you might think a particular pedalling style seems easier but the results might show something different. Some shorter 1 or 2 minute efforts as well as flat out 30 second efforts in race position bring the speed up nicely. The 30 second efforts should be absolutely flat out but try and keep the rpms the same ballpark as you race at. Pacing - its tough but you really don't want to be going at full 10 TT pace within the first minute. Seconds "lost" at the start are more than recouped at the end. Your warm up should be longer than the TT and should include at least a few minutes above threshold. If you're aiming to ride on fast courses then doing some of your training on fast roads helps get you used to riding at the speeds you'll be racing at. Aero: No mitts Lycra shoe covers Try different aero helmets (borrow ones from friends and test) Aero bar width is important - at a minimum they should shadow the legs. Aero bar tilt - use a power meter to test if you have one or coast down tests if you don't. Use the correct width tires on aero wheels. Most HED wheels do best with Conti tubs (22mm), most Zipp test faster with their own 21mm tire. HED 3 requires 19mm. By all means use different brands etc but use a similar width. Aero trumps rolling resistance by a large margin.
     
    dhk2 likes this.
  8. lanierb

    lanierb New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2004
    Messages:
    495
    Likes Received:
    2
    Well you're going awfully fast for someone who doesn't know how to train. The problem with that is it's hard for all of us to give you advice when you're already a bunch faster than us.

    My advice:

    (1) Get a coach. I would bet a lot of money that a coach can get you 1 minute out of additional fitness.

    (2) Go to a wind tunnel. You're already fast. To find the subtle changes that will make you a little faster you need good data and that requires a wind tunnel.


    Edit: One more thing (3) You're giving away a little time with those tires. Here's a link to some comprehensive Crr tests for tires:

    http://www.biketechreview.com/tires_old/images/AFM_tire_testing_rev9.pdf

    Pick something for your races that has a low Crr (Vittoria and Veloflex are common choices). They will flat more easily but will make you faster. A decrease in Crr from 0.0035 to 0.0025 will save you roughly 40s per hour (under a bunch of reasonable assumptions about road condition etc).
     
  9. SteveI

    SteveI New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2010
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree with others, getting from 21 to 19 is a big ask. I did 20:39 around 6 months after starting serious cycling training. It has now been almost 2 years since I did that, and I have only reduced my time to 20:08. If you're talking about getting from 21:01 to 19:59, it's definitely not impossible, but you haven't said much about what training you've been doing so far.

    Top 5 is a great result, I was only 9th when I did my 20:08. Are you riding slow courses to finish so high up with 21 minutes? Perhaps a trip up the M6 to L1015?
     
  10. swampy1970

    swampy1970 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2008
    Messages:
    10,057
    Likes Received:
    185
    Pray tell - where did you get that "guestimate" of time saving from? The guy that sold you your current tires?
     
  11. swampy1970

    swampy1970 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2008
    Messages:
    10,057
    Likes Received:
    185
    Dude - he asked what FWIW meant and you came out with that... At least you didn't mention Campy Brifters :p

    GSPO - FWIW = For What It's Worth.

    Alf - Longer cranks might allow you to generate a bit more torque but at the end of the day power is power. There's been a fair few tests and even maximal tests (ie short sprint) show there's little difference between what you can crank out (pun intended) with 150mm cranks and 180mm...
     
  12. lanierb

    lanierb New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2004
    Messages:
    495
    Likes Received:
    2
    Your channeling your inner Old Guy, Swampy. Don't use quotes if you're not quoting someone.

    The answer is that it was a precise calculation based on sound fundamentals. Here are the calculations: CdA=0.23, Rho=1.2, CRR=0.0035, Power=385watts, on a flat road your speed will be almost exactly 30mph. Leaving everything the same and moving CRR to 0.0025 will result in a speed of 30.34mph which will save you exactly 40 seconds per hour.

    Now, note two things: (1) at slower speeds the faster tires will save you even more time. At 25mph they will save you 60 seconds per hour.
    (2) Just because the tires test at 0.0025 (or 0.0035) doesn't mean you will get that on a real road because real roads are usually bumpy.
    In practice you will get a CRR a bit higher than that. However, all the tests that I have seen strongly suggest that the increase is approximately
    equal for all tires for a given road. So, if one tire tests at CRR=0.0025 on a smooth road and 0.0040 on a bumpy one, then another tire that tests at
    0.0035 on a smooth road, will typically test at 0.0050 on the bumpy one. Thus my time savings calcs above won't be affected by the bumpiness of the road.

    Finally, this savings is real. I've seen it over and over again in practice.
     
  13. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2005
    Messages:
    6,723
    Likes Received:
    126
    Some things now go without saying ... except as occasional reminders! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif
    Regardless, I guess that it didn't occur to me that he could simply be asking what 'FWIW' meant.

    Unfortunately, other than my next breath, torque is too often all I seem to be concerned about when I'm grinding along on mountain roadways. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/frown.gif
     
Loading...
Loading...