IMPORTANT: Off road use of vehicles

  • Thread starter Michael Farthin
  • Start date



"Nick Hopton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In a recent message <[email protected]>, Andrew Kay
> <[email protected]> wrote.
>
> [...]
> >I haven't seen any objective independent research that substantiates that 4WD vehicles cause
> >significant, widespread damage to the surface of
byways.
> >I guess you must have seen some to be able to make the statement that you have. Can you please
> >quote the relevant references, so that I can look
it

> By all means, have a look at: http://www.hopton.dsl.pipex.com/4WD/4WD2.jpg

It's a single photograph of a very wet lane. So?

Cheers Andrew Kay
 
"RJ Webb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 22:48:05 +0000, James Grabowski
> >I'd be happier for 4x4's to only be allowed off road, or short journeys to get off road. As it is
> >walkers cause more damage to paths and tracks than 4x4 users do, just because there's so many
> >more of us.
>
> Fortunately we dont...
>
> Do you know what erodes the most paths in the Highlands? Walkers thats who, four legged walkers,
> some with bloody great antlers. And they dont stick to one or two routes up Munros.

D'you reckon that unsealed tracks in the Highlands of Scotland are in any better condition that
those in England & Wales?

Cheers Andrew Kay
 
"Tim Jones" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 23:13:57 GMT, [email protected] (RJ Webb) wrote:
>
> >On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 22:32:50 +0000, Paul Rooney <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 20:26:21 -0000, "Bernie Hughes" <[email protected]> wrote:

> >>>It's a serious point none-the-less. Cars are designed to be driven on
roads.
> >>Some cars are designed to be driven off-road.
> >
> >Sadly the Off-road is not designed to be driven on
> But we all used to travel on the off-road until some great wuss invented the road ;)

Unsealed byways are roads - not "off road". They just haven't been defiled with the black
sticky stuff.

Cheers Andrew Kay
 
Tell it to the horse riders Nick !

"Nick Hopton" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> In a recent message <[email protected]>, Bob Hobden
> <[email protected]> wrote.
>
> [...]
> >All those that use the countryside have to get along, we have to talk, we have to compromise.
> [...]
>
> Wouldn't it be nice if we could? But honestly, Bob, you've seen the mess that 4WDs can make of
> byways like The Ridgeway, even though there is an existing, agreed code of responsible use that is
> supposed to apply there.
>
> I've asked this before of 4WD enthusiasts and I'll ask it again of you. Why do your people have
> to render the whole width of a byway impassible to walkers? I only need half a metre of path at
> the edge to get through, why do the 4WD people have to destroy the surface of the whole width of
> the byway?
>
> >Remember the phrase " divide and conquer" so who is trying to drive a
wedge
> >between groups interested in countryside access? Who will gain from a
closed
> >countryside?
>
> I don't think there is concerted effort by any organisation to set walker against 4WD-enthusiast
> with the object of restricting access to the countryside for everyone. For myself, I can't see how
> an idea like that could work.
>
> We have to face it, I'm afraid, codes of responsible use, et cetera, just don't seem to work when
> it comes to 4WD-enthuseasts. The only conclusion that can be drawn is that the interests of
> walkers are fundamentally incompatible with those of the 4WD-community. This being the case I
> don't think that I, as a walker, have any option but to support moves to restrict the access of
> recreational vehicles to byways.
>
> I (sincerely) regret this, but there doesn't seem to be any other way, everything has been tried
> and nothing works.
>
> Regards, Nick.
>
> --
> Nick Hopton and Anne Hopton Caversham, Reading, England <[email protected]
 
Following up to Peter Browning

>The RA have always wanted 100% of the RoW network exclusively.

Yes, I feel we should identify a network that could be used by 4x4 and at same time crack down on
noisy yobs on bikes.

I think one reason this is harder to achieve in UK than say Spain is mud. A 4x4 just passes by on
hard Spanish surfaces, not so here :-( My experience of walking the paths of SE England is that its
not 4x4s that makes lanes impassable, its horses and farm machinery.
--
Mike Reid "Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso Walking, Wasdale, Thames path, London
etc "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site Spain, food and walking "http://www.fell-
walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap
 
Following up to RJ Webb

>And the locals out of work.... City pavements is not such as stupid idea, some interesting walking
>in cities. especially London.

Ive been exploring the Thames side paths recently and finding it interesting, rewarding walking.
Nothing like hillwalking, but interesting in a completly different way.

>Trouble is pavements tend to be blocked by 4x4 Tonkas that should be ploughing up the Ridgeway..
>You cannot win

At least we dont have Hummers!
--
Mike Reid "Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso Walking, Wasdale, Thames path, London
etc "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site Spain, food and walking "http://www.fell-
walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap
 
Following up to Bernie Hughes

>It's a serious point none-the-less. Cars are designed to be driven on roads. Roads are designed to
>have cars driven on them. The fact that advertising geeks give their vehicles camp/macho labels
>like '4x4' and show them in action in the Sahara or whatever doesn't really change that.

4x4s are designed to be driven on *unsurfaced roads*, if you go to somewhere like Spain its a
routine thing. The problem for the 4x4 enthusiast is that UK has hardly any unsurfaced roads.

>The idea that restricting people from playing Action Man on forest tracks is the first step in
>attempting to cut down access for all other activities is laughable. Landowners generally base
>their whole argument on the claim that increased access will lead to irresponsible behaviour,
>increased damage and pollution. Hammering around the countryside like Rambo is a perfect example of
>just that. It's selfish, noisy, damaging to the environment and highly intrusive.

In Spain the "forestals" are routinely used by 4x4s, often to get to the start of walks, theres
generally little Rambo stuff, just getting the family to a barbecue spot. Its only noisy and
intrusive when the vehicles (usually bikes) are unsilenced. I used a lot of these on my recent
trip and the few farmers I met were happy to see me, its a whole different culture and geography
I suppose.
--
Mike Reid "Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso Walking, Wasdale, Thames path, London
etc "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site Spain, food and walking "http://www.fell-
walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap
 
Following up to RJ Webb

>>>It's a serious point none-the-less. Cars are designed to be driven on roads.
>>
>>Some cars are designed to be driven off-road.
>
>Sadly the Off-road is not designed to be driven on

Well, yes and no. *Nothing* was designed for us to use. Roads used to be unsurfaced. In UK most are
now surfaced and most cars are designed for that surface (even though a lot of idiots buy 4x4s for
all the wrong reasons). True off road is another issue, no doubt there are farmers with low incomes
who are converting to "off road experience" playgrounds. Walkers cause very unsightly erosion in the
ELD but we see ourselves as largely above criticism as we have the mental superioroty of the
unpowered. Its the same with city cyclists who think they are above traffic laws because they
produce no emmissions.
--
Mike Reid "Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso Walking, Wasdale, Thames path, London
etc "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site Spain, food and walking "http://www.fell-
walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap
 
>Wow an authentic ancient roadway :)
>
>Thats almost exactly like it would have been in the good old days, when it was used for the daily
>passage of drovers and livestock, horses and carts etc etc.......... That's why they came to be so
>wide, people used to avoid the puddles in days gone by as well!!!
>
>It.s far more historically accurate than a nice, green grassy footpath ;)

They could do that then.. Now we are enclosed and there is nowhere to go to hide from the ruts.

A good point though.. Look at a hillside in soft rock country near a road.. loads of parallel
gullies.. As soon as one got worn out, a new route was taken, I wonder how old some of them are.

A good example is the south side of Dinmore Hill, Herefordshire. Uphill of the modern A49 are loads
of very deep gullies, from older roads. The Old "road" must have been 200m wide there.

Richard Webb
 
>D'you reckon that unsealed tracks in the Highlands of Scotland are in any better condition that
>those in England & Wales?
>
>Cheers Andrew Kay

If by unsealed you mean unsurfaced, yes.. They are not driven on... the landowners see to that. The
old drove roads are usually a pleasure to travel. If driven on without laying a surface they would
soon become useless to all of us. The bog would see to that.

There is of course a vast network of non bituminised roads in the Highlands.. These are again all
locked off by the Landowners, and would easily take a fair bit of usage - ideal for your purpose..
but then we world still have the smell and the noise.

Very few green lanes open to vehicles there, just a handful like the Corrieyairack

Richard Webb
 
O
>But we all used to travel on the off-road until some great wuss invented the road ;)
I think then, few travelled far at all. And if so, mostly on foot. Mind, see the above post about
the gullies... But they would have taken many lifetimes to form, Engines have changed the rules.

Then again, for a few hundred years we had a very boring straight road network.

Richard Webb
 
>Walkers cause very unsightly erosion in the ELD but we see ourselves as largely above criticism as
>we have the mental superioroty of the unpowered. Its the same with city cyclists who think they are
>above traffic laws because they produce no emmissions.

I dont get that argument at all.

Walker erosion: CAused by walkers, you are comparing erosion by us being there and a prelapsarian
state where we are not there. Now a 4x4 driver is there, just like the walker.. so surely the
comparison should be between the damage done by one walker and one vehicle.

Other than rationing by price, there is no reason why 60000 of us should not all take to the green
lanes in "Chelsea Tractors" Please compare like with like.

If you compare us with not us, then we can compare vehicle with not vehicle, which implies that
neither of us should be there. Not a helpful line to follow for either of us.

Richard Webb
 
>Unsealed byways are roads - not "off road". They just haven't been defiled with the black
>sticky stuff.

Fair point

Richard Webb
 
Following up to RJ Webb

>There is of course a vast network of non bituminised roads in the Highlands.. These are again all
>locked off by the Landowners, and would easily take a fair bit of usage - ideal for your purpose..
>but then we world still have the smell and the noise.

these are probably equivalent of what everybody uses in Spain and that we cannot access here.
--
Mike Reid "Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso Walking, Wasdale, Thames path, London
etc "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site Spain, food and walking "http://www.fell-
walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap
 
"RJ Webb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> There is of course a vast network of non bituminised roads in the Highlands.. These are again all
> locked off by the Landowners, and would easily take a fair bit of usage - ideal for your purpose..
> but then we world still have the smell and the noise.
>
> Very few green lanes open to vehicles there, just a handful like the Corrieyairack

The road over the Corrieyairack Pass isn't "open to vehicles". It's been blocked at its western end
since the mid 90s.

Cheers Andrew Kay
 
Following up to RJ Webb

>>Walkers cause very unsightly erosion in the ELD but we see ourselves as largely above criticism as
>>we have the mental superioroty of the unpowered. Its the same with city cyclists who think they
>>are above traffic laws because they produce no emmissions.
>
>
>I dont get that argument at all.

I'm thinking about the holier than thou attitiude of some walkers and climbers, it has nothing to do
with how much damage one vehicle/one walker does really.
--
Mike Reid "Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso Walking, Wasdale, Thames path, London
etc "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site Spain, food and walking "http://www.fell-
walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap
 
In a recent message <[email protected]>, Paul Rooney
<[email protected]> wrote.

[...]
>>By all means, have a look at:
>>
>>http://www.hopton.dsl.pipex.com/4WD/4WD2.jpg
>>
>>and then tell me that 4WDs don't do widespread damage the surface of byways.
>>
>>Regards, Nick.
>
>It's just a muddy track. In what way has it been damaged?

Paul, this isn't just any section of muddy old track, it's a part of The Ridgeway.

Regards, Nick.

--
Nick Hopton and Anne Hopton Caversham, Reading, England <[email protected]
 
"Nick Hopton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In a recent message <[email protected]>, Paul Rooney
> <[email protected]> wrote.

> >>http://www.hopton.dsl.pipex.com/4WD/4WD2.jpg and then tell me that 4WDs don't do widespread
> >>damage the surface of
> >
> >It's just a muddy track. In what way has it been damaged?
>
> Paul, this isn't just any section of muddy old track, it's a part of The Ridgeway.

The URL was posted in response to a request from myself for information about any *independent*
research that showed that 4x4 vehicles caused significant widespread damage to the surface of
byways. The link is to a single photograph of an obviously very wet lane. Is a single photo with the
words "Campaign Green Lane" at the top really the nearest you can get to independent research?

If all that is required to *prove* some point is to provide a link to a photo or two - then have a
look at these.

http://www.byways.org.uk/Images2/Dcp_2329r463.jpg

http://www.byways.org.uk/Images2/Dcp_6260r700.jpg

http://www.byways.org.uk/Images2/Tractor6r700.jpg

http://www.byways.org.uk/Images2/Dscn1529r700.jpg

Do these *prove* that all damaqe to byways is caused by agricultural vehicles? No - of course they
don't - at least not any more (nor any less) than your single photo of The Ridgeway. Having said
that, the last of these is quite interesting. The photographer is clearly standing on a muddy,
rutted byway. It continues through the gate on the right. The one on the left is merely an access to
a farmers field. So - did recreational 4x4s cause this damage? Hands up those who think so .........
:))

Cheers Andrew Kay
 
>The road over the Corrieyairack Pass isn't "open to vehicles". It's been blocked at its western end
>since the mid 90s.

Was pretty busy with traffic when I was there in July last year. A big convoy of Landrovers. No real
bother there, it was a road! Horrid thing to walk on.

There seem to be some old roads in the Highlands that have been closed under dubious circumstances.
The one from Loch More to Loch Hope in Sutherland comes to mind. That was a public road once, but is
blocked by the estate now.

Richard Webb
 
>I'm thinking about the holier than thou attitiude of some walkers and climbers,

And the problem is?

Sorry but I do honestly feel that a foot traveller is superior to one who bruises the hill
with a ton of stinking metal. We all hit and hurt the hill, the holiest is the one who hits
the most softly.

I will never forget seeing a foul erosion scar on Lugnaquilla, last year. It was not there on the
way up, but the result of 5 minutes work by a pair of neds on trail bikes.

Hardly any walker damage at all up there, and there were 30 of us up there at that time. We would
all need to work hard to match the damage done by those two.

Richard Webb