IMPORTANT: Off road use of vehicles

  • Thread starter Michael Farthin
  • Start date



"Nick Hopton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:p[email protected]...

> But a ban isn't what I want if some other arrangements for
> peaceful coexistence can be found. I keep saying it, but
> in my case all I'm looking for is a metre-wide strip along
> the edge of the path to walk on. Be fair, this isn't too
> much to ask for.

No, it isn't - although there may be other possible
solutions too. Unfortunately, Alun Michael refuses to see
LARA to discuss them.

> One aspect of all this we haven't touched on, BTW, is that
> now the yuppie-jeep bubble has burst joke-4WDs are
> thundering down-market with tremendous velocity. It seems
> inevitable that soon a fair number of these will end up
> trafficking byways, driven by the irresponsible or the
> clueless. Something else to think about.

One approach that I have heard suggested as a means of
controlling motorised usage is a system of authorisation -
whereby only those who sign-on to the driver's codes of
conduct of LARA member organisations such as GLASS (Green
Lane Association), AWDC (All Wheel Drive Club) or the TRF
(Trail Riders Fellowship) would be allowed access.

In principle, if a motorist did not display an authorisation
permit, he would be guilty of an offence for passing a TRO
"Except for authorised users" sign. Highway Authorities
would have to decide which routes were sufficiently
sensitive to require such a TRO - but I don't think they'd
need that many.

Whilst I've mixed feelings about that kind of approach, I
think it does have the merit of at least trying not to
condemn the responsible along with the illegal,
irresponsible and clueless. It could also tend to keep
the marginals in line too, lest they have their
authorisation removed.

> Reading what I've written, I see that my demands are
> increasing. At one time I was only asking for half a metre
> to get through <g>.

I rather think it would be simpler & cheaper for the
Highway Authorities to repair the short sections that are
out of repair.

Cheers Andrew Kay
 
In a recent message <[email protected]
berlin.de>, Bob Hobden <[email protected]> wrote.

[...]
>> By all means, have a look at:
>>
>> http://www.hopton.dsl.pipex.com/4WD/4WD2.jpg
>>
>> and then tell me that 4WDs don't do widespread damage the
>> surface of byways.
>>
>So where is that mess Nick?

I swiped that picture from the RA magazine where it says
that the location was the Ridgeway at Gore Hill, on the
Berkshire Downs. It also says that the picture was taken in
December, 2002.

Regards, Nick.

--
Nick Hopton and Anne Hopton Caversham, Reading, England
<[email protected]
 
In a recent message <[email protected]>,
Andrew Kay <[email protected]> wrote.

[...]
>One approach that I have heard suggested as a means of
>controlling motorised usage is a system of authorisation -
>whereby only those who sign-on to the driver's codes of
>conduct of LARA member organisations such as GLASS (Green
>Lane Association), AWDC (All Wheel Drive Club) or the TRF
>(Trail Riders Fellowship) would be allowed access.
>
>In principle, if a motorist did not display an
>authorisation permit, he would be guilty of an offence for
>passing a TRO "Except for authorised users" sign. Highway
>Authorities would have to decide which routes were
>sufficiently sensitive to require such a TRO - but I don't
>think they'd need that many.
[...]

I'd reached the conclusion myself that it would probably
have to be some form of licensing system.

>Whilst I've mixed feelings about that kind of approach, I
>think it does have the merit of at least trying not to
>condemn the responsible along with the illegal,
>irresponsible and clueless. It could also tend to keep
>the marginals in line too, lest they have their
>authorisation removed.

That's what would give the scheme teeth, the fact that if
they stepped out of line they'd get their permit torn up.

I think I know what you mean about having mixed feelings,
but I also think that if you don't give a little ground on
this issue then you'll loose it all. Perhaps it's too late,
in any case.

Our elected representatives will do almost anything to avoid
getting involved in single-issues, like this one. They have
the power to rip through neat, tidy party lines and generate
bitterness and resentment that lasts for years.

Regards, Nick.

--
Nick Hopton and Anne Hopton Caversham, Reading, England
<[email protected]
 
"Nick Hopton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In a recent message <[email protected]>,
> Andrew Kay <[email protected]> wrote.

> >One approach that I have heard suggested as a means of
> >controlling
motorised
> >usage is a system of authorisation
.
> I'd reached the conclusion myself that it would probably
> have to be some form of licensing system.

LARA have been mumbling about something similar for years.
Shame Alun Michael won't talk to them about it ......

Cheers Andrew Kay
 
By that argument the single track 'B' roads in the Peak
District are also unsuitable for recreational driving, even
the road to the stepping stones in Dove Dale can be deemed
unsuitable on a Bank Holiday Monday.

Also are the verges deemed suitable for 'townies' to park
their cars whilst they go for a walk?

Lots of roads in the Peak District are used for recreational
driving, e.g. the doddery old couple out for a Sunday drive
to look at the new born lambs etc.

Enforcing this law will also downgrade RUPPS, some of which
are tarmaced and used by thousands of vehicles a day, not to
mention access roads, I know of one which is a RUPP and the
only access to a crematorium, hang on I would rather NOT use
that one! So are they all to be downgraded acording to the
proposal yes!
--

Ted Ferenc. (http://www.ndrw.co.uk) This message, and any
attachment, is private and confidential. It is intended only
for the named addressee(s). "Simon Caldwell"
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 11:35:04 -0000, "Ted Ferenc"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Emergency vehicles, yes the 'can'
> >
> >But lots are voulnteers, e.g Raynet, mountain rescue,
> >they are members of the public and can't. Members of
> >Raynet have posted concern about this.
> >
> >Also access along the 'tracks' will also be banned for
> >farm vehicles
unless
> >the farmer has permision of all landowners of the track,
> >which will be impossible to obtain, assuming the
> >landowners can be found!
> >
>
> These are valid concerns and obviously need to be
> addressed. But they don't affect the main debate, as to
> whether it is appropriate for these lanes to be used for
> recreational motoring.
 
In a recent message <[email protected]>,
Andrew Kay <[email protected]> wrote.

[...]
>> I'd reached the conclusion myself that it would probably
>> have to be some form of licensing system.
>
>LARA have been mumbling about something similar for years.
>Shame Alun Michael won't talk to them about it ......
[...]

More than a shame. Has anyone asked him for a reason why he
won't, do you know?

Regards, Nick.

--
Nick Hopton and Anne Hopton Caversham, Reading, England
<[email protected]
 
"Nick Hopton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> >> I'd reached the conclusion myself that it would
> >> probably have to be
some
> >> form of licensing system.
> >
> >LARA have been mumbling about something similar for
> >years. Shame Alun Michael won't talk to them about
> >it ......
> [...]
>
> More than a shame. Has anyone asked him for a reason why
> he won't, do you know?

No, I do not know why. Maybe he's a member of RA or a mate
of JSP? See: http://www.laragb.org/scrap-book.html :)

Cheers Andrew Kay
 
Following up to RJ Webb

>But
>>that was before I learned to drive a car, and before I
>>realised just how big a menace I'd been.
>
>Surely you realise, no matter how crappy a cyclist you
>were, that you were competing with even worse drivers in
>vans and cars..

No, the bad cyclists are as bad as any.

>I'd rather tussle with you in **** cyclist (POB) mode than
>a lot of the tossers out there in cars.

Sure, that's exactly the smug cyclists attitude, I cant do
as much harm as a car so I can act like a complete ******.

>Rarely seen a cyclist who's a menace.. A PITA perhaps,
>especially the pavement prats, but not a menace.

Believe it or not, most drivers are very concerned about not
hitting cyclists, especially knowing they will probably be
blamed and therefore the majority of city cyclists ignoring
traffic regs, showing no lights and weaving about in vehicle
blindspots ARE a menace. I'm not saying there are not plenty
of wankers in cars but cyclists in cities need to take a
whole lot more responsibility on themselves.
--
Mike Reid "Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso
Walking, Wasdale, Thames path, London etc
"http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain, food and walking "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <--
dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap
 
Following up to RJ Webb

>>anybody to view walkers the way sanctimonious selfish
>>urban cyclists are regarded by many.
>
>I'm one of those too.... urc nutter on the loose here too!
>
>I hate the pavement yobs and red light runners as much as
>you, and I tell them, but comments like yours worry me.
>
>Remember every trip I make on a bike iso the car (yes
>having a bike does not disqualify one from driving) is one
>less spot in a queue, one more parking place. If you really
>want cyclists up your nose, force them into cars. Enjoy
>your jam!

My car does not disqualify me from cycling either! The jam
argument does not justify bad behaviour though, does it?

>Or do you mean those who disobey the rules.. Why not rant
>about law breakers

I frequently rant about various types of driver in
rec.driving, feel free to join in.:)

>instead of picking on cyclists who are generally a Good
>Thing. There are two sorts of road user - legal and
>criminal. Some criminals are on bikes , some in cars etc...
>Pick on the criminals. Generalise on behaviour not mode of
>transport.

When it comes to red light jumping, its the cyclists doing
it because they are largely above the law, although I
suspect there may have been a campaign against them as it
seems to have moderated.

>Red light runners are red light runners - the vehicle is
>only relevant in terms of the damage they do.

There you go again, we're not so bad because we probably
wont hurt anyone. Fancy being hit by a bike doing 30? My
wife has a bad back at the moment, walking is tough, she
would appreciate it if cyclists would wait at the light like
everyone else rather than swear and blow whistles.

>I have never been assaulted when driving, but had a lot of
>bother cycling.. Anti cycling rants facilitate this sort of
>behaviour, and its not always the "lycra lout" on the
>receiving end.

Ive been verbally assaulted by cyclists while walking and
while driving. One, a cycle courier who seemed to think he
had right of way over pedestrians, the other, a "lycra lout"
shouting abuse because I wasn't leaving enough room for him
to overtake above the speed limit!!! (there wasn't any room
without driving too close to parked cars). A cyclist
recently when down for a long term after knifing a driver he
thought had cut him up. There's bad in all types.
--
Mike Reid "Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso
Walking, Wasdale, Thames path, London etc
"http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain, food and walking "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <--
dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap
 
Following up to Bernie Hughes

> to the start of walks, theres generally little Rambo
> stuff, just
>> getting the family to a barbecue spot. Its only noisy and
>> intrusive when the vehicles (usually bikes) are
>> unsilenced. I used a lot of these on my recent trip and
>> the few farmers I met were happy to see me, its a whole
>> different culture and geography I suppose.
>
>A very restrained reply to an over-the-top post, sorry I'd
>had a long day at work.

It happens to all of us!

>I guess it is a cultural thing, in that I've never seen
>any 4*4 or other 'off-road' vehicle being used in a
>sensible manner.

I think it is a cultural thing, 4x4s are part of life in
spain.

>But I don't see how it can be denied that 1 vehicle has
>many times the ill-effects of 1 walker.

I agree. One of the issues in UK is our mud. In much of
Spain the 4x4 leaves little trace of its passing.
--
Mike Reid "Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso
Walking, Wasdale, Thames path, London etc
"http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain, food and walking "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <--
dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap
 
"The Reid" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Following up to Bernie Hughes
>
> > to the start of walks, theres generally little Rambo
> > stuff, just
> >> getting the family to a barbecue spot. Its only noisy
> >> and intrusive when the vehicles (usually bikes) are
> >> unsilenced. I used a lot of these on my recent trip and
> >> the few farmers I met were happy to see me, its a whole
> >> different culture and geography I suppose.

------------------------------------------------

Seems to me that most of the really deep ruts are made not
by 4x4s nor motorcycles...but by big tractors...have a look
next time no other vehicle could make these ruts!

Barry
 
"barry" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> Seems to me that most of the really deep ruts are made not
> by 4x4s nor motorcycles...but by big tractors...have a
> look next time no other vehicle could make these ruts!

The logic is pretty simple. A four (or more) wheeled vehicle
can make 2ft deep ruts only if it has 4ft diameter wheels.

Cheers Andrew Kay
 
Following up to Andrew Kay

>The logic is pretty simple. A four (or more) wheeled
>vehicle can make 2ft deep ruts only if it has 4ft
>diameter wheels.

<pedant mode> bigger in fact, bottom of diff or any lower
bodywork to edge of tyre is max. so for 2' ruts you might
need 5' wheels.
--
Mike Reid "Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso
Walking, Wasdale, Thames path, London etc
"http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain, food and walking "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <--
dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap
 
Following up to The Reid

>Why not rant about law breakers
>
>I frequently rant about various types of driver in
>rec.driving, feel free to join in.:)
>
>>instead of picking on cyclists who are generally a
>>Good Thing.

One thing I meant to say. I just sighed about bad cyclists
until they started lecturing motorists and started being
holier than thou with things like their "stop the city" type
demos, which incidentally only seem to happen in summer for
some reason. Militant cycling has to expect a reaction.

At the moment i'm driving across London four times a day
because my wife has a bad back, she cant drive or stand up
on public transport, as for cycling........
--
Mike Reid "Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso
Walking, Wasdale, Thames path, London etc
"http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain, food and walking "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <--
dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap
 
"Andrew Kay" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "barry" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > Seems to me that most of the really deep ruts are made
> > not by 4x4s nor motorcycles...but by big tractors...have
> > a look next time no other vehicle could make these ruts!
>
> The logic is pretty simple. A four (or more) wheeled
> vehicle can make 2ft deep ruts only if it has 4ft
> diameter wheels.
>
> Cheers Andrew Kay
>
About 25 years ago I bumped into a bloke in a pub at East
Hendred, near the Ridgeway. He'd been asked (didn't find out
by whom) to consider vehicle damage to the surface, and if
he could see any dramatic change over the 30 years he'd be
walking it. Guess what? His conclusion was that the current
level of surface damage was caused by farm machinery; 25
years ago!

Having said that, I've had off-roaders hurtle past me while
I was walking. If I hadn't stepped out of the way I'd have
been a statistic!
 
"Andrew Kay" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "barry" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > Seems to me that most of the really deep ruts are made
> > not by 4x4s nor motorcycles...but by big tractors...have
> > a look next time no other vehicle could make these ruts!
>
> The logic is pretty simple. A four (or more) wheeled
> vehicle can make 2ft deep ruts only if it has 4ft
> diameter wheels.
>
> Cheers Andrew Kay
>
About 25 years ago I bumped into a bloke in a pub at East
Hendred, near the Ridgeway. He'd been asked (didn't find out
by whom) to consider vehicle damage to the surface, and if
he could see any dramatic change over the 30 years he'd be
walking it. Guess what? His conclusion was that the current
level of surface damage was caused by farm machinery; 25
years ago!

Having said that, I've had off-roaders hurtle past me while
I was walking. If I hadn't stepped out of the way I'd have
been a statistic!
 
In a recent message
<[email protected]>, The Reid <dontuse@fell-
walker.co.uk> wrote.

[...]
>>The logic is pretty simple. A four (or more) wheeled
>>vehicle can make 2ft deep ruts only if it has 4ft
>>diameter wheels.

><pedant mode> bigger in fact, bottom of diff or any lower
>bodywork to edge of tyre is max. so for 2' ruts you might
>need 5' wheels.

But in practice the mechanism of rutting isn't that simple.
For a start, what do we mean when we talk about the depth of
rutting? Do we mean the depth of the rut measured from the
original level of the ground or do we mean the depth
measured from peak to trough? If it's peak to trough then it
is possible for a vehicle to create ruts deeper than half
the diameter of the wheel. But that's in theory and as I
mentioned, the mechanism isn't as simple as that.

Regards, Nick.

--
Nick Hopton and Anne Hopton Caversham, Reading, England
<[email protected]
 
"Nick Hopton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> But in practice the mechanism of rutting isn't that
> simple. For a start, what do we mean when we talk about
> the depth of rutting? Do we mean the depth of the rut
> measured from the original level of the ground or do we
> mean the depth measured from peak to trough? If it's peak
> to trough then it is possible for a vehicle to create ruts
> deeper than half the diameter of the wheel. But that's in
> theory and as I mentioned, the mechanism isn't as simple
> as that.

Forgetting for the moment any theoretical arguements, it's
got to be more likely that heavy vehicles that have 4ft
diameter wheels & which drive along an unsealed road every
day of the week create deep ruts than much lighter vehicles
that have much smaller wheels & only drive along the road
occasionally.

Cheers Andrew Kay .
 
"Simon Caldwell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >
> >Also, are there any crags that are currently accessed by
> >driving down a RUPP/BOAT? If vehicular rights are removed
> >this will impact on ALL users including climbers - not
> >just 4x4 drivers and motor cyclists. This could mean a
> >longer walk-in/out and less time spent climbing.
>
> Another advantage I'd not thought of, crags without
> queues :)
>
> >What about emergency vehicle access?
>
> They can drive anywhere they need to AFAIK

Indeed, but if the track is out of repair, would you like to
be in the back of the 4x4 ambulance that has to struggle
over ruts/rocks to get you out when injurred? I have been
out in a small group where at the bottom of the hill we have
been heavily critisised for taking four wheel drives and
then ending up taking one of the walkers to the main road as
they have heat exhaustion :(
>
> >If vehicular rights of way are not used they will
> >eventually become impassable.
>
> Yeah, right.

Oh yes, too right!

Why don't you look at this website.
http://www.byways.org.uk/
 
"Richard Webb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "I've not heard of any intimidating stuff going on. Off
> road motor vehicle users are being vocal because if we
> aren't then we will lose access to the countryside."
>
>
> No you will not... Welded to your Tonka Toy are you?
>
> Richard Webb

Err no actually. I drive a little Ford Escort. I don't think
I know anyone who drives Tonka Toys actually... I do now a
few farmers who drive nice shiny 4x4s and then get
critisised for driving unsuitable byways :)

Do you live in the countryside or just come out at weekends
to walk in it? Where do you park your car?

Regards

Ltwt
 
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