In the Bible, does Jesus say abortion is wrong?

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by United we Stand, Feb 22, 2005.

  1. Ray Fischer

    Ray Fischer Guest

    David W. Poole, Jr.
    > [email protected] (Ray Fischer)


    >>When did God appoint you as His spokesman?

    >
    >He didn't, but the prior poster is relaying information that is
    >contained in God's word.


    What you claim is God's word and what is God's word are two very
    different things.

    --
    Ray Fischer
    [email protected]
     


  2. Ray Fischer

    Ray Fischer Guest

    David W. Poole, Jr. <[email protected]> wrote:
    >On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 00:12:41 GMT, [email protected] (Ray
    >Fischer) was understood to have stated the following:
    >
    >>Peter <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>[email protected] (Ray Fischer) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    >>>> Peter <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>> >United we Stand <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    >>>> >> In the Bible, does Jesus say abortion is wrong?
    >>>> >
    >>>> >Ex. 20:13 "You shall not kill."!
    >>>>
    >>>> 1) That's not Jesus
    >>>
    >>>*** Yes, it is!

    >>
    >>Old Testament isn't Jesus.

    >
    >Yes it is;


    Another dumbshit liar for Jeezus.

    What a surprise.

    >>>> 2) Then why do you kill plants, insects, and animals?
    >>>
    >>>*** Plants, insects and animals are not sentient let alone human,

    >>
    >>So what? Does Ex. 20:13 say anything about "sentient" or "human"?

    >
    >No, but Genesis 1:26, 28 might explain why killing plants and animals
    >isn't a sin.


    And Genesis 2:7 might explain why abortion isn't a sin.

    >>Why do you think that you get to make up your own rules?

    >
    >Doesn't seem like he's making up his own rules to me.


    So you say that the Bible says that killing is bad, but killing is
    okay when you want to kill.

    Got it.

    >>>> > You are talking about human fetuses
    >>>> >aren't you, and what would this fetus become if not a human in the
    >>>> >image of God?
    >>>>
    >>>> So killing sperm is murder?
    >>>
    >>>*** I didn't say that.

    >>
    >>A lot of them become humans "in the image of God".

    >
    >The vast majority of sperm do not find their intended target.


    So what? The majority of fertilized eggs are never born.

    > Average
    >ejaculate is how many sperm cells? Only one of them, if conception is
    >successful, becomes a human "in the image of God."


    Since when do you speak for God?

    When did God annouce that YOU should be the one to speak for God,
    decide what is or is not a human being, and decide whether women
    should or should not be forced to suffer?

    Pride is one of the seven deadly sins.

    >>> Are you asking me a question? If so my answer
    >>>would be, a sperm unto itself does not contain the components to
    >>>produce human life so don't go into a chorus a Monty Python song. ***

    >>
    >>Living, human sperm IS human life.

    >
    >Uh, human sperm is worthless without a human egg.


    Uh, an embryo is worthless without a woman.

    >>It's becoming more obvious that you don't have any justification for
    >>your rules other then misogyny and the desire to be a control freak.

    >
    >It could be argued that you have no justification for your rules,
    >either.


    Not successfully.

    > Isn't abortion a form of control?


    Do you see me trying to force people to do as I say?

    >>>> > This word kill in this application is recognized as
    >>>> >"MURDER".
    >>>>
    >>>> And abortion isn't murder.
    >>>
    >>>*** I'm always interested in hearing how terminating human life -
    >>>before or after birth - isn't murder,

    >>
    >>Is killing living human sperm murder?

    >
    >No, because until the sperm has fertilized an egg, it's not a human
    >being yet.


    When did God grant you the power to decide what is or is not a human
    being?

    When did God grant you the right to commit murder?

    --
    Ray Fischer
    [email protected]
     
  3. On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 02:55:14 GMT, [email protected] (Ray
    Fischer) was understood to have stated the following:

    >David W. Poole, Jr. <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 00:12:41 GMT, [email protected] (Ray
    >>Fischer) was understood to have stated the following:
    >>
    >>>Peter <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>>[email protected] (Ray Fischer) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    >>>>> Peter <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>>> >United we Stand <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    >>>>> >> In the Bible, does Jesus say abortion is wrong?
    >>>>> >
    >>>>> >Ex. 20:13 "You shall not kill."!
    >>>>>
    >>>>> 1) That's not Jesus
    >>>>
    >>>>*** Yes, it is!
    >>>
    >>>Old Testament isn't Jesus.

    >>
    >>Yes it is;

    >
    >Another dumbshit liar for Jeezus.
    >
    >What a surprise.
    >
    >>>>> 2) Then why do you kill plants, insects, and animals?
    >>>>
    >>>>*** Plants, insects and animals are not sentient let alone human,
    >>>
    >>>So what? Does Ex. 20:13 say anything about "sentient" or "human"?

    >>
    >>No, but Genesis 1:26, 28 might explain why killing plants and animals
    >>isn't a sin.

    >
    >And Genesis 2:7 might explain why abortion isn't a sin.


    Then again, it may not.

    >>>Why do you think that you get to make up your own rules?

    >>
    >>Doesn't seem like he's making up his own rules to me.

    >
    >So you say that the Bible says that killing is bad, but killing is
    >okay when you want to kill.
    >
    >Got it.


    I didn't say that, but if you want to put words in someone else's
    mouth, feel free.

    >>>>> > You are talking about human fetuses
    >>>>> >aren't you, and what would this fetus become if not a human in the
    >>>>> >image of God?
    >>>>>
    >>>>> So killing sperm is murder?
    >>>>
    >>>>*** I didn't say that.
    >>>
    >>>A lot of them become humans "in the image of God".

    >>
    >>The vast majority of sperm do not find their intended target.

    >
    >So what? The majority of fertilized eggs are never born.


    Perhaps, but that trend isn't helped by abortion.

    >> Average
    >>ejaculate is how many sperm cells? Only one of them, if conception is
    >>successful, becomes a human "in the image of God."

    >
    >Since when do you speak for God?


    I didn't. I merely stated what you can find in any decent text book
    covering the human reproductive system.

    >When did God annouce that YOU should be the one to speak for God,
    >decide what is or is not a human being, and decide whether women
    >should or should not be forced to suffer?


    He didn't; I've merely provided references to what is in God's word.
    When did God announce that you should ignore that?

    >Pride is one of the seven deadly sins.


    Reference?

    >>>> Are you asking me a question? If so my answer
    >>>>would be, a sperm unto itself does not contain the components to
    >>>>produce human life so don't go into a chorus a Monty Python song. ***
    >>>
    >>>Living, human sperm IS human life.

    >>
    >>Uh, human sperm is worthless without a human egg.

    >
    >Uh, an embryo is worthless without a woman.


    Really? I would have never had known that. Thanks for the
    clarification. I'm sure you'll do well in sixth grade.

    As for the embryo's viability without a woman, why bother changing
    the subject? The subject was whether or not human sperm was human
    life.

    >>>It's becoming more obvious that you don't have any justification for
    >>>your rules other then misogyny and the desire to be a control freak.

    >>
    >>It could be argued that you have no justification for your rules,
    >>either.

    >
    >Not successfully.


    Perhaps not on your terms, but that's not my problem or concern.

    >> Isn't abortion a form of control?

    >
    >Do you see me trying to force people to do as I say?


    Pretty much.

    >>>>> > This word kill in this application is recognized as
    >>>>> >"MURDER".
    >>>>>
    >>>>> And abortion isn't murder.
    >>>>
    >>>>*** I'm always interested in hearing how terminating human life -
    >>>>before or after birth - isn't murder,
    >>>
    >>>Is killing living human sperm murder?

    >>
    >>No, because until the sperm has fertilized an egg, it's not a human
    >>being yet.

    >
    >When did God grant you the power to decide what is or is not a human
    >being?


    I'm not exactly sure when He granted me that power, but it's been some
    time now.

    >When did God grant you the right to commit murder?


    He didn't, and the fact that you think He did isn't my weakness.
     
  4. On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 02:50:05 GMT, [email protected] (Ray
    Fischer) was understood to have stated the following:

    >What you claim is God's word and what is God's word are two very
    >different things.


    Really? And when did God give you the right to make that distinction?
     
  5. Ray Fischer

    Ray Fischer Guest

    David W. Poole, Jr. <[email protected]> wrote:
    > [email protected] (Ray Fischer) was understood to have stated the following:


    >>>>>> > You are talking about human fetuses
    >>>>>> >aren't you, and what would this fetus become if not a human in the
    >>>>>> >image of God?
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> So killing sperm is murder?
    >>>>>
    >>>>>*** I didn't say that.
    >>>>
    >>>>A lot of them become humans "in the image of God".
    >>>
    >>>The vast majority of sperm do not find their intended target.

    >>
    >>So what? The majority of fertilized eggs are never born.

    >
    >Perhaps, but that trend isn't helped by abortion.


    You're trying to change the subject because your argument doesn't make
    any sense.

    >>> Average
    >>>ejaculate is how many sperm cells? Only one of them, if conception is
    >>>successful, becomes a human "in the image of God."

    >>
    >>Since when do you speak for God?

    >
    >I didn't. I merely stated what you can find in any decent text book
    >covering the human reproductive system.


    Sorry, but you're full of shit. What you believe about biology has
    obviously been corrupted by religious propaganda. Biology does NOT
    claim that a fertilized egg is a human. Indeed, it would be stupid
    to make such a claim since it isn't true.

    >>When did God annouce that YOU should be the one to speak for God,
    >>decide what is or is not a human being, and decide whether women
    >>should or should not be forced to suffer?

    >
    >He didn't; I've merely provided references to what is in God's word.


    Again you make claims about God's word that are just your opinion
    and not God's word at all.

    >>Pride is one of the seven deadly sins.

    >
    >Reference?


    Look it up.

    >>>>> Are you asking me a question? If so my answer
    >>>>>would be, a sperm unto itself does not contain the components to
    >>>>>produce human life so don't go into a chorus a Monty Python song. ***
    >>>>
    >>>>Living, human sperm IS human life.
    >>>
    >>>Uh, human sperm is worthless without a human egg.

    >>
    >>Uh, an embryo is worthless without a woman.

    >
    >Really? I would have never had known that.


    Surprise.

    > Thanks for the
    >clarification. I'm sure you'll do well in sixth grade.


    You bigots assholes sure do turn into assholes fast when anybody dares
    to poke holes in your dogma.

    >As for the embryo's viability without a woman, why bother changing
    >the subject? The subject was whether or not human sperm was human
    >life.


    A living human sperm is human life. That is obvious.

    >>>>It's becoming more obvious that you don't have any justification for
    >>>>your rules other then misogyny and the desire to be a control freak.
    >>>
    >>>It could be argued that you have no justification for your rules,
    >>>either.

    >>
    >>Not successfully.

    >
    >Perhaps not on your terms, but that's not my problem or concern.


    You can't even justify yourself on YOUR terms.

    >>> Isn't abortion a form of control?

    >>
    >>Do you see me trying to force people to do as I say?

    >
    >Pretty much.


    You're a liar. And, by the way, false witness is a sin the equal of
    murder.

    >>>>>> > This word kill in this application is recognized as
    >>>>>> >"MURDER".
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> And abortion isn't murder.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>*** I'm always interested in hearing how terminating human life -
    >>>>>before or after birth - isn't murder,
    >>>>
    >>>>Is killing living human sperm murder?
    >>>
    >>>No, because until the sperm has fertilized an egg, it's not a human
    >>>being yet.

    >>
    >>When did God grant you the power to decide what is or is not a human
    >>being?

    >
    >I'm not exactly sure when He granted me that power, but it's been some
    >time now.


    Just another fanatical asshole.

    >>When did God grant you the right to commit murder?

    >
    >He didn't,


    Then stop committing murder.

    --
    Ray Fischer
    [email protected]
     
  6. Ray Fischer

    Ray Fischer Guest

    David W. Poole, Jr. <[email protected]> wrote:
    > [email protected] (Ray Fischer)
    >
    >>What you claim is God's word and what is God's word are two very
    >>different things.

    >
    >Really?


    Really.

    > And when did God give you the right to make that distinction?


    When Jesus walked the Earth.

    --
    Ray Fischer
    [email protected]
     
  7. On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 04:09:38 GMT, [email protected] (Ray
    Fischer) was understood to have stated the following:

    >David W. Poole, Jr. <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> [email protected] (Ray Fischer)
    >>
    >>>What you claim is God's word and what is God's word are two very
    >>>different things.

    >>
    >>Really?

    >
    >Really.
    >
    >> And when did God give you the right to make that distinction?

    >
    >When Jesus walked the Earth.


    Elaborate. Nothing I read leads me to believe that Jesus's presence on
    terra firma advocates discarding the OT.
     
  8. Ben Kaufman

    Ben Kaufman Guest

    On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 22:21:52 -0500, "David W. Poole, Jr."
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Quit cross posting this flame over ancient myths in rec.bicycles.
     
  9. On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 04:08:38 GMT, [email protected] (Ray
    Fischer) was understood to have stated the following:

    >David W. Poole, Jr. <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> [email protected] (Ray Fischer) was understood to have stated the following:

    >
    >>>>>>> > You are talking about human fetuses
    >>>>>>> >aren't you, and what would this fetus become if not a human in the
    >>>>>>> >image of God?
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> So killing sperm is murder?
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>*** I didn't say that.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>A lot of them become humans "in the image of God".
    >>>>
    >>>>The vast majority of sperm do not find their intended target.
    >>>
    >>>So what? The majority of fertilized eggs are never born.

    >>
    >>Perhaps, but that trend isn't helped by abortion.

    >
    >You're trying to change the subject because your argument doesn't make
    >any sense.


    Nor, I'm afraid, does yours.

    >>>> Average
    >>>>ejaculate is how many sperm cells? Only one of them, if conception is
    >>>>successful, becomes a human "in the image of God."
    >>>
    >>>Since when do you speak for God?

    >>
    >>I didn't. I merely stated what you can find in any decent text book
    >>covering the human reproductive system.

    >
    >Sorry, but you're full of shit. What you believe about biology has
    >obviously been corrupted by religious propaganda. Biology does NOT
    >claim that a fertilized egg is a human. Indeed, it would be stupid
    >to make such a claim since it isn't true.


    Biology taught me that it takes human sperm to fertilize a human egg.
    At the point of conception, the two strands of DNA (or are the single
    strands RNA? been too long) entwine to define the DNA of the resultant
    human(s). Transplanting that fertilized egg into another mammal
    suitable for gestation will result in a human, not another member of
    the species carrying the fertilized egg, if the fetus survives the
    process.

    >>>When did God annouce that YOU should be the one to speak for God,
    >>>decide what is or is not a human being, and decide whether women
    >>>should or should not be forced to suffer?

    >>
    >>He didn't; I've merely provided references to what is in God's word.

    >
    >Again you make claims about God's word that are just your opinion
    >and not God's word at all.


    Odd, I don't recall writing the Bible. I do recall reading it a few
    times.

    >>>Pride is one of the seven deadly sins.

    >>
    >>Reference?

    >
    >Look it up.


    Thanks.

    >>>>>> Are you asking me a question? If so my answer
    >>>>>>would be, a sperm unto itself does not contain the components to
    >>>>>>produce human life so don't go into a chorus a Monty Python song. ***
    >>>>>
    >>>>>Living, human sperm IS human life.
    >>>>
    >>>>Uh, human sperm is worthless without a human egg.
    >>>
    >>>Uh, an embryo is worthless without a woman.

    >>
    >>Really? I would have never had known that.

    >
    >Surprise.


    Surprised you don't know sarcasm when you see it.

    >> Thanks for the
    >>clarification. I'm sure you'll do well in sixth grade.

    >
    >You bigots assholes sure do turn into assholes fast when anybody dares
    >to poke holes in your dogma.


    I resent your remark about being a bigot. I hate everyone equally.

    Or were you referring to yourself?

    >>As for the embryo's viability without a woman, why bother changing
    >>the subject? The subject was whether or not human sperm was human
    >>life.

    >
    >A living human sperm is human life. That is obvious.


    No, a living human sperm cell is not human life. In and of itself, it,
    at best, half a human life, and that's by a far stretch of the
    imagination. It carries half the sequence of instructions necessary to
    create a human life.

    >>>>>It's becoming more obvious that you don't have any justification for
    >>>>>your rules other then misogyny and the desire to be a control freak.
    >>>>
    >>>>It could be argued that you have no justification for your rules,
    >>>>either.
    >>>
    >>>Not successfully.

    >>
    >>Perhaps not on your terms, but that's not my problem or concern.

    >
    >You can't even justify yourself on YOUR terms.


    Odd; I don't sense a feeling of inner conflict with my belief system.

    >>>> Isn't abortion a form of control?
    >>>
    >>>Do you see me trying to force people to do as I say?

    >>
    >>Pretty much.

    >
    >You're a liar. And, by the way, false witness is a sin the equal of
    >murder.


    Glad you noted the severity of the sin. Thanks for the false witness.

    >>>>>>> > This word kill in this application is recognized as
    >>>>>>> >"MURDER".
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> And abortion isn't murder.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>*** I'm always interested in hearing how terminating human life -
    >>>>>>before or after birth - isn't murder,
    >>>>>
    >>>>>Is killing living human sperm murder?
    >>>>
    >>>>No, because until the sperm has fertilized an egg, it's not a human
    >>>>being yet.
    >>>
    >>>When did God grant you the power to decide what is or is not a human
    >>>being?

    >>
    >>I'm not exactly sure when He granted me that power, but it's been some
    >>time now.

    >
    >Just another fanatical asshole.


    At least you recognize your problems.

    >>>When did God grant you the right to commit murder?

    >>
    >>He didn't,

    >
    >Then stop committing murder.


    When did I commit murder?
     
  10. unisex

    unisex Guest

    Ben Kaufman wrote:

    > On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 22:21:52 -0500, "David W. Poole, Jr."
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > Quit cross posting this flame over ancient myths in rec.bicycles.


    We'll stop when you stop spreading your lies about Dubya, Jesus and SUVs
     
  11. Ray Fischer

    Ray Fischer Guest

    David W. Poole, Jr. <[email protected]> wrote:
    >On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 04:09:38 GMT, [email protected] (Ray
    >Fischer) was understood to have stated the following:
    >
    >>David W. Poole, Jr. <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>> [email protected] (Ray Fischer)
    >>>
    >>>>What you claim is God's word and what is God's word are two very
    >>>>different things.
    >>>
    >>>Really?

    >>
    >>Really.
    >>
    >>> And when did God give you the right to make that distinction?

    >>
    >>When Jesus walked the Earth.

    >
    >Elaborate. Nothing I read leads me to believe that Jesus's presence on
    >terra firma advocates discarding the OT.


    Nothing in the Bible appoints you as ANY sort of judge about the rules
    other people are expected to follow. In fact Jesus said more than
    once that YOU are not to make the rules nor are you to make other
    people obey rules you come up with.

    --
    Ray Fischer
    [email protected]
     
  12. Ray Fischer

    Ray Fischer Guest

    David W. Poole, Jr. <[email protected]> wrote:
    >On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 04:08:38 GMT, [email protected] (Ray
    >Fischer) was understood to have stated the following:
    >
    >>David W. Poole, Jr. <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>> [email protected] (Ray Fischer) was understood to have stated the following:

    >>
    >>>>>>>> > You are talking about human fetuses
    >>>>>>>> >aren't you, and what would this fetus become if not a human in the
    >>>>>>>> >image of God?
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> So killing sperm is murder?
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>*** I didn't say that.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>A lot of them become humans "in the image of God".
    >>>>>
    >>>>>The vast majority of sperm do not find their intended target.
    >>>>
    >>>>So what? The majority of fertilized eggs are never born.
    >>>
    >>>Perhaps, but that trend isn't helped by abortion.

    >>
    >>You're trying to change the subject because your argument doesn't make
    >>any sense.

    >
    >Nor, I'm afraid, does yours.


    Since I haven't stated mine yet it's obvious that you're just
    bullshitting again.

    >>>>> Average
    >>>>>ejaculate is how many sperm cells? Only one of them, if conception is
    >>>>>successful, becomes a human "in the image of God."
    >>>>
    >>>>Since when do you speak for God?
    >>>
    >>>I didn't. I merely stated what you can find in any decent text book
    >>>covering the human reproductive system.

    >>
    >>Sorry, but you're full of shit. What you believe about biology has
    >>obviously been corrupted by religious propaganda. Biology does NOT
    >>claim that a fertilized egg is a human. Indeed, it would be stupid
    >>to make such a claim since it isn't true.

    >
    >Biology taught me that it takes human sperm to fertilize a human egg.


    That much is mostly true.

    >At the point of conception, the two strands of DNA (or are the single
    >strands RNA? been too long) entwine to define the DNA of the resultant
    >human(s).


    Approximately true. There is some gene shuffling.

    > Transplanting that fertilized egg into another mammal
    >suitable for gestation will result in a human, not another member of
    >the species carrying the fertilized egg, if the fetus survives the
    >process.


    It won't.

    And it's good to see you say that it would RESULT in a human and not
    BE a human.

    >>>>When did God annouce that YOU should be the one to speak for God,
    >>>>decide what is or is not a human being, and decide whether women
    >>>>should or should not be forced to suffer?
    >>>
    >>>He didn't; I've merely provided references to what is in God's word.

    >>
    >>Again you make claims about God's word that are just your opinion
    >>and not God's word at all.

    >
    >Odd, I don't recall writing the Bible. I do recall reading it a few
    >times.


    You're not quoting the Bible. You're making up your own rules.

    >>>>>>> Are you asking me a question? If so my answer
    >>>>>>>would be, a sperm unto itself does not contain the components to
    >>>>>>>produce human life so don't go into a chorus a Monty Python song. ***
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>Living, human sperm IS human life.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>Uh, human sperm is worthless without a human egg.
    >>>>
    >>>>Uh, an embryo is worthless without a woman.
    >>>
    >>>Really? I would have never had known that.

    >>
    >>Surprise.

    >
    >Surprised you don't know sarcasm when you see it.


    Ditto.

    >>> Thanks for the
    >>>clarification. I'm sure you'll do well in sixth grade.

    >>
    >>You bigots assholes sure do turn into assholes fast when anybody dares
    >>to poke holes in your dogma.

    >
    >I resent your remark about being a bigot.


    Tought shit, bigot.

    >>>As for the embryo's viability without a woman, why bother changing
    >>>the subject? The subject was whether or not human sperm was human
    >>>life.

    >>
    >>A living human sperm is human life. That is obvious.

    >
    >No, a living human sperm cell is not human life.


    No? What kind of life is it? Canine? Equine?

    Again you pro-liars resort to all manner of idiocy when you get backed
    into corners.

    >>>>> Isn't abortion a form of control?
    >>>>
    >>>>Do you see me trying to force people to do as I say?
    >>>
    >>>Pretty much.

    >>
    >>You're a liar. And, by the way, false witness is a sin the equal of
    >>murder.

    >
    >Glad you noted the severity of the sin. Thanks for the false witness.


    Thanks for proving yourself to be another fake christian who has only
    lies and hate.

    --
    Ray Fischer
    [email protected]
     
  13. On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 05:44:14 GMT, [email protected] (Ray
    Fischer) was understood to have stated the following:

    >David W. Poole, Jr. <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 04:08:38 GMT, [email protected] (Ray
    >>Fischer) was understood to have stated the following:
    >>
    >>>David W. Poole, Jr. <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>> [email protected] (Ray Fischer) was understood to have stated the following:
    >>>
    >>>>>>>>> > You are talking about human fetuses
    >>>>>>>>> >aren't you, and what would this fetus become if not a human in the
    >>>>>>>>> >image of God?
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> So killing sperm is murder?
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>*** I didn't say that.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>A lot of them become humans "in the image of God".
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>The vast majority of sperm do not find their intended target.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>So what? The majority of fertilized eggs are never born.
    >>>>
    >>>>Perhaps, but that trend isn't helped by abortion.
    >>>
    >>>You're trying to change the subject because your argument doesn't make
    >>>any sense.

    >>
    >>Nor, I'm afraid, does yours.

    >
    >Since I haven't stated mine yet it's obvious that you're just
    >bullshitting again.


    You're attacking my view, and not providing enough information to
    convince me you're right, and I'm wrong, thus in a sense you have
    stated yours. Therefore you're the one doing the bullshitting.

    >>>>>> Average
    >>>>>>ejaculate is how many sperm cells? Only one of them, if conception is
    >>>>>>successful, becomes a human "in the image of God."
    >>>>>
    >>>>>Since when do you speak for God?
    >>>>
    >>>>I didn't. I merely stated what you can find in any decent text book
    >>>>covering the human reproductive system.
    >>>
    >>>Sorry, but you're full of shit. What you believe about biology has
    >>>obviously been corrupted by religious propaganda. Biology does NOT
    >>>claim that a fertilized egg is a human. Indeed, it would be stupid
    >>>to make such a claim since it isn't true.

    >>
    >>Biology taught me that it takes human sperm to fertilize a human egg.

    >
    >That much is mostly true.


    Or at least it would require manipulation, or a sperm donor with 23
    chromosomes.

    >>At the point of conception, the two strands of DNA (or are the single
    >>strands RNA? been too long) entwine to define the DNA of the resultant
    >>human(s).

    >
    >Approximately true. There is some gene shuffling.


    The magic of the programming.

    >> Transplanting that fertilized egg into another mammal
    >>suitable for gestation will result in a human, not another member of
    >>the species carrying the fertilized egg, if the fetus survives the
    >>process.

    >
    >It won't.


    What will it be, then? If a human egg is put in a petri dish and
    fertilized with a human sperm, and implanted in an ape for gestation,
    what will the result be?

    >And it's good to see you say that it would RESULT in a human and not
    >BE a human.


    A human is called many things during the period of it's existence.
    Zygote, embryo, fetus, infant, toddler, adolescent, adult, and corpse,
    to name a few. The zygote is a human. Or do you believe that it's not
    a human until the point of birth?

    >>>>>When did God annouce that YOU should be the one to speak for God,
    >>>>>decide what is or is not a human being, and decide whether women
    >>>>>should or should not be forced to suffer?
    >>>>
    >>>>He didn't; I've merely provided references to what is in God's word.
    >>>
    >>>Again you make claims about God's word that are just your opinion
    >>>and not God's word at all.

    >>
    >>Odd, I don't recall writing the Bible. I do recall reading it a few
    >>times.

    >
    >You're not quoting the Bible. You're making up your own rules.


    Huh? My first participation in this thread in support of John 1:1-4 &
    14. How is that making up my own rules?

    >>>>>>>> Are you asking me a question? If so my answer
    >>>>>>>>would be, a sperm unto itself does not contain the components to
    >>>>>>>>produce human life so don't go into a chorus a Monty Python song. ***
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>Living, human sperm IS human life.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>Uh, human sperm is worthless without a human egg.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>Uh, an embryo is worthless without a woman.
    >>>>
    >>>>Really? I would have never had known that.
    >>>
    >>>Surprise.

    >>
    >>Surprised you don't know sarcasm when you see it.

    >
    >Ditto.
    >
    >>>> Thanks for the
    >>>>clarification. I'm sure you'll do well in sixth grade.
    >>>
    >>>You bigots assholes sure do turn into assholes fast when anybody dares
    >>>to poke holes in your dogma.

    >>
    >>I resent your remark about being a bigot.

    >
    >Tought shit, bigot.


    Nice clip, bigot.

    >>>>As for the embryo's viability without a woman, why bother changing
    >>>>the subject? The subject was whether or not human sperm was human
    >>>>life.
    >>>
    >>>A living human sperm is human life. That is obvious.

    >>
    >>No, a living human sperm cell is not human life.

    >
    >No? What kind of life is it? Canine? Equine?


    It's germatic until a successful fertilization occurs.

    >Again you pro-liars resort to all manner of idiocy when you get backed
    >into corners.


    We're just trying to follow your lead.

    >>>>>> Isn't abortion a form of control?
    >>>>>
    >>>>>Do you see me trying to force people to do as I say?
    >>>>
    >>>>Pretty much.
    >>>
    >>>You're a liar. And, by the way, false witness is a sin the equal of
    >>>murder.

    >>
    >>Glad you noted the severity of the sin. Thanks for the false witness.

    >
    >Thanks for proving yourself to be another fake christian who has only
    >lies and hate.


    Thanks for proving yourself to be an extremely ignorant bigot. Have
    you seen a post in this thread from me expressing judgement towards
    those who perform or receive abortions? A reading comprehension course
    or twelve might prove useful to you.
     
  14. On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 05:40:41 GMT, [email protected] (Ray
    Fischer) was understood to have stated the following:

    >David W. Poole, Jr. <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 04:09:38 GMT, [email protected] (Ray
    >>Fischer) was understood to have stated the following:
    >>
    >>>David W. Poole, Jr. <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>> [email protected] (Ray Fischer)
    >>>>
    >>>>>What you claim is God's word and what is God's word are two very
    >>>>>different things.
    >>>>
    >>>>Really?
    >>>
    >>>Really.
    >>>
    >>>> And when did God give you the right to make that distinction?
    >>>
    >>>When Jesus walked the Earth.

    >>
    >>Elaborate. Nothing I read leads me to believe that Jesus's presence on
    >>terra firma advocates discarding the OT.

    >
    >Nothing in the Bible appoints you as ANY sort of judge about the rules
    >other people are expected to follow. In fact Jesus said more than
    >once that YOU are not to make the rules nor are you to make other
    >people obey rules you come up with.


    We are expected to correctly handle the word of truth, and anyone
    stating the Bible condones abortion is not properly handling it.
     
  15. Ben Kaufman

    Ben Kaufman Guest

    On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 21:40:04 -0800, unisex <[email protected]> wrote:


    >We'll stop when you stop spreading your lies about Dubya, Jesus and SUVs


    GO back under your rock little troll.
     
  16. On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 21:40:04 -0800, unisex <[email protected]> wrote in message
    <[email protected]>:

    >Ben Kaufman wrote:
    >> <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> Quit cross posting this flame over ancient myths in rec.bicycles.

    >We'll stop when you stop spreading your lies about Dubya, Jesus and SUVs


    +--------------------------------------+
    \ 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 /
    \ 1 9 / /
    \ 0 / 10 /
    \ TROLL-O-METER / /
    \ / /
    \ / /
    \_____________________/____/
    \ /
    \....................../
     
  17. Ray Fischer

    Ray Fischer Guest

    David W. Poole, Jr. <[email protected]> wrote:
    > [email protected] (Ray Fischer)
    >>David W. Poole, Jr. <[email protected]> wrote:


    >>>>>>What you claim is God's word and what is God's word are two very
    >>>>>>different things.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>Really?
    >>>>
    >>>>Really.
    >>>>
    >>>>> And when did God give you the right to make that distinction?
    >>>>
    >>>>When Jesus walked the Earth.
    >>>
    >>>Elaborate. Nothing I read leads me to believe that Jesus's presence on
    >>>terra firma advocates discarding the OT.

    >>
    >>Nothing in the Bible appoints you as ANY sort of judge about the rules
    >>other people are expected to follow. In fact Jesus said more than
    >>once that YOU are not to make the rules nor are you to make other
    >>people obey rules you come up with.

    >
    >We are expected to correctly handle the word of truth,


    What part of "you don't make the rules" are you too stupid to
    understand?

    > and anyone
    >stating the Bible condones abortion is not properly handling it.


    "Properly" according to you.

    You're just an immoral control freak using the Bible for your own
    ends.

    --
    Ray Fischer
    [email protected]
     
  18. Ray Fischer

    Ray Fischer Guest

    David W. Poole, Jr. <[email protected]> wrote:
    > [email protected] (Ray Fischer) was understood to have stated the following:


    >>>>>>>>>> > You are talking about human fetuses
    >>>>>>>>>> >aren't you, and what would this fetus become if not a human in the
    >>>>>>>>>> >image of God?
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> So killing sperm is murder?
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>*** I didn't say that.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>A lot of them become humans "in the image of God".
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>The vast majority of sperm do not find their intended target.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>So what? The majority of fertilized eggs are never born.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>Perhaps, but that trend isn't helped by abortion.
    >>>>
    >>>>You're trying to change the subject because your argument doesn't make
    >>>>any sense.
    >>>
    >>>Nor, I'm afraid, does yours.

    >>
    >>Since I haven't stated mine yet it's obvious that you're just
    >>bullshitting again.

    >
    >You're attacking my view,


    I am attacking your pretense that you get to speak for God.

    You do not.

    >>>>>>> Average
    >>>>>>>ejaculate is how many sperm cells? Only one of them, if conception is
    >>>>>>>successful, becomes a human "in the image of God."
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>Since when do you speak for God?
    >>>>>
    >>>>>I didn't. I merely stated what you can find in any decent text book
    >>>>>covering the human reproductive system.
    >>>>
    >>>>Sorry, but you're full of shit. What you believe about biology has
    >>>>obviously been corrupted by religious propaganda. Biology does NOT
    >>>>claim that a fertilized egg is a human. Indeed, it would be stupid
    >>>>to make such a claim since it isn't true.
    >>>
    >>>Biology taught me that it takes human sperm to fertilize a human egg.

    >>
    >>That much is mostly true.

    >
    >Or at least it would require manipulation, or a sperm donor with 23
    >chromosomes.


    But a fertilized egg isn't a human.

    >>> Transplanting that fertilized egg into another mammal
    >>>suitable for gestation will result in a human, not another member of
    >>>the species carrying the fertilized egg, if the fetus survives the
    >>>process.

    >>
    >>It won't.

    >
    >What will it be, then? If a human egg is put in a petri dish and
    >fertilized with a human sperm, and implanted in an ape for gestation,
    >what will the result be?


    A dead embryo.

    >>And it's good to see you say that it would RESULT in a human and not
    >>BE a human.

    >
    >A human is called many things during the period of it's existence.
    >Zygote, embryo, fetus, infant, toddler, adolescent, adult, and corpse,
    >to name a few.


    Don't forget sperm and egg.

    Oh, wait, you think that you're the equal of God and that YOU get to
    decide what is or is not a human being, regardless of law, tradition,
    or society.

    You're just a self-centered control freak with delusions of godhood.

    >>>>>>When did God annouce that YOU should be the one to speak for God,
    >>>>>>decide what is or is not a human being, and decide whether women
    >>>>>>should or should not be forced to suffer?
    >>>>>
    >>>>>He didn't; I've merely provided references to what is in God's word.
    >>>>
    >>>>Again you make claims about God's word that are just your opinion
    >>>>and not God's word at all.
    >>>
    >>>Odd, I don't recall writing the Bible. I do recall reading it a few
    >>>times.

    >>
    >>You're not quoting the Bible. You're making up your own rules.

    >
    >Huh? My first participation in this thread in support of John 1:1-4 &
    >14. How is that making up my own rules?


    YOU tried to claim that those passages were some justification for
    your desire to force peopel to do as you wish.

    >>>>>As for the embryo's viability without a woman, why bother changing
    >>>>>the subject? The subject was whether or not human sperm was human
    >>>>>life.
    >>>>
    >>>>A living human sperm is human life. That is obvious.
    >>>
    >>>No, a living human sperm cell is not human life.

    >>
    >>No? What kind of life is it? Canine? Equine?

    >
    >It's germatic until a successful fertilization occurs.


    So now you're reduced to making up silly words. Rather than just
    admit that you might be wrong you resort to dishonesty.

    That must be that "christian" morality I hear about.

    --
    Ray Fischer
    [email protected]
     
  19. Ray Fischer

    Ray Fischer Guest

    David W. Poole, Jr. <[email protected]> wrote:
    > [email protected] (Ray Fischer) was understood to have stated the following:


    >>>>>>>>>> > You are talking about human fetuses
    >>>>>>>>>> >aren't you, and what would this fetus become if not a human in the
    >>>>>>>>>> >image of God?
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> So killing sperm is murder?
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>*** I didn't say that.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>A lot of them become humans "in the image of God".
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>The vast majority of sperm do not find their intended target.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>So what? The majority of fertilized eggs are never born.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>Perhaps, but that trend isn't helped by abortion.
    >>>>
    >>>>You're trying to change the subject because your argument doesn't make
    >>>>any sense.
    >>>
    >>>Nor, I'm afraid, does yours.

    >>
    >>Since I haven't stated mine yet it's obvious that you're just
    >>bullshitting again.

    >
    >You're attacking my view,


    I am attacking your pretense that you get to speak for God.

    You do not.

    >>>>>>> Average
    >>>>>>>ejaculate is how many sperm cells? Only one of them, if conception is
    >>>>>>>successful, becomes a human "in the image of God."
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>Since when do you speak for God?
    >>>>>
    >>>>>I didn't. I merely stated what you can find in any decent text book
    >>>>>covering the human reproductive system.
    >>>>
    >>>>Sorry, but you're full of shit. What you believe about biology has
    >>>>obviously been corrupted by religious propaganda. Biology does NOT
    >>>>claim that a fertilized egg is a human. Indeed, it would be stupid
    >>>>to make such a claim since it isn't true.
    >>>
    >>>Biology taught me that it takes human sperm to fertilize a human egg.

    >>
    >>That much is mostly true.

    >
    >Or at least it would require manipulation, or a sperm donor with 23
    >chromosomes.


    But a fertilized egg isn't a human.

    >>> Transplanting that fertilized egg into another mammal
    >>>suitable for gestation will result in a human, not another member of
    >>>the species carrying the fertilized egg, if the fetus survives the
    >>>process.

    >>
    >>It won't.

    >
    >What will it be, then? If a human egg is put in a petri dish and
    >fertilized with a human sperm, and implanted in an ape for gestation,
    >what will the result be?


    A dead embryo.

    >>And it's good to see you say that it would RESULT in a human and not
    >>BE a human.

    >
    >A human is called many things during the period of it's existence.
    >Zygote, embryo, fetus, infant, toddler, adolescent, adult, and corpse,
    >to name a few.


    Don't forget sperm and egg.

    Oh, wait, you think that you're the equal of God and that YOU get to
    decide what is or is not a human being, regardless of law, tradition,
    or society.

    You're just a self-centered control freak with delusions of godhood.

    >>>>>>When did God annouce that YOU should be the one to speak for God,
    >>>>>>decide what is or is not a human being, and decide whether women
    >>>>>>should or should not be forced to suffer?
    >>>>>
    >>>>>He didn't; I've merely provided references to what is in God's word.
    >>>>
    >>>>Again you make claims about God's word that are just your opinion
    >>>>and not God's word at all.
    >>>
    >>>Odd, I don't recall writing the Bible. I do recall reading it a few
    >>>times.

    >>
    >>You're not quoting the Bible. You're making up your own rules.

    >
    >Huh? My first participation in this thread in support of John 1:1-4 &
    >14. How is that making up my own rules?


    YOU tried to claim that those passages were some justification for
    your desire to force peopel to do as you wish.

    >>>>>As for the embryo's viability without a woman, why bother changing
    >>>>>the subject? The subject was whether or not human sperm was human
    >>>>>life.
    >>>>
    >>>>A living human sperm is human life. That is obvious.
    >>>
    >>>No, a living human sperm cell is not human life.

    >>
    >>No? What kind of life is it? Canine? Equine?

    >
    >It's germatic until a successful fertilization occurs.


    So now you're reduced to making up silly words. Rather than just
    admit that you might be wrong you resort to dishonesty.

    That must be that "christian" morality I hear about.

    --
    Ray Fischer
    [email protected]
     
  20. Hugiboo

    Hugiboo Guest

    "junegill" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

    > > >Nope. My ultimate wish to end all abortion is based on it being the

    > ultimate
    > > >act of selfishness.

    >
    > Let's take the case of a Brazilian woman in extreme poverty, who already has
    > 7 children, 2 of whom are living in the sewers in Rio de Janeiro because she
    > can't afford to feed them. She finds that she's pregnant again and if she
    > carries to term at least one of her other children will be forced out onto
    > the streets. Were she to abort to save her existing children, would that be
    > the 'ultimate act of selfishness'?


    That's a good example. We are faced with a tough decision; is one
    life worth more than another? Is it right to murder one person to
    save another? No. Is it right to murder one person to save ten
    people? No. Is it right to murder one person to save a million
    people? No. That is a hard thing to accept. That means that it
    would have been wrong for a German citizen to attempt to kill Hitler.
    Now, don't misunderstand me, it is not wrong for justice to be done.
    It was not wrong for other nations to go to war with Germany (even
    though they didn't really care about the Jews) and it was not wrong to
    hold those responsible for war crimes accountable. But it is wrong
    for a citizen to kill his/her authorities. And I don't think I'm so
    great. If I had the chance to kill Hitler at that time I don't know
    what I would do, but I do know it would be wrong to kill him.

    In the case of the Brazilian woman, which case is murder? To send one
    of her children to live on the streets or to have an abortion. The
    child living on the streets has an opportunity to know Christ and live
    a meaningful life, just as anyone else who is allowed to live. But
    the unborn child has no chance, he/she is killed for the benefit of
    others. If you believe that a foetus or a zygote is not a human life,
    then this is an easy choice for you. But if you believe that it is a
    human life, then the only option is to go through with the birth and
    trust God to be there for you. And no, I am not saying that if you
    trust in God that you will have a materially blessed life, but you
    will have a blessed life (ie. pain, suffering, persecution, love, joy,
    hope), but I digress... I am convinced (not from the Bible, my
    church, friends, or anyone else, but from what I have learned about
    the stages of life; zygote, foetus, child...) that from the point of
    conception, there exists a human life. Many pro-abortion people agree
    that it is a human life, but they think it's worth it. Well the
    Christians who kill abortion doctors think it's worth it too. In
    reality, it's not worth it. It is not our place (as individuals) to
    decide who lives and who dies, that is up to God.

    Would it be selfish to abort a child to save her children? Yes. How
    can she decide that it's ok to kill one child so the rest can have a
    better life? Would you kill one child for a million dollars so that
    the rest could live better? Any decent person would reject that
    proposition because they value the life of each child. I want to make
    it clear that I do NOT think that abortionist supporters are not
    decent people. They do not see it the same way as I do, or they would
    obviously come to the same conclusion I come to. They are just doing
    what they think is right. I just draw the extreme examples to show
    you how I see it.

    > > > It has nothing to do with anyone's wish to avoid childbirth
    > > >agony. That comes with the territory of sin.

    >
    > What sin might that be?
    >
    > And *again* we see the standard Pro-Life line that the agnoy of
    > childbirth is the price women are expected to pay for the sin having
    > sex.


    The sin here is not sex, unless of course it is sex outside of
    marriage, which interestingly enough accounts for over 95% of
    abortions. The point that it is sin that causes the pain of
    childbirth refers to the belief that we live in a fallen world (as
    opposed to a perfect world where there is no suffering) because of the
    sin of Adam and Eve. The fact remains that women have pain in
    childbirth, and I haven't heard of one that didn't think it was worth
    it at the time (although some may get bitter years later :)
     
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