In the US, Automobiles and bikes don't mix very well.

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Walter, Oct 17, 2003.

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  1. Walter

    Walter Guest

    > Maybe you can rattle off all the people you know who died in automobiles. I guess that would prove
    > cars and cars don't mix.
    >

    I can think of two, and I'm sure there are more, but I do know of a lot more on motorcycles. It
    proves nothing.
     


  2. Walter

    Walter Guest

    > I'm riding on the road because that's the route that actually leads to my destination. My bicycle
    > is not a toy.

    Mine is, and mom taught me not to play with my toys in traffic.
     
  3. Walter

    Walter Guest

    "Mike Kruger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > "Walter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > > Ride on the street all you want, but when the laws if physics catch up to you, don't come crying
    > > to me about it.
    > >
    > > I'm staying on the bike paths,
    > >
    > That's probably a good thing. You should not ride where you feel insecure, and you obviously don't
    > feel secure on the road.
    >
    > You are doing what is, for you personally, the right thing at this time.
    >
    > Mike Kruger

    Thank you. I agree 100 percent!
     
  4. Walter

    Walter Guest

    [email protected] (Dennis P. Harris) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > On 18 Oct 2003 12:26:59 -0700 in rec.bicycles.misc, [email protected] (Walter) wrote:
    >
    > > I can name at least 10 people I know or I should say known who have died on Motorcycles.
    >
    > which are NOT bicycles, and which are far more dangerous than bicycles.

    agreed.
     
  5. Walter

    Walter Guest

    I have a very limited experience riding a bike as an adult in traffic. I also maybe misinformed.

    However, my opinions are based on my own experiences as motorist, and from people I have known over
    the years who have been involved in accidents both in automobiles, and bicycles, as well as
    pedestrians.

    I really don't have an agenda here. I wish you a long and happy life, and I hope all your rides are
    pleasant and safe ones. I will make some of you happy in that I have never heard of someone saying
    that an accident was a cyclists fault because they failed to do X.

    Its just my opinion that unlike sized vehicles or vehicles traveling at difference speeds
    don't mix well.

    This will piss off truck drivers, but I also think that most of the Freight hauled by trucks in this
    country should be hauled by rail. I don't think that 18 wheelers and passenger vehicles mix well.

    I don't think that their should be as many grade level rail crossings in this country either.
    Passenger vehicles and trains don't mix well, no matter who has the right of way. The only law that
    is of any real concern is the law of physics.

    I'm not advocating that bikes shouldn't be on the road with automobiles. I'm just stating its not
    very safe for the bicyclists.

    Perhaps in some areas of the country bikes are more accepted on the road than where I live. Maybe
    the word accepted is not right, I should use the term expected.

    This is a true story, but I feel it is somewhat relevant. After my other posts I left on this
    thread today. I decided to go biking with my 5 year old daughter. There is a 10 mile long bike
    trail near the Mississippi River north of St. Louis Missouri. I have only road on one small section
    because its nice and flat and away from the traffic. Most of the rest of the bike trail is
    basically on the shoulder of the highway.

    So I decided to find a different spot that we could ride on. I found a spot that seemed to be
    exactly what I wanted. The trail was off and above the highway in a hilly area along the river. The
    bike trail itself is asphalt, and about 6 feet wide. Unlike the area of the bike trail that I was
    use to, this stretch of trail was hilly and winding. Therefore you couldn't see more than one
    hundred feet or so up and around the trail.

    We started out and had only gotten less than a few hundred feet up the trail when I looked up and
    about 50 feet in front of me coming down the bike trail towards us was a silver Toyota Camry driven
    by a young blonde woman, with a smile on her face waving. She had that look like she was saying
    "Yes, I know this is a bike trail, but I'm a dumbass, I took a wrong turn and couldn't get off of
    it, and I'm sorry!". We moved off the trail and she went past us to the driveway of the parking lot
    where we had parked and got back on the Highway and turned around and took off.

    I found that pretty hard to believe. It was not what I was expecting. About 2 minutes later 6 boy
    scouts on bikes came down the same hill and around a blind spot due to the foliage on the untrimmed
    tree branches that where growing out over the trail. They were doing about 25 mile an hour, but
    where hanging out over our side of the path do avoid the tree branches. Luckily I had my daughter
    off of her bike because of the Toyota and they missed us, barely. After a few more boy scouts
    zooming past us from a blind spot, I decided that this was not really the best stretch of bike trail
    for us and so we road back to my truck.

    On the way back to the truck coming down the other hill towards us on the same Bike trail was a
    teenager on a Kawasaki 4 wheeler.

    We got in my truck and went back to the old stretch of Bike trail that is about a mile long and is
    basically a flat straight-a-way through the woods. We really enjoyed ourselves there.

    I'm sure most of the people reading this are thinking I should have been on the cell phone reporting
    this to the cops. Well, I could have but I know the cops around here have bigger fish to fry than
    kids riding 4 wheelers where they shouldn't and dumb blonds that they can't catch. They would have
    taken all of the information I had, but nothing would have been done about it.

    Is there a point to this story? I don't know, other than If I had met all of this traffic coming at
    me on the road while I was in my truck, I wouldn't have been near as nervous about mine and my
    daughters own personal safety as I was while I was on a bike.

    Take care,
     
  6. Walter

    Walter Guest

    > No one I know has died on a motorcycle. Perhaps this means some other things you are sure of also
    > aren't true.

    You either aren't very old, or grew up in an area where a lot of people in the 1970s didn't ride
    motorcycles, or you just knew a lot people who were wise beyond their years and didn't ride
    motorcyles when they were young.

    >
    > >Now lets talk bicycles, In my opinion bikes and cars don't mix. That's just the way things are.
    >
    > For someone who claims to have driven all over the world, it appears you have failed to notice how
    > *well* bikes and cars get along in countries with a broader cycling culture than the U.S.
    >

    I think I qualified this over and over saying that US drivers are by and large idiots. I lived
    in Europe and the drivers there are MUCH better than the US. Hence they watch out for cyclists
    more. However there are still a lot more bike paths in Europe than their ever are going to be in
    this country.

    Also, I don't think they let bicycles on the Autobahn, and the Germans are smart enough not to want
    to go there on bikes anyway.

    > Cycling is more visible in the U.S. now that any time I can remember (IMHO). If the present trend
    > can be maintained, car/cyclist relations will only improve.

    I hope you are correct.
     
  7. Walter

    Walter Guest

    > > I believe the best way to end up as "Road Pizza" is to have the attitude that you have as much
    > > right to ride on the road as an automobile, and you are going to exercise that right without
    > > regard to the reality that the most people who are zooming inches away from you aren't even
    > > conscience you exist.
    >
    > Well, your "belief" is entirely mistaken. Stop being a craven coward, learn how to ride safely and
    > get ON THE ROAD WHERE BIKES BELONG.

    Mistaken? Perhaps. I'm not really sure how to "Ride Safely" when most of the burden falls on someone
    else, and that person is an inattentive clown. Jousting at the Horseless Carriage with my bike is
    not really how I want to spend my life. If that makes me a coward, then I'm guilty as charged. I
    really don't have an agenda, or anything to prove.

    Did you hear about the guy who had the website dedicated to teaching people that their pre-conceived
    fears about Grizzly Bears were all wrong, and that Grizzlies are just misunderstood animals, and are
    basically berry eaters? They found the uneaten parts of what was left of this guy in Alaska last
    week. It seems he had been sucking his own propaganda tailpipe a little too much, and one of his
    berry eating friends decided to expand its diet.

    Does this have anything to do with bikes? Not really, however there is a similar example of a guy
    who, until last month ran a website promoting how "safe" cycling is. He got killed by a motorist
    while biking.

    I wish you well, and I hope you prove me wrong.

    Take care.
     
  8. Zoot Katz

    Zoot Katz Guest

    19 Oct 2003 01:18:39 -0700, <[email protected]>,
    [email protected] (Walter) wrote:

    >> I'm riding on the road because that's the route that actually leads to my destination. My bicycle
    >> is not a toy.
    >
    >Mine is, and mom taught me not to play with my toys in traffic.

    So go play on your trail when you aren't hiding under the bed.

    I'll continue riding where I please.
    --
    zk
     
  9. >I think I qualified this over and over saying that US drivers are by and large idiots.

    From the point of view of a cyclist, you basically have small idiots and large idiots. The larger
    idiots are less numerous.

    I find most drivers to be courteous, but it's the exceptions that stand out.

    --

    _______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________ ------------------"Buddy Holly,
    the Texas Elvis"------------------
    __________306.350.357.38>>[email protected]__________
     
  10. >I find most drivers to be courteous, but it's the exceptions that stand out.

    I know I hosed that sentence.

    If I had my reading glasses, I would have written:

    I find most drivers to be courteous, but some are less so.

    --

    _______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________ ------------------"Buddy Holly,
    the Texas Elvis"------------------
    __________306.350.357.38>>[email protected]__________
     
  11. Peter Cole

    Peter Cole Guest

    "Walter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...

    > I have just started cycling after many years of not. (since I was a kid).

    >. But I believe the best way to end up as "Road Pizza" is to have the attitude that you have as
    > much right to ride on the road as an automobile,

    Why is it that newbies are always delivering lectures?
     
  12. Just a few days past a year ago I was hit by a teenage driver who was talking on a cell phone and
    made a left turn into me as I was traveling through an intersection on my bike. A van passing me in
    my line just at the intersection blocked her view and she didn't care to see that the right-of-way
    was clear after the van passed. I sustained a broken hip, pelvis, ankle, compression fracture of the
    spine and a major laceration on my left leg. I was hospitalized for 8 days and in rehab for months.
    For about three days I was determined I'd never ride on the road again. After that, all I could
    think about was getting back out there. I average around 250 miles per week on the bike and not
    being out there made me feel like a caged animal. And the doctor had some interesting words. She
    said I'd never have survived that wreck were it not for the incredible condition I was in thanks to
    all that cycling.

    So there you go. I'm electing to continue cycling as opposed to sitting on the sofa and letting my
    arteries clog. I know there are other forms of exercise, but with my injuries, I can't run and that
    rules many things out. By coincidence I was in the process of moving to a farm in a rural area when
    I was hit. I've completed that move and I can now do a 50 mile ride and see maybe 10 cars, total ...
    and none with cell phones!

    Ride on!

    Bob C.

    "Walter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Hi,
    >
    > I have just started cycling after many years of not. (since I was a kid).
    >
    > One of the main reasons I have avoided it was a lack of places to go, but I have now found a few
    > places I really like.
    >
    > I try and avoid going near traffic whenever possible. I've driven automobiles for over 25 years in
    > some of the worst traffic, in some of the worst cities in the world. I can honestly say, that with
    > the exception of drivers in Rome, and Moscow, American drivers are the worst, and I am an
    > American.
    >
    > We basically get our driver's licenses by passing a test that a chimpanzee could ace, and the main
    > reason is that given the way our cities are laid out, if you don't drive you don't work.
    >
    > If someone commits vehicular homicide in the US, they will go to jail, but the day of their
    > parole, they will be given a driver's license again, be it on a temporary and limited basis,
    > because the judge knows its basically the only way for this person to earn a living.
    >
    > The plain and simple truth is that drivers don't pay attention to what they are doing, and the
    > driving tests are reduced to the lowest common denominator.
    >
    > This is so Semi-Blind Senior Citizens, Childish Teenagers, Alcoholics, Drug Addicts, Deaf People,
    > etc. can exercise their "right" to drive freely without restrictions. Nobody is going to tell
    > them they can't drive, because they vote, just like we do and the politicians won't tighten up
    > any laws that would anger their constituents, and potentially cause those politicians to lose
    > their jobs.
    >
    > Since we have these people, along with the normal mix of low-grade morons, dim-bulbs, twits,
    > dweebs, air-heads, and other brain-donors driving automobiles in America, people in other
    > Automobiles are at significant risk of injury during the course of their lives.
    >
    > These people don't look for other cars on the road, not to mention bicycles and motorcycles.
    >
    > If you are old enough to have a little gray in your hair, I'm sure you can name at least one or
    > two people you know personally who you have grown up with who has been killed on a motorcycle.
    >
    > Now lets talk bicycles, In my opinion bikes and cars don't mix. That's just the way things are.
    >
    > Don't get me wrong, I wish this wasn't the case, and I think we should all try to change things
    > for the better. But I believe the best way to end up as "Road Pizza" is to have the attitude that
    > you have as much right to ride on the road as an automobile, and you are going to exercise that
    > right without regard to the reality that the most people who are zooming inches away from you
    > aren't even conscience you exist.
     
  13. Cathy Kearns

    Cathy Kearns Guest

    "Walter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "Mike Kruger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > > "Walter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > > >
    > > > Ride on the street all you want, but when the laws if physics catch up to you, don't come
    > > > crying to me about it.
    > > >
    > > > I'm staying on the bike paths,
    > > >
    > > That's probably a good thing. You should not ride where you feel insecure, and you
    > > obviously don't
    feel
    > > secure on the road.
    > >
    > > You are doing what is, for you personally, the right thing at this time.
    > >
    > > Mike Kruger
    >
    >
    > Thank you. I agree 100 percent!

    Little story, my husband and I like to go road biking for exercise. We have plenty of experience and
    feel fairly comfortable tooling down roads with lots of traffic and reasonable shoulder bike lanes.
    (Okay, sometime a little traffic and no shoulders whatsoever...) However, we don't feel comfortable
    having our kids do that. So, when the school moved a mile away for a year I dutifully figured out
    routes to the new school that took us on quiet residential streets. As part of the bike to school
    committee I published those streets for the kids and their parents. And then we rode our kids out
    through these quiet streets. But afterward we would take the direct busy four lane with shoulder
    bike lanes road home. One day we were chatting with a friend who also road his daughter to school
    the back way. As we were saddling up for the ride home he took the turn with us, and sped the mile
    home with the cars. When we got back to our quiet neighborhood he said he was hooked! He loved
    riding with traffic, it gave him an adrenaline rush. And after dropping kids, that was his preferred
    route home.

    Bike paths are great for those who recognize there are joggers and walkers with strollers and other
    folks that go reasonable, but not fast speeds. As long as you are satisfied going speeds you can
    quickly stop for the errant darting toddler or the dog that wraps it's owner up in the leash, you
    are welcome on those paths. Once you find the need for speed, please move to the roads, where at
    20mph you won't kill a slower moving recreationist.
     
  14. Cathy Kearns

    Cathy Kearns Guest

    "Walter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > I think I qualified this over and over saying that US drivers are by and large idiots. I lived in
    > Europe and the drivers there are MUCH better than the US. Hence they watch out for cyclists more.
    > However there are still a lot more bike paths in Europe than their ever are going to be in this
    > country.

    I don't know about European bike paths, my travels in France didn't run across any, but you are
    right, the drivers in France gave bikes much more respect than they do in the US. It could be
    because if you hit a cyclist in France you lose your license, and spend a bit of time in jail. If
    they are caught passing closer than a meter they get ticketed. It's considered just as bad injuring
    a cyclist with your vehicle as it is injuring someone else in a car. There are less things society
    considers "accidents", and drivers need to be more responsible, or they aren't allowed to be
    drivers. If those types of laws were to be passed in the US, the drivers would magically get better.
     
  15. >He loved riding with traffic, it gave him an adrenaline rush.

    Your use of the past tense leads me to believe he didn't survive?

    --

    _______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________ ------------------"Buddy Holly,
    the Texas Elvis"------------------
    __________306.350.357.38>>[email protected]__________
     
  16. Pete

    Pete Guest

    "Walter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >
    > Also, I don't think they let bicycles on the Autobahn, and the Germans are smart enough not to
    > want to go there on bikes anyway.

    Similarly, bikes are not allowed on 99.9% of the interstate highways here.

    And, as in Germany, legal on every other type of road.

    Pete
     
  17. Cathy Kearns

    Cathy Kearns Guest

    "Eric S. Sande" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > >He loved riding with traffic, it gave him an adrenaline rush.
    >
    > Your use of the past tense leads me to believe he didn't survive?

    Nah, nothing that exciting, the school moved back to our neighborhood.

    >
    > --
    >
    > _______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________ ------------------"Buddy Holly,
    > the Texas Elvis"------------------
    > __________306.350.357.38>>[email protected]__________
     
  18. >Nah, nothing that exciting, the school moved back to our neighborhood.

    What a relief. I was just checking before I read you the riot act on traffic cycling.

    I don't have to do that anymore.

    --

    _______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________ ------------------"Buddy Holly,
    the Texas Elvis"------------------
    __________306.350.357.38>>[email protected]__________
     
  19. Kevan Smith

    Kevan Smith Guest

    On 19 Oct 2003 01:58:23 -0700, [email protected] (Walter) from
    http://groups.google.com wrote:

    >Does this have anything to do with bikes? Not really, however there is a similar example of a guy
    >who, until last month ran a website promoting how "safe" cycling is. He got killed by a motorist
    >while biking.

    He got killed by a drunk driver. Drunk drivers kill plenty of other people not riding bikes, too.
    In fact, drunk driving is illegal in every state. Ken Kifer's death was not caused by your
    so-called observance that bikes and cars don't mix. It was caused by the fact that booze and
    driving don't mix.
    --
    real e-mail addy: kevansmith23 at yahoo dot com What a COINCIDENCE! I'm an authorized "SNOOTS OF THE
    STARS" dealer!!
     
  20. Walter

    Walter Guest

    > >> I'm riding on the road because that's the route that actually leads to my destination. My
    > >> bicycle is not a toy.
    > >
    > >Mine is, and mom taught me not to play with my toys in traffic.
    >
    > So go play on your trail when you aren't hiding under the bed.
    >
    > I'll continue riding where I please.

    I would say have fun, and good luck, but since your bike is not a toy, I can only say good luck and
    be happy in your work.
     
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