In the US, Automobiles and bikes don't mix very well.

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Walter, Oct 17, 2003.

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  1. Kevan Smith

    Kevan Smith Guest

    On 19 Oct 2003 18:01:20 -0700, [email protected] (Walter) from
    http://groups.google.com wrote:

    >Ok, I give up.

    Mr. Noisy gave up!

    >good luck...

    Auf Wiedersehen.

    --
    real e-mail addy: kevansmith23 at yahoo dot com My vaseline is RUNNING...
     


  2. Zoot Katz

    Zoot Katz Guest

    19 Oct 2003 17:10:44 -0700, <[email protected]>,
    [email protected] (Walter) wrote:

    >Or anyway place where there is a low amount of fairly slow moving traffic.

    Downtown, there's a high volume of slow moving traffic. Bikes are even better there.
    --
    zk
     
  3. Walter

    Walter Guest

    > Most people don't bother with this crap and do their own thing.
    >
    > The problem with that is that people get killed that way.
    >
    > I'm not kidding when I say I've seen many tens of cyclists die over the years in my own area. That
    > might be two or three a year but it adds up.

    You Heretic!!

    You Infidel !!

    Just kidding, although you are not going to make very many friends here..

    :)
     
  4. >Just kidding, although you are not going to make very many friends here..

    Oh, I have always relied on the kindness of strangers.

    --

    _______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________ ------------------"Buddy Holly,
    the Texas Elvis"------------------
    __________306.350.357.38>>[email protected]__________
     
  5. Pete

    Pete Guest

    "Walter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > > The view and perceptions from behind the wheel of a car are
    *significantly*
    > > different than that from a bike.
    > >
    >
    > Ok, I give up.
    >
    > good luck...

    Don't just give up.

    See the light.

    Pete
     
  6. Zoot Katz

    Zoot Katz Guest

    Mon, 20 Oct 2003 03:23:17 GMT, <[email protected]>, "Pete"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >> > The view and perceptions from behind the wheel of a car are *significantly* different than that
    >> > from a bike.
    >> >
    >>
    >> Ok, I give up.
    >>
    >> good luck...
    >
    >Don't just give up.
    >
    >See the light.
    >
    Eeeek!

    I knew three people hit by freight trains on the bike path.

    Run! Hide!
    --
    zk
     
  7. Walter wrote:
    >
    > > I'm riding on the road because that's the route that actually leads to my destination. My
    > > bicycle is not a toy.
    >
    > Mine is, and mom taught me not to play with my toys in traffic.

    Some types of motor vehicles are quite often considered "toys". Someone buys a little Miyata
    "sports" car, or perhaps even an SUV.

    Use it to go play or use it for practical purposes.

    A bike doesn't have to be considered only a toy. Its valid definition is solely in the mind
    of the user.

    SMH
     
  8. On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 10:26:26 -0700, Walter wrote:

    > Here is what one of those enlightened socialist countries thinks of bikes and traffic.
    >
    > http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/asiapcf/9810/28/china.bicycle.ban/index.html
    >
    > Beijing authorities ban cyclists on busy street

    Good one. Comparing enlightened European nations with psuedo-socialist leanings with a totalitarian
    dictatorship oligarchy. Not a very fair comparison. Beijing authorities aren't socialists. They're
    members of an oligarchy who benefit from China's interesting mix of capitalism and civil rights
    oppression.

    Preston
     
  9. On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 01:18:39 -0700, Walter wrote:

    >> I'm riding on the road because that's the route that actually leads to my destination. My bicycle
    >> is not a toy.
    >
    > Mine is, and mom taught me not to play with my toys in traffic.

    Sounds like you need to move back in with your mom if she gives such great advice. I, however, am an
    adult and have left the home and since I need to get to work and choose to do so by bike, I don't
    ride a toy. I ride a vehicle that gets me exercise and makes me feel good and helped me lose 150lbs.
    My toy is my Gameboy. My bike is my vehicle.

    Funny thing is, as another poster pointed out, most commercials about SUVs, sports cars, etc. gear
    themselves towards portraying the vehicle in question as a toy and the driver (usually male) as some
    big child that loves to tear up the asphalt and basically drive recklessly around other drivers. I
    always found that so humorous. If cars are toys to a lot of people out there, then why do some of
    you insist on calling bikes toys? There was a time when bikes were a superior mode of transportation
    to walking, nothing more.

    Preston
     
  10. On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 01:17:40 -0700, Walter wrote:

    >>
    >> Maybe you can rattle off all the people you know who died in automobiles. I guess that would
    >> prove cars and cars don't mix.
    >>
    >
    > I can think of two, and I'm sure there are more, but I do know of a lot more on motorcycles. It
    > proves nothing.

    It proves that "traffic" is dangerous, often as a result of bad drivers treating their giant SUVs
    like toys. Thus, the idea that bikes are toys and don't belong in traffic is stupid.

    Preston
     
  11. On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 18:35:47 -0700, Zoot Katz wrote:

    > 19 Oct 2003 17:10:44 -0700, <[email protected]>,
    > [email protected] (Walter) wrote:
    >
    >>Or anyway place where there is a low amount of fairly slow moving traffic.
    >
    > Downtown, there's a high volume of slow moving traffic. Bikes are even better there.

    Oh yeah. Downtown's the best place to ride. You can get ahead of cars at lights and basically go
    faster than the rest of traffic. It's awesome. Good thing my mommy never called my bike a toy.

    Preston
     
  12. John

    John Guest

    Walter, thank you for removing yourself and your bike from the road and sticking to the trail.
    Realizing you don't have the aptitude to bike in traffic is quite an admission for someone that
    "just started cycling after many years of not." Best of all, you won't be embarrasing those of us
    that do know how to ride in traffic...and you'd probably just be in our way anyway.

    [email protected] (Walter) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > Hi,
    >
    > I have just started cycling after many years of not. (since I was a kid).
    >
    > One of the main reasons I have avoided it was a lack of places to go, but I have now found a few
    > places I really like.
    >
    > I try and avoid going near traffic whenever possible. I've driven automobiles for over 25 years in
    > some of the worst traffic, in some of the worst cities in the world. I can honestly say, that with
    > the exception of drivers in Rome, and Moscow, American drivers are the worst, and I am an
    > American.
    >
    > We basically get our driver's licenses by passing a test that a chimpanzee could ace, and the main
    > reason is that given the way our cities are laid out, if you don't drive you don't work.
    >
    > If someone commits vehicular homicide in the US, they will go to jail, but the day of their
    > parole, they will be given a driver's license again, be it on a temporary and limited basis,
    > because the judge knows its basically the only way for this person to earn a living.
    >
    > The plain and simple truth is that drivers don't pay attention to what they are doing, and the
    > driving tests are reduced to the lowest common denominator.
    >
    > This is so Semi-Blind Senior Citizens, Childish Teenagers, Alcoholics, Drug Addicts, Deaf People,
    > etc. can exercise their "right" to drive freely without restrictions. Nobody is going to tell
    > them they can't drive, because they vote, just like we do and the politicians won't tighten up
    > any laws that would anger their constituents, and potentially cause those politicians to lose
    > their jobs.
    >
    > Since we have these people, along with the normal mix of low-grade morons, dim-bulbs, twits,
    > dweebs, air-heads, and other brain-donors driving automobiles in America, people in other
    > Automobiles are at significant risk of injury during the course of their lives.
    >
    > These people don't look for other cars on the road, not to mention bicycles and motorcycles.
    >
    > If you are old enough to have a little gray in your hair, I'm sure you can name at least one or
    > two people you know personally who you have grown up with who has been killed on a motorcycle.
    >
    > Now lets talk bicycles, In my opinion bikes and cars don't mix. That's just the way things are.
    >
    > Don't get me wrong, I wish this wasn't the case, and I think we should all try to change things
    > for the better. But I believe the best way to end up as "Road Pizza" is to have the attitude that
    > you have as much right to ride on the road as an automobile, and you are going to exercise that
    > right without regard to the reality that the most people who are zooming inches away from you
    > aren't even conscience you exist.
     
  13. "Pete" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > "Walter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >
    > > Also, I don't think they let bicycles on the Autobahn, and the Germans are smart enough not to
    > > want to go there on bikes anyway.
    >
    > Similarly, bikes are not allowed on 99.9% of the interstate highways here.
    >

    Not so. Bikes are allowed on at least some freeways in most western states.

    My family and I have cycled hundreds of miles on freeways. Some are unpleasantly noisy, some are
    boring, but many are quite pleasant, and they're almost always perfectly safe for cycling.

    - Frank Krygowski
     
  14. Kevan Smith

    Kevan Smith Guest

    On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 15:02:33 GMT, "Preston Crawford" <[email protected]> from EarthLink Inc. --
    http://www.EarthLink.net wrote:

    >Beijing authorities aren't socialists. They're members of an oligarchy who benefit from China's
    >interesting mix of capitalism and civil rights oppression.

    Replace Beijing with DC and it still holds!

    --
    real e-mail addy: kevansmith23 at yahoo dot com I'm rated PG-34!!
     
  15. [email protected] (Walter) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > > I'm riding on the road because that's the route that actually leads to my destination. My
    > > bicycle is not a toy.
    >
    > Mine is, and mom taught me not to play with my toys in traffic.

    If _your_ bicycle is merely a toy, and you're going to keep that childish attitude, you're correct:
    you don't belong in traffic. LIsten to your mommie.

    OTOH, you have no business lecturing those whose maturity, experience and knowledge exceed your own.

    At the moment, it really looks like you're the least experienced, least knowledgeable person in this
    discussion! Why are you bothering to post??

    - Frank Krygowski
     
  16. Kevan Smith

    Kevan Smith Guest

    On 20 Oct 2003 10:33:09 -0700, [email protected] (Frank Krygowski) from
    http://groups.google.com wrote:

    >At the moment, it really looks like you're the least experienced, least knowledgeable person in
    >this discussion! Why are you bothering to post??

    He's the best troll we've had for ages. He even managed to slyly insert helmets
    in. OTOH, if he's serious and sticks around for awhile, we'll have him popping wheelies on the
    interstate and slapping "one less car" stickers all over town before he can say "gabba gabba
    hey, one of us, one of us."

    --
    real e-mail addy: kevansmith23 at yahoo dot com I feel partially hydrogenated!
     
  17. [email protected] (Walter) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...

    > I think I qualified this over and over saying that US drivers are by and large idiots. I lived in
    > Europe and the drivers there are MUCH better than the US. Hence they watch out for cyclists more.
    > However there are still a lot more bike paths in Europe than their ever are going to be in this
    > country.

    My husband lived in Berlin, Germany for 20 years, much of that time as a car-free cyclist who did
    both commuting and recreational riding. I spent several months riding there with him.

    He thinks the drivers in California are better than the German drivers. I thought the Germans were
    better than the Californians. YMMV.

    In Berlin, many of the traffic laws were honored more in the breach than in the observance. Drivers
    cut off cyclists, passed too closely, and so on. Cyclists rode without the required front and rear
    lights, rode the wrong way, ran stop signs, and so on. Having laws is good, but not enough,
    obviously.

    Also, there are some mandatory sidepath laws in Germany (also much ignored). And some of the
    designated bike paths are rutted sidewalks, or in other ways useless and dangerous.

    Stella
     
  18. David Kerber

    David Kerber Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...

    ...

    > In Berlin, many of the traffic laws were honored more in the breach than in the observance.
    > Drivers cut off cyclists, passed too closely, and so on. Cyclists rode without the required front
    > and rear lights, rode the wrong way, ran stop signs, and so on. Having laws is good, but not
    > enough, obviously.

    Sounds just like the US!
     
  19. Walter

    Walter Guest

    > I have no idea why you are so upset about other peoples' choices.

    I'm not. I'm just amazed at the level of denial on this site. Even when Veteran cyclists tell you in
    no uncertain terms that bicycling has an elevated level of risk over riding in a passenger car, you
    don't believe it. There have been numerous veteran cyclists acknowledge the dangers, but for them
    its worth it. Thats fine.

    > Enjoy the bike path, and be polite to the rest of us on the road when you roar by in your SUV.
    > Pretty simple, isn't it?

    I will, I promise. Even if others don't.
     
  20. Walter

    Walter Guest

    > On top of this, a very good British study estimated the health benefits of bicycling outweighted
    > any risk by a 20-to-1 ratio.
    >
    Riding in Europe is different that the US (note the title of the post)

    > You seem to enjoy lumping all non-automobile road users into the same category.

    I can't help it if nobody is funded a study that breaks down the stats between bikes and
    people walking.

    > Motorcycling is dangerous because of the available speed. Motorcyclists have the advantage of
    > better maneuveribility and better views of the road, but the speed trumps. Bicycles have the same
    > advantages without the temptation of speed.
    >

    All true, and bikes are even harder to see on the road than motorcycles. (this is coming from a
    veteran motorist.... ME)

    > But by all means, stay off the road until you learn how to follow the rules of the road.

    I already know them, but that still won't get me on the road in heavy traffic.
     
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