In Today's Episode of As The Giro Turns...

[Howard Kveck]

In article <[email protected]>,
"Jeff Jones" <jeff@cyclingnews-punt-com> wrote:

> P+P should pay more attention ;-)
>
> Jeff


Easy for you to say, Jeff... (heh)

--
tanx,
Howard

"Moby **** was a work of art, What the hell happened?"


remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

 

[Jesse Thompson]

"Jeff Jones" <jeff@cyclingnews-punt-com> wrote:


> P+P should pay more attention ;-)
>
> Jeff

They were really off yesterday.

They kept talking on and on about Simoni "not having it today". What
was he supposed to do, drag everyone up to Cunego and blow Saeco's big
game?

He was totally stuck. Only chance Simoni had was if the group caught
Cunego for him, which they couldn't do...

 

[Robert Chung]

Jesse Thompson wrote:
>
> He was totally stuck. Only chance Simoni had was if the group caught
> Cunego for him, which they couldn't do...

That must be the underlying reason why he was critical of Popovych for not
being more active in protecting the maglia rosa.

 

[David N. Welton]

jesseth@removethis_gwi.net (Jesse Thompson) writes:

> They kept talking on and on about Simoni "not having it today".
> What was he supposed to do, drag everyone up to Cunego and blow
> Saeco's big game?

> He was totally stuck. Only chance Simoni had was if the group
> caught Cunego for him, which they couldn't do...

cyclingnews talked about Simoni having a go which was very closely
followed by Popo. Then Cunego went and no one followed.

This leads me to wonder: did Simoni not go hard enough - was Cunego's
acceleration that much more powerful? Or did they just not consider
him dangerous enough (which in retrospect was a big mistake)? I think
it would have been necessary to have watched to get a good answer to
these questions.

--
David N. Welton
Consulting: http://www.dedasys.com/
Personal: http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/
Free Software: http://www.dedasys.com/freesoftware/
Apache Tcl: http://tcl.apache.org/

 

[Jeff Jones]

"David N. Welton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> jesseth@removethis_gwi.net (Jesse Thompson) writes:
>
> cyclingnews talked about Simoni having a go which was very closely
> followed by Popo. Then Cunego went and no one followed.
>
> This leads me to wonder: did Simoni not go hard enough - was Cunego's
> acceleration that much more powerful? Or did they just not consider
> him dangerous enough (which in retrospect was a big mistake)? I think
> it would have been necessary to have watched to get a good answer to
> these questions.
>
Simoni's first attack wasn't bad, as it put a lot of riders in difficulty
like Garzelli and Pellizotti and got rid of most of the peloton. But
Popovych was marking him so he sat up a bit. Then when Cunego went, no-one
reacted as a) it was a good attack and they probably didn't have the gas and
b) they were more interested in Simoni. Figueras said that he should have
gone with Cunego, but didn't. Them's the breaks.

What did surprise me was how much time Cunego gained before they really
started to chase. He had something like 3 minutes before Alessio regrouped
and led the tempo making. There were more riders in that bunch who could
have contributed too.

Jeff

 

[Kenny]

"Robert Chung" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Jesse Thompson wrote:
> >
> > He was totally stuck. Only chance Simoni had was if the group caught
> > Cunego for him, which they couldn't do...
>
> That must be the underlying reason why he was critical of Popovych for not
> being more active in protecting the maglia rosa.

That's true, but you gotta know that Landbouwkrediet-Colnago does not
have a team to control the race for his leader in a mountain stage.

 

[Robert Chung]

Kenny wrote:
> "Robert Chung" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>> Jesse Thompson wrote:
>>>
>>> He was totally stuck. Only chance Simoni had was if the group caught
>>> Cunego for him, which they couldn't do...
>>
>> That must be the underlying reason why he was critical of Popovych for
>> not being more active in protecting the maglia rosa.
>
> That's true, but you gotta know that Landbouwkrediet-Colnago does not
> have a team to control the race for his leader in a mountain stage.

Absolutely, and that is one of the reasons why it sounded so strange for
Simoni to make those comments: the only context that it makes sense is
that although he understood that he couldn't drag the groupo maglia rosa
up to Cunego, he was hoping against hope that someone else would. Since
Popovych and Pellizotti and (G|H)on(t)char couldn't do it, all he could do
was grit his teeth and watch his own chances go down the toilet.

 

[Robert Chung]

Jeff Jones wrote:
>
> What did surprise me was how much time Cunego gained before they really
> started to chase. He had something like 3 minutes before Alessio
> regrouped and led the tempo making. There were more riders in that
> bunch who could have contributed too.

I was surprised that most of the time was made up by Mazzoleni leading the
way for Cunego on the descent of the Furcia -- I think Cunego had less
than a minute on Popovych (and Simoni) at the top. Tonti had fun waving
and mugging at the camera when he dropped out of the big leading group to
wait for Mazzoleni and Cunego, then went to serious work when they caught
up.

 

[Richard Adams]

[email protected] (David N. Welton) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> jesseth@removethis_gwi.net (Jesse Thompson) writes:
>
> > They kept talking on and on about Simoni "not having it today".
> > What was he supposed to do, drag everyone up to Cunego and blow
> > Saeco's big game?
>
> > He was totally stuck. Only chance Simoni had was if the group
> > caught Cunego for him, which they couldn't do...
>
> cyclingnews talked about Simoni having a go which was very closely
> followed by Popo. Then Cunego went and no one followed.
>
> This leads me to wonder: did Simoni not go hard enough - was Cunego's
> acceleration that much more powerful? Or did they just not consider
> him dangerous enough (which in retrospect was a big mistake)? I think
> it would have been necessary to have watched to get a good answer to
> these questions.

I expect Simoni said, "Go up the road, I'll join you after I shake
these losers and we'll 1/2 the finish." To which Cunego repied,
"Gotcha."

--Ziiiiip--

Then Gibo waits a to see if anyone rises to the bait and when they
don't tries to hit the gas himself.

-pokitta- -pokitta- -pokitta- -POONK!-

And then wisely decides to just eyeball Popo and noodle along with the
group.

Meanwhile, Cunego gets word that Gibo is going to sit tight so he
kicks in the afterburners, knowing he has a rest day coming up to
recover and leaves it all on the road, burying everyone, including
Gibo.

Works out well for Damiano Cunego (that name again C-U-N-E-G-O, soon
to be avalible on lunch boxes, glasses, commemorative plates and his
own exclusive brand of chamois lube (with or without capers)), as he's
got such a lead it's now unthinkable to have him working for Simoni.

Looking back at the dominance of the Giro by two teams, it's pretty
much a bummer that so few of the top teams chose to come play. Sad
too, that Kelme-CV (featureing Valverde) was told not to come.

 

[Wayne Pein]

Tom Schulenburg wrote:

> "Wayne Pein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Anybody have a clue as to why Wegmann absolutely buried himself on the
> flats
> > with the Cunego group that had 2 other Saecos, only to pop like a balloon
> well
> > before they even got to the final climb? Phil couldn't figure it out.
> Perhaps
> > Wegmann is pitching for a switch to Saeco or Saeco offered reparations? Or
> is
> > he just a dope?
> >
> > Wayne
> >
>
> Wegmann is not a climber and wasn't going to pick up any points on the final
> climb regardless. By helping Saeco out, they'll let him attack early and
> pick up a few more mountain points to ensure he holds the Green.
>
> -T

Yes, makes total sense. Reparations in the form of Green jersey, not in that
other green.

But I thought it was illegal for teams to collude. With Cunego quoted as saying
Wegmann is his friend and he will help him to the green, that is clearly
collusion.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/may04/may26news2


I think the analysis in this thread has been spot on.

I wonder if there are fractured allegiances within Saeco. Clearly Tonti and
Mazzo must have known they were putting alleged team leader Gibo into a
difficult situation, and Cunego was all too happy to turn the screws as tight as
possible. I'm looking forward to Cunego vs Cibo. I wonder if Cibo is saving
something for Le Tour?

Wayne

 

[Tom Schulenburg]

"Robert Chung" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Jeff Jones wrote:
> >
> > What did surprise me was how much time Cunego gained before they really
> > started to chase. He had something like 3 minutes before Alessio
> > regrouped and led the tempo making. There were more riders in that
> > bunch who could have contributed too.
>
> I was surprised that most of the time was made up by Mazzoleni leading the
> way for Cunego on the descent of the Furcia -- I think Cunego had less
> than a minute on Popovych (and Simoni) at the top. Tonti had fun waving
> and mugging at the camera when he dropped out of the big leading group to
> wait for Mazzoleni and Cunego, then went to serious work when they caught
> up.
>


It sounded like it was a miscalculation by Simoni/Saeco. I think they
really expected Popo and Garzelli to chase. Maybe they should have had Tonti
and Mazzoleni drop back and help Simoni on the attack?

-T

 

[Robert Chung]

Wayne Pein wrote:
> But I thought it was illegal for teams to collude.

The collusion is what makes cycling so much more interesting than other
sports.

 

[Robert Chung]

Tom Schulenburg wrote:
>
> It sounded like it was a miscalculation by Simoni/Saeco. I think they
> really expected Popo and Garzelli to chase.

Remember that in stage 3 a roughly similar setup occurred: Cunego
attacked, Popovych reacted and basically pulled Simoni up, then Simoni
countered and won the stage and the pink jersey. I think that's why
Popovych didn't try to go with Cunego -- he was afraid that it would turn
out the same way again, and he wasn't going to get burned the same way
twice (instead, he got burned a different way). Ewoud pointed out that
Popovych predicted that Cunego would go on the Forcia, and that he would
not respond.

> Maybe they should have had
> Tonti and Mazzoleni drop back and help Simoni on the attack?

That would have been nuts.

 

[Faster Bordello]

Wayne Pein wrote:

> Tom Schulenburg wrote:
>
>
>>"Wayne Pein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>Anybody have a clue as to why Wegmann absolutely buried himself on the
>>
>>flats
>>
>>>with the Cunego group that had 2 other Saecos, only to pop like a balloon
>>
>>well
>>
>>>before they even got to the final climb? Phil couldn't figure it out.
>>
>>Perhaps
>>
>>>Wegmann is pitching for a switch to Saeco or Saeco offered reparations? Or
>>
>>is
>>
>>>he just a dope?
>>>
>>>Wayne
>>>
>>
>>Wegmann is not a climber and wasn't going to pick up any points on the final
>>climb regardless. By helping Saeco out, they'll let him attack early and
>>pick up a few more mountain points to ensure he holds the Green.
>>
>>-T
>
>
> Yes, makes total sense. Reparations in the form of Green jersey, not in that
> other green.
>
> But I thought it was illegal for teams to collude. With Cunego quoted as saying
> Wegmann is his friend and he will help him to the green, that is clearly
> collusion.
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/may04/may26news2
>
>
> I think the analysis in this thread has been spot on.
>
> I wonder if there are fractured allegiances within Saeco. Clearly Tonti and
> Mazzo must have known they were putting alleged team leader Gibo into a
> difficult situation, and Cunego was all too happy to turn the screws as tight as
> possible. I'm looking forward to Cunego vs Cibo. I wonder if Cibo is saving
> something for Le Tour?
>
> Wayne
>
>
>
The way I understood "collusion" is that it's veerry baaad for two teams
to work together for one rider (like they all feared QSD and Relax might
do). Whereas the "little deals" that take place such as yesterdays
"I'll let you hold your green jersey as long as you work in my break"
are the fun part of cycling.....

 

[Tom Schulenburg]

"Robert Chung" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Tom Schulenburg wrote:
> >
> > It sounded like it was a miscalculation by Simoni/Saeco. I think they
> > really expected Popo and Garzelli to chase.
>
> Remember that in stage 3 a roughly similar setup occurred: Cunego
> attacked, Popovych reacted and basically pulled Simoni up, then Simoni
> countered and won the stage and the pink jersey. I think that's why
> Popovych didn't try to go with Cunego -- he was afraid that it would turn
> out the same way again, and he wasn't going to get burned the same way
> twice (instead, he got burned a different way). Ewoud pointed out that
> Popovych predicted that Cunego would go on the Forcia, and that he would
> not respond.
>
> > Maybe they should have had
> > Tonti and Mazzoleni drop back and help Simoni on the attack?
>
> That would have been nuts.
>
>

I guess the bigger question is how commited Saeco is/was to having Simoni
win the race? Did they really need to screw around with having Cunego
attack? I thought Simoni was strong enough to take away the time from Popo
on his own (over the remaining stages.) Are they more worried about Gonchar
at this point?

-T

 

[Wayne Pein]

Faster Bordello wrote:

>
> The way I understood "collusion" is that it's veerry baaad for two teams
> to work together for one rider (like they all feared QSD and Relax might
> do). Whereas the "little deals" that take place such as yesterdays
> "I'll let you hold your green jersey as long as you work in my break"
> are the fun part of cycling.....

It's hard to believe that the Green jersey is considered a "little deal," on the same
level as adversaries working together in the break. This is especially true when
Cunego boldly announces the deal to the media. I think Saeco and Gerol should be
fined.

Wayne

 

[Bob Schwartz]

Wayne Pein <[email protected]> wrote:
> I think Saeco and Gerol should be fined.

That would teach riders to not talk about it. It'd still
happen though.

The major North American sports would work the same way
if there were multiple teams in play on the same field.
You can't stop people from talking to each other.

And count me among those that think it adds to the sport
rather than detracts from it.

Bob Schwartz
[email protected]

 

[Robert Chung]

Tom Schulenburg wrote:
>
> I guess the bigger question is how commited Saeco is/was to having
> Simoni win the race? Did they really need to screw around with having
> Cunego attack? I thought Simoni was strong enough to take away the
> time from Popo on his own (over the remaining stages.) Are they more
> worried about Gonchar at this point?

I think that most teams usually commit to whoever they think has the best
chance of winning. Saeco was in the luxurious position of having a one-two
combo: you go with the Cunego attack as Popovych did in stage 3, and
Simoni burns you on the counter; having been thus burned by the Cunego
feint, you stay with Simoni, as Popovych did in stage 16, and Cunego waves
good-bye and takes the pink. Popovych was isolated; perhaps just as
importantly, Noe was also isolated since Pellizotti was OTB. The Alessio
chase couldn't begin until Cunego was so far up the road that the issue at
that point was just damage control. Having two Saecos up the road (Tonti
in the early break, Mazzoleni halfway up) was key.

Very cool. To steal Tosi's line, it was like the long preparation for a
knife hit.

 

[Bob Schwartz]

Robert Chung <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Maybe they should have had
>> Tonti and Mazzoleni drop back and help Simoni on the attack?

> That would have been nuts.

I think it would have been a great caper.

Bob Schwartz
[email protected]

 

[Kenny]

"Tom Schulenburg" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "Robert Chung" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Tom Schulenburg wrote:
> > >
> > > It sounded like it was a miscalculation by Simoni/Saeco. I think they
> > > really expected Popo and Garzelli to chase.
> >
> > Remember that in stage 3 a roughly similar setup occurred: Cunego
> > attacked, Popovych reacted and basically pulled Simoni up, then Simoni
> > countered and won the stage and the pink jersey. I think that's why
> > Popovych didn't try to go with Cunego -- he was afraid that it would turn
> > out the same way again, and he wasn't going to get burned the same way
> > twice (instead, he got burned a different way). Ewoud pointed out that
> > Popovych predicted that Cunego would go on the Forcia, and that he would
> > not respond.
> >
> > > Maybe they should have had
> > > Tonti and Mazzoleni drop back and help Simoni on the attack?
> >
> > That would have been nuts.
> >
> >
>
> I guess the bigger question is how commited Saeco is/was to having Simoni
> win the race? Did they really need to screw around with having Cunego
> attack? I thought Simoni was strong enough to take away the time from Popo
> on his own (over the remaining stages.) Are they more worried about Gonchar
> at this point?

I wonder how serious Gontchar's threat would be if there were two ITT
(as usual in GT's) in this year's Giro. He never climbed better than
this year, now finishing 5th in the group of cunego on Bormeo.