In Today's Episode of As The Giro Turns...

[Jesse Thompson]

"Jeff Jones" <jeff@cyclingnews-punt-com> wrote:

> P+P should pay more attention ;-)
>
> Jeff

They were really off yesterday.

They kept talking on and on about Simoni "not having it
today". What was he supposed to do, drag everyone up to
Cunego and blow Saeco's big game?

He was totally stuck. Only chance Simoni had was if the
group caught Cunego for him, which they couldn't do...

 

[Robert Chung]

Jesse Thompson wrote:
>
> He was totally stuck. Only chance Simoni had was if the
> group caught Cunego for him, which they couldn't do...

That must be the underlying reason why he was critical of
Popovych for not being more active in protecting the
maglia rosa.

 

[David N. Welton]

jesseth@removethis_gwi.net (Jesse Thompson) writes:

> They kept talking on and on about Simoni "not having it
> today". What was he supposed to do, drag everyone up to
> Cunego and blow Saeco's big game?

> He was totally stuck. Only chance Simoni had was if the
> group caught Cunego for him, which they couldn't do...

cyclingnews talked about Simoni having a go which was
very closely followed by Popo. Then Cunego went and no
one followed.

This leads me to wonder: did Simoni not go hard enough - was
Cunego's acceleration that much more powerful? Or did they
just not consider him dangerous enough (which in retrospect
was a big mistake)? I think it would have been necessary to
have watched to get a good answer to these questions.

--
David N. Welton Consulting: http://www.dedasys.com/
Personal: http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/ Free Software:
http://www.dedasys.com/freesoftware/ Apache Tcl:
http://tcl.apache.org/

 

[Jeff Jones]

"David N. Welton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> jesseth@removethis_gwi.net (Jesse Thompson) writes:
>
> cyclingnews talked about Simoni having a go which was very
> closely followed by Popo. Then Cunego went and no one
> followed.
>
> This leads me to wonder: did Simoni not go hard enough -
> was Cunego's acceleration that much more powerful? Or did
> they just not consider him dangerous enough (which in
> retrospect was a big mistake)? I think it would have been
> necessary to have watched to get a good answer to these
> questions.
>
Simoni's first attack wasn't bad, as it put a lot of riders
in difficulty like Garzelli and Pellizotti and got rid of
most of the peloton. But Popovych was marking him so he sat
up a bit. Then when Cunego went, no-one reacted as a) it was
a good attack and they probably didn't have the gas and
b) they were more interested in Simoni. Figueras said
that he should have gone with Cunego, but didn't.
Them's the breaks.

What did surprise me was how much time Cunego gained before
they really started to chase. He had something like 3
minutes before Alessio regrouped and led the tempo making.
There were more riders in that bunch who could have
contributed too.

Jeff

 

[Kenny]

"Robert Chung" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Jesse Thompson wrote:
> >
> > He was totally stuck. Only chance Simoni had was if the
> > group caught Cunego for him, which they couldn't do...
>
> That must be the underlying reason why he was critical of
> Popovych for not being more active in protecting the
> maglia rosa.

That's true, but you gotta know that Landbouwkrediet-Colnago
does not have a team to control the race for his leader in a
mountain stage.

 

[Robert Chung]

Kenny wrote:
> "Robert Chung" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<2hlgskF6rnf8U1@uni-
> berlin.de>...
>> Jesse Thompson wrote:
>>>
>>> He was totally stuck. Only chance Simoni had was if the
>>> group caught Cunego for him, which they couldn't do...
>>
>> That must be the underlying reason why he was critical of
>> Popovych for not being more active in protecting the
>> maglia rosa.
>
> That's true, but you gotta know that Landbouwkrediet-
> Colnago does not have a team to control the race for his
> leader in a mountain stage.

Absolutely, and that is one of the reasons why it sounded so
strange for Simoni to make those comments: the only context
that it makes sense is that although he understood that he
couldn't drag the groupo maglia rosa up to Cunego, he was
hoping against hope that someone else would. Since Popovych
and Pellizotti and (G|H)on(t)char couldn't do it, all he
could do was grit his teeth and watch his own chances go
down the toilet.

 

[Robert Chung]

Jeff Jones wrote:
>
> What did surprise me was how much time Cunego gained
> before they really started to chase. He had something like
> 3 minutes before Alessio regrouped and led the tempo
> making. There were more riders in that bunch who could
> have contributed too.

I was surprised that most of the time was made up by
Mazzoleni leading the way for Cunego on the descent of the
Furcia -- I think Cunego had less than a minute on Popovych
(and Simoni) at the top. Tonti had fun waving and mugging at
the camera when he dropped out of the big leading group to
wait for Mazzoleni and Cunego, then went to serious work
when they caught up.

 

[Richard Adams]

[email protected] (David N. Welton) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> jesseth@removethis_gwi.net (Jesse Thompson) writes:
>
> > They kept talking on and on about Simoni "not having it
> > today". What was he supposed to do, drag everyone up to
> > Cunego and blow Saeco's big game?
>
> > He was totally stuck. Only chance Simoni had was if the
> > group caught Cunego for him, which they couldn't do...
>
> cyclingnews talked about Simoni having a go which was very
> closely followed by Popo. Then Cunego went and no one
> followed.
>
> This leads me to wonder: did Simoni not go hard enough -
> was Cunego's acceleration that much more powerful? Or did
> they just not consider him dangerous enough (which in
> retrospect was a big mistake)? I think it would have been
> necessary to have watched to get a good answer to these
> questions.

I expect Simoni said, "Go up the road, I'll join you after I
shake these losers and we'll 1/2 the finish." To which
Cunego repied, "Gotcha."

--Ziiiiip--

Then Gibo waits a to see if anyone rises to the bait and
when they don't tries to hit the gas himself.

-pokitta- -pokitta- -pokitta- -POONK!-

And then wisely decides to just eyeball Popo and noodle
along with the group.

Meanwhile, Cunego gets word that Gibo is going to sit tight
so he kicks in the afterburners, knowing he has a rest day
coming up to recover and leaves it all on the road, burying
everyone, including Gibo.

Works out well for Damiano Cunego (that name again C-U-N-E-G-
O, soon to be avalible on lunch boxes, glasses,
commemorative plates and his own exclusive brand of chamois
lube (with or without capers)), as he's got such a lead it's
now unthinkable to have him working for Simoni.

Looking back at the dominance of the Giro by two teams, it's
pretty much a bummer that so few of the top teams chose to
come play. Sad too, that Kelme-CV (featureing Valverde) was
told not to come.

 

[Wayne Pein]

Tom Schulenburg wrote:

> "Wayne Pein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Anybody have a clue as to why Wegmann absolutely buried
> > himself on the
> flats
> > with the Cunego group that had 2 other Saecos, only to
> > pop like a balloon
> well
> > before they even got to the final climb? Phil couldn't
> > figure it out.
> Perhaps
> > Wegmann is pitching for a switch to Saeco or Saeco
> > offered reparations? Or
> is
> > he just a dope?
> >
> > Wayne
> >
>
> Wegmann is not a climber and wasn't going to pick up any
> points on the final climb regardless. By helping Saeco
> out, they'll let him attack early and pick up a few more
> mountain points to ensure he holds the Green.
>
> -T

Yes, makes total sense. Reparations in the form of Green
jersey, not in that other green.

But I thought it was illegal for teams to collude. With
Cunego quoted as saying Wegmann is his friend and he will
help him to the green, that is clearly collusion.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/may04/-
may26news2

I think the analysis in this thread has been spot on.

I wonder if there are fractured allegiances within Saeco.
Clearly Tonti and Mazzo must have known they were putting
alleged team leader Gibo into a difficult situation, and
Cunego was all too happy to turn the screws as tight as
possible. I'm looking forward to Cunego vs Cibo. I wonder if
Cibo is saving something for Le Tour?

Wayne

 

[Robert Chung]

Wayne Pein wrote:
> But I thought it was illegal for teams to collude.

The collusion is what makes cycling so much more interesting
than other sports.

 

[Tom Schulenburg]

"Robert Chung" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Jeff Jones wrote:
> >
> > What did surprise me was how much time Cunego gained
> > before they really started to chase. He had something
> > like 3 minutes before Alessio regrouped and led the
> > tempo making. There were more riders in that bunch who
> > could have contributed too.
>
> I was surprised that most of the time was made up by
> Mazzoleni leading the way for Cunego on the descent of the
> Furcia -- I think Cunego had less than a minute on
> Popovych (and Simoni) at the top. Tonti had fun waving and
> mugging at the camera when he dropped out of the big
> leading group to wait for Mazzoleni and Cunego, then went
> to serious work when they caught up.
>

It sounded like it was a miscalculation by Simoni/Saeco. I
think they really expected Popo and Garzelli to chase. Maybe
they should have had Tonti and Mazzoleni drop back and help
Simoni on the attack?

-T

 

[Robert Chung]

Tom Schulenburg wrote:
>
> It sounded like it was a miscalculation by Simoni/Saeco. I
> think they really expected Popo and Garzelli to chase.

Remember that in stage 3 a roughly similar setup occurred:
Cunego attacked, Popovych reacted and basically pulled
Simoni up, then Simoni countered and won the stage and the
pink jersey. I think that's why Popovych didn't try to go
with Cunego -- he was afraid that it would turn out the same
way again, and he wasn't going to get burned the same way
twice (instead, he got burned a different way). Ewoud
pointed out that Popovych predicted that Cunego would go on
the Forcia, and that he would not respond.

> Maybe they should have had Tonti and Mazzoleni drop back
> and help Simoni on the attack?

That would have been nuts.

 

[Faster Bordello]

Wayne Pein wrote:

> Tom Schulenburg wrote:
>
>
>>"Wayne Pein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>Anybody have a clue as to why Wegmann absolutely buried
>>>himself on the
>>
>>flats
>>
>>>with the Cunego group that had 2 other Saecos, only to
>>>pop like a balloon
>>
>>well
>>
>>>before they even got to the final climb? Phil couldn't
>>>figure it out.
>>
>>Perhaps
>>
>>>Wegmann is pitching for a switch to Saeco or Saeco
>>>offered reparations? Or
>>
>>is
>>
>>>he just a dope?
>>>
>>>Wayne
>>>
>>
>>Wegmann is not a climber and wasn't going to pick up any
>>points on the final climb regardless. By helping Saeco
>>out, they'll let him attack early and pick up a few more
>>mountain points to ensure he holds the Green.
>>
>>-T
>
>
> Yes, makes total sense. Reparations in the form of Green
> jersey, not in that other green.
>
> But I thought it was illegal for teams to collude. With
> Cunego quoted as saying Wegmann is his friend and he will
> help him to the green, that is clearly collusion.
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/may04/ma-
> y26news2
>
>
> I think the analysis in this thread has been spot on.
>
> I wonder if there are fractured allegiances within Saeco.
> Clearly Tonti and Mazzo must have known they were putting
> alleged team leader Gibo into a difficult situation, and
> Cunego was all too happy to turn the screws as tight as
> possible. I'm looking forward to Cunego vs Cibo. I wonder
> if Cibo is saving something for Le Tour?
>
> Wayne
>
>
>
The way I understood "collusion" is that it's veerry baaad
for two teams to work together for one rider (like they all
feared QSD and Relax might
do). Whereas the "little deals" that take place such as
yesterdays "I'll let you hold your green jersey as long
as you work in my break" are the fun part of cycling.....

 

[Tom Schulenburg]

"Robert Chung" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Tom Schulenburg wrote:
> >
> > It sounded like it was a miscalculation by Simoni/Saeco.
> > I think they really expected Popo and Garzelli to chase.
>
> Remember that in stage 3 a roughly similar setup occurred:
> Cunego attacked, Popovych reacted and basically pulled
> Simoni up, then Simoni countered and won the stage and the
> pink jersey. I think that's why Popovych didn't try to go
> with Cunego -- he was afraid that it would turn out the
> same way again, and he wasn't going to get burned the same
> way twice (instead, he got burned a different way). Ewoud
> pointed out that Popovych predicted that Cunego would go
> on the Forcia, and that he would not respond.
>
> > Maybe they should have had Tonti and Mazzoleni drop back
> > and help Simoni on the attack?
>
> That would have been nuts.
>
>

I guess the bigger question is how commited Saeco is/was to
having Simoni win the race? Did they really need to screw
around with having Cunego attack? I thought Simoni was
strong enough to take away the time from Popo on his own
(over the remaining stages.) Are they more worried about
Gonchar at this point?

-T

 

[Wayne Pein]

Faster Bordello wrote:

>
> The way I understood "collusion" is that it's veerry baaad
> for two teams to work together for one rider (like they
> all feared QSD and Relax might
> do). Whereas the "little deals" that take place such as
> yesterdays "I'll let you hold your green jersey as long
> as you work in my break" are the fun part of
> cycling.....

It's hard to believe that the Green jersey is considered a
"little deal," on the same level as adversaries working
together in the break. This is especially true when Cunego
boldly announces the deal to the media. I think Saeco and
Gerol should be fined.

Wayne

 

[Bob Schwartz]

Wayne Pein <[email protected]> wrote:
> I think Saeco and Gerol should be fined.

That would teach riders to not talk about it. It'd still
happen though.

The major North American sports would work the same way if
there were multiple teams in play on the same field. You
can't stop people from talking to each other.

And count me among those that think it adds to the sport
rather than detracts from it.

Bob Schwartz [email protected]

 

[Robert Chung]

Tom Schulenburg wrote:
>
> I guess the bigger question is how commited Saeco is/was
> to having Simoni win the race? Did they really need to
> screw around with having Cunego attack? I thought Simoni
> was strong enough to take away the time from Popo on his
> own (over the remaining stages.) Are they more worried
> about Gonchar at this point?

I think that most teams usually commit to whoever they think
has the best chance of winning. Saeco was in the luxurious
position of having a one-two combo: you go with the Cunego
attack as Popovych did in stage 3, and Simoni burns you on
the counter; having been thus burned by the Cunego feint,
you stay with Simoni, as Popovych did in stage 16, and
Cunego waves good-bye and takes the pink. Popovych was
isolated; perhaps just as importantly, Noe was also isolated
since Pellizotti was OTB. The Alessio chase couldn't begin
until Cunego was so far up the road that the issue at that
point was just damage control. Having two Saecos up the road
(Tonti in the early break, Mazzoleni halfway up) was key.

Very cool. To steal Tosi's line, it was like the long
preparation for a knife hit.

 

[Bob Schwartz]

Robert Chung <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Maybe they should have had Tonti and Mazzoleni drop back
>> and help Simoni on the attack?

> That would have been nuts.

I think it would have been a great caper.

Bob Schwartz [email protected]

 

[Kenny]

"Tom Schulenburg" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "Robert Chung" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:2hn052Ff4sklU1@uni-
> berlin.de...
> > Tom Schulenburg wrote:
> > >
> > > It sounded like it was a miscalculation by
> > > Simoni/Saeco. I think they really expected Popo and
> > > Garzelli to chase.
> >
> > Remember that in stage 3 a roughly similar setup
> > occurred: Cunego attacked, Popovych reacted and
> > basically pulled Simoni up, then Simoni countered and
> > won the stage and the pink jersey. I think that's why
> > Popovych didn't try to go with Cunego -- he was afraid
> > that it would turn out the same way again, and he wasn't
> > going to get burned the same way twice (instead, he got
> > burned a different way). Ewoud pointed out that Popovych
> > predicted that Cunego would go on the Forcia, and that
> > he would not respond.
> >
> > > Maybe they should have had Tonti and Mazzoleni drop
> > > back and help Simoni on the attack?
> >
> > That would have been nuts.
> >
> >
>
> I guess the bigger question is how commited Saeco is/was
> to having Simoni win the race? Did they really need to
> screw around with having Cunego attack? I thought Simoni
> was strong enough to take away the time from Popo on his
> own (over the remaining stages.) Are they more worried
> about Gonchar at this point?

I wonder how serious Gontchar's threat would be if there
were two ITT (as usual in GT's) in this year's Giro. He
never climbed better than this year, now finishing 5th in
the group of cunego on Bormeo.

 

[David N. Welton]

[email protected] (Kenny) writes:

> I wonder how serious Gontchar's threat would be if there
> were two ITT (as usual in GT's) in this year's Giro. He
> never climbed better than this year, now finishing 5th in
> the group of cunego on Bormeo.

Yes, I was thinking of that myself... I'm impressed. He's
been around for a while too. His team, which isn't that big,
must sure be happy.

--
David N. Welton Consulting: http://www.dedasys.com/
Personal: http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/ Free Software:
http://www.dedasys.com/freesoftware/ Apache Tcl:
http://tcl.apache.org/