Individual travel in Tibet

Discussion in 'rec.bicycles.rides archive' started by Per LöWdin, Dec 22, 2003.

  1. Per LöWdin

    Per LöWdin Guest

    Rumour has it that individual travel is permitted in Tibet again. Can anyone confirm or refute this?
    We are thinking of cycling from Yunnan to Lhasa and wind up in Kathmandu if it is possible without
    hassles from the authorities.

    Would be utterly grateful for any updates on the situation in Tibet.

    Per http://www.lowdin.nu/MTB/MTB.html
     
    Tags:


  2. >Rumour has it that individual travel is permitted in Tibet again. Can anyone confirm or refute
    >this? We are thinking of cycling from Yunnan to Lhasa and wind up in Kathmandu if it is possible
    >without hassles from the authorities.

    I don't know for certain. However, my suggestion is to subscribe and ask the question on The
    Oriental List. See here for instructions. http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html

    The topic of overland travel to Tibet comes up periodically. From a discussion on the list last
    week, travel from Chengdu was still closed. Travel is allowed via Golmud. The situations appear to
    vary over time and the Oriental List is a good source to keep up.

    --mev, Mike Vermeulen

    p.s. If you do end up cycling overland, please post details or a trip report. A cycling trip from
    Delhi to Beijing still in the dreams...
     
  3. "Per Löwdin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Rumour has it that individual travel is permitted in Tibet again. Can
    anyone
    > confirm or refute this? We are thinking of cycling from Yunnan to Lhasa
    and

    Why don't you ask the Chinese authority?
     
  4. On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 18:20:39 +0200, the renowned "Markku Grönroos"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >
    >"Per Löwdin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]...
    >> Rumour has it that individual travel is permitted in Tibet again. Can
    >anyone
    >> confirm or refute this? We are thinking of cycling from Yunnan to Lhasa
    >and
    >
    >Why don't you ask the Chinese authority?

    They are not always a reliable source of information on such matters.

    Best regards, Spehro Pefhany
    --
    "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" [email protected] Info for manufacturers:
    http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
     
  5. "Spehro Pefhany" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 18:20:39 +0200, the renowned "Markku Grönroos" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >
    > >"Per Löwdin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >news:[email protected]...
    > >> Rumour has it that individual travel is permitted in Tibet again. Can
    > >anyone
    > >> confirm or refute this? We are thinking of cycling from Yunnan to Lhasa
    > >and
    > >
    > >Why don't you ask the Chinese authority?
    >
    > They are not always a reliable source of information on such matters.
    >
    Who is more reliable on a decision to be made by Chinese? Someone in this group?
     
  6. Miguel Cruz

    Miguel Cruz Guest

    Markku Grönroos <[email protected]> wrote:
    > "Spehro Pefhany" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> "Markku Grönroos" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>> "Per Löwdin" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>> Rumour has it that individual travel is permitted in Tibet again. Can anyone confirm or refute
    >>>> this? We are thinking of cycling from Yunnan to Lhasa
    >>>
    >>> Why don't you ask the Chinese authority?
    >>
    >> They are not always a reliable source of information on such matters.
    >
    > Who is more reliable on a decision to be made by Chinese? Someone in this group?

    The problem is that "the Chinese authority" is a many-headed creature. What someone at your local
    consulate tells you may have nothing to do with the decision actually made by the official in the
    provincial town you have to pass through en route to Tibet. Short of hiring someone to go attempt
    the trip on your behalf and report back, getting recent testimonials from other travelers is the
    best way to find out the real scoop.

    miguel
    --
    Hundreds of travel photos from around the world: http://travel.u.nu/
     
  7. Kris

    Kris Guest

    On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 18:20:39 +0200, "Markku Grönroos"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >
    >"Per Löwdin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]...
    >> Rumour has it that individual travel is permitted in Tibet again. Can
    >anyone
    >> confirm or refute this? We are thinking of cycling from Yunnan to Lhasa
    >and
    >
    >Why don't you ask the Chinese authority?
    >

    Your reply, though meant well and seemingly logical, did make me smile. Whoever has ever dealt with
    the Chinese authority knows the answer to this question ;)

    Kris
     
  8. Per LöWdin

    Per LöWdin Guest

    > p.s. If you do end up cycling overland, please post details or a trip report. A cycling trip from
    > Delhi to Beijing still in the dreams...

    Sure would, though, I am afraid there has become so much traffic that it would not be much fun
    through large parts of India and China.

    Just recently, there was a rumour that they allow individual travel in Tibet again, if they do, so
    it is reasonably predictable, we would like to start in Northern Yunnan, Dali, Lijang or Zongdhian,
    and make it across eastern Tibet to Lhasa, possibly with a detour to Khailas, and end in Kathmandu.
    Should be splendid in July and August as most of the route would be in rain shadow.

    Per http://lowdin.nu
     
  9. Kevan Smith

    Kevan Smith Guest

    On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 21:48:12 +0100, Kris <[email protected]> from -= Belgacom
    Usenet Service =- wrote:

    >On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 18:20:39 +0200, "Markku Grönroos" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>
    >>"Per Löwdin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>news:[email protected]...
    >>> Rumour has it that individual travel is permitted in Tibet again. Can
    >>anyone
    >>> confirm or refute this? We are thinking of cycling from Yunnan to Lhasa
    >>and
    >>
    >>Why don't you ask the Chinese authority?
    >>
    >
    >Your reply, though meant well and seemingly logical, did make me smile. Whoever has ever dealt with
    >the Chinese authority knows the answer to this question ;)

    Why don't you just get a bunch of guns and a kickin' bike and go in there all Rambo like and
    liberate the Tibetan people from their brutal dictator. It's The American Way! Jai Guru Deva BOOM!
    Maybe you can get some air support from rec.aviation.

    --
    real e-mail addy: kevansmith23 at yahoo dot com
    I didn't order any WOO-WOO ... Maybe a YUBBA ... But no WOO-WOO!
     
  10. On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 15:15:12 -0600, the renowned Kevan Smith
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Why don't you just get a bunch of guns and a kickin' bike and go in there all Rambo like and
    >liberate the Tibetan people from their brutal dictator. It's The American Way! Jai Guru Deva BOOM!
    >Maybe you can get some air support from rec.aviation.

    No can do, Kevan. Too many powerful people are making too much money from China to allow any
    boat-rocking.

    Best regards, Spehro Pefhany
    --
    "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" [email protected] Info for manufacturers:
    http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
     
  11. Kris

    Kris Guest

    On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 15:15:12 -0600, Kevan Smith
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 21:48:12 +0100, Kris <[email protected]> from -= Belgacom Usenet Service
    >=- wrote:
    >
    >>On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 18:20:39 +0200, "Markku Grönroos" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >>>
    >>>"Per Löwdin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>>news:[email protected]...
    >>>> Rumour has it that individual travel is permitted in Tibet again. Can
    >>>anyone
    >>>> confirm or refute this? We are thinking of cycling from Yunnan to Lhasa
    >>>and
    >>>
    >>>Why don't you ask the Chinese authority?
    >>>
    >>
    >>Your reply, though meant well and seemingly logical, did make me smile. Whoever has ever dealt
    >>with the Chinese authority knows the answer to this question ;)
    >
    >Why don't you just get a bunch of guns and a kickin' bike and go in there all Rambo like and
    >liberate the Tibetan people from their brutal dictator. It's The American Way! Jai Guru Deva BOOM!
    >Maybe you can get some air support from rec.aviation.

    We're talking about Chinese bureaucracy, not Rambo or liberating Tibetans or whatever. Stick to the
    subject please.

    Kris
     
  12. On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 18:56:25 GMT, the renowned [email protected] (Miguel
    Cruz) wrote:

    >Markku Grönroos <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> "Spehro Pefhany" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>> "Markku Grönroos" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>> "Per Löwdin" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>>> Rumour has it that individual travel is permitted in Tibet again. Can anyone confirm or refute
    >>>>> this? We are thinking of cycling from Yunnan to Lhasa
    >>>>
    >>>> Why don't you ask the Chinese authority?
    >>>
    >>> They are not always a reliable source of information on such matters.
    >>
    >> Who is more reliable on a decision to be made by Chinese? Someone in this group?
    >
    >The problem is that "the Chinese authority" is a many-headed creature. What someone at your local
    >consulate tells you may have nothing to do with the decision actually made by the official in the
    >provincial town you have to pass through en route to Tibet. Short of hiring someone to go attempt
    >the trip on your behalf and report back, getting recent testimonials from other travelers is the
    >best way to find out the real scoop.

    Your local consulate (if they even bother to answer their phone) will probably tell you that you
    MUST book an expensive tour. I've had the gov't run CITS lie to my face (in Beijing).

    Best regards, Spehro Pefhany
    --
    "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" [email protected] Info for manufacturers:
    http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
     
  13. Kevan Smith

    Kevan Smith Guest

    On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 21:43:31 GMT, Spehro Pefhany
    <[email protected]> from Rather wrote:

    >On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 15:15:12 -0600, the renowned Kevan Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Why don't you just get a bunch of guns and a kickin' bike and go in there all Rambo like and
    >>liberate the Tibetan people from their brutal dictator. It's The American Way! Jai Guru Deva BOOM!
    >>Maybe you can get some air support from rec.aviation.
    >
    >No can do, Kevan. Too many powerful people are making too much money from China to allow any
    >boat-rocking.

    Like Wal-Mart.

    Hmmm ..... bombing Tibet with Wal-Mart bikes ......

    --
    real e-mail addy: kevansmith23 at yahoo dot com
    mouse cuts a dog hence
     
  14. Kevan Smith

    Kevan Smith Guest

    On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 22:45:30 +0100, Kris <[email protected]> from -= Belgacom
    Usenet Service =- wrote:

    >On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 15:15:12 -0600, Kevan Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 21:48:12 +0100, Kris <[email protected]> from -= Belgacom Usenet Service
    >>=- wrote:
    >>
    >>>On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 18:20:39 +0200, "Markku Grönroos" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>
    >>>>"Per Löwdin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>>>news:[email protected]...
    >>>>> Rumour has it that individual travel is permitted in Tibet again. Can
    >>>>anyone
    >>>>> confirm or refute this? We are thinking of cycling from Yunnan to Lhasa
    >>>>and
    >>>>
    >>>>Why don't you ask the Chinese authority?
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>>Your reply, though meant well and seemingly logical, did make me smile. Whoever has ever dealt
    >>>with the Chinese authority knows the answer to this question ;)
    >>
    >>Why don't you just get a bunch of guns and a kickin' bike and go in there all Rambo like and
    >>liberate the Tibetan people from their brutal dictator. It's The American Way! Jai Guru Deva BOOM!
    >>Maybe you can get some air support from rec.aviation.
    >
    >We're talking about Chinese bureaucracy, not Rambo or liberating Tibetans or whatever. Stick to the
    >subject please.

    OK, it seems to me that if you go to Tibet and spend any dough, then you are supporting the Chinese
    invasion and occupation of a sovereign country. Now, if you could do it without helping China .....

    --
    real e-mail addy: kevansmith23 at yahoo dot com
    In Newark the laundromats are open 24 hours a day!
     
  15. Per LöWdin

    Per LöWdin Guest

    > Your local consulate (if they even bother to answer their phone) will probably tell you that you
    > MUST book an expensive tour. I've had the gov't run CITS lie to my face (in Beijing).

    Yes, CITS is a leech like organisation, we travelled in Tibet in 1996,
    http://www.lowdin.nu/Treks/Hiddenvalley/Hiddentrek1.html. Then, they clamped down on all individual
    travel. When they refused to sell us bus tickets to Shigatse and referred us to CITS we chose to
    abort our journey in Tibet, took a flight next day to Kathmandu and went to the Hidden Valley
    instead. The less one has to do with CITS the better.

    Per http://lowdin.nu
     
  16. Kris

    Kris Guest

    >>
    >>We're talking about Chinese bureaucracy, not Rambo or liberating Tibetans or whatever. Stick to
    >>the subject please.
    >
    >OK, it seems to me that if you go to Tibet and spend any dough, then you are supporting the Chinese
    >invasion and occupation of a sovereign country. Now, if you could do it without helping China .....

    Excellent idea. Let's see what happens... We concince the original poster not to go to Tibet.
    Chinese Intelligence in Beijing intercepts our postings on Usenet. Big panic among the Communist
    leaders. Emergency meeting. "A few backpackers are not coming to Tibet any more... Exactly what we
    feared... Things are going very wrong in our Motherland China, the tourists are not coming any more,
    oh, we have to do something, China can't survive without tourists".

    They decide to pull out of Tibet as quickly as possible. Of course, in the process they also remove
    the roads, hospitals, schools, telecommunication infrastructure, waterworks,... they built and leave
    the Tibetan people to rot in the same state they were in before the Chinese invasion.

    My point, a) you will not make ANY difference (same as not visiting Myanmar will change a single
    thing) and b) it's not ALL bad the Chinese did and do in Tibet.

    Kris
     
  17. Kevan Smith

    Kevan Smith Guest

    On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 09:32:22 +0100, Kris <[email protected]> from -= Belgacom
    Usenet Service =- wrote:

    >>>
    >>>We're talking about Chinese bureaucracy, not Rambo or liberating Tibetans or whatever. Stick to
    >>>the subject please.
    >>
    >>OK, it seems to me that if you go to Tibet and spend any dough, then you are supporting the
    >>Chinese invasion and occupation of a sovereign country. Now, if you could do it without helping
    >>China .....
    >
    >Excellent idea. Let's see what happens... We concince the original poster not to go to Tibet.
    >Chinese Intelligence in Beijing intercepts our postings on Usenet. Big panic among the Communist
    >leaders. Emergency meeting. "A few backpackers are not coming to Tibet any more... Exactly what we
    >feared... Things are going very wrong in our Motherland China, the tourists are not coming any
    >more, oh, we have to do something, China can't survive without tourists".
    >
    >They decide to pull out of Tibet as quickly as possible. Of course, in the process they also remove
    >the roads, hospitals, schools, telecommunication infrastructure, waterworks,... they built and
    >leave the Tibetan people to rot in the same state they were in before the Chinese invasion.
    >
    >My point, a) you will not make ANY difference (same as not visiting Myanmar will change a single
    >thing) and b) it's not ALL bad the Chinese did and do in Tibet.

    Just the killing, raping and torturing stuff is bad, I suppose. And that's bad enough to make me
    want to keep my money out of their hands. Fat chance I have, though, seeing as how they own our
    economy with cheap consumer goods.

    Here's a clue for you: it's admirable to sacrifice personal pleasure for a noble principle.

    --
    real e-mail addy: kevansmith23 at yahoo dot com
    Where's the Coke machine? Tell me a joke!!
     
  18. Per Löwdin

    Per Löwdin Guest

    > Just the killing, raping and torturing stuff is bad, I suppose. And that's
    bad
    > enough to make me want to keep my money out of their hands. Fat chance I
    have,
    > though, seeing as how they own our economy with cheap consumer goods.

    No doubt the US Tibet policy is totally spineless. As is most other countries. With regard to
    boycotts or where the money goes you can do a lot with regard to how you travel. Go on a tour with
    the CITS and only a minuscle part of what you spend will trickle down to Tibetans in menial
    positions, whereas quite a few Chinese will make a good cut at the same time as it will make the
    Chinese occupation appear legitimate. The CITS may even make sure one is only taken to places where
    one can´t see or realise that a genocide is going on.

    On the other hand cycling through you will spend most money in Tibetan road side restaurants and
    meet lots of Tibetans, the Chinese are largely concentrated to the towns. Indeed, by just asking if
    it can be done the issue of the Chinese occupation of Tibet is raised and made obvious. If there was
    not an occupation the question would not be posed.

    Per http://lowdin.nu
     
  19. Per LöWdin

    Per LöWdin Guest

    > Who is more reliable on a decision to be made by Chinese?

    Markku: are you at all aware of Sino-Tibetan relations? The Chinese have no more right to be there
    than Russia or Sweden has had in their claims to Finland. Tibet is occupied.

    In fact the case of Finland offers some hope. The Finns survived hundreds of years of Swedish
    and Russian occupation. Hopefully, the Tibetans may do the same and emerge as an independent
    nation one day.

    > Someone in this group?

    Yes!

    Per http://lowdin.nu
     
  20. "Per Löwdin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > > Who is more reliable on a decision to be made by Chinese?
    >
    > Markku: are you at all aware of Sino-Tibetan relations? The Chinese have no more right to be there
    > than Russia or Sweden has had in their claims to Finland. Tibet is occupied.
    >
    It IS the Chinese who control visits to Tibet. Nobody cares about such claims of powerless Swedes.
    Actually my suggestion is to contact a Chinese agency to find out these technicalities. It might be
    far more laborous then than to get similar piece of information concerning most other countries.
    Somebody suggested a Lonely Planet database, which may turn to be a fertile piece of advive.
     
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